The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Pentax 645Z and the price of MF

gazwas

Active member
Digital Transitions / Team Phase One already offers brand new Credo 40 kits at $13k with a lens. Other options like a new P45+ for 10k (back only) and a variety of pre-owned digital backs (since the sensor is separate from the body and the back itself does not wear and tear and can be expected to work for well over a decade) at lower than 10k, with warranty, new accessories and dealer support.

Considering the advantages over the 645Z I think that these are a reasonable price delta for many clients. I don't expect Team Phase One to move much lower in price as our sales have only increased since the launch of the 645Z, presumably because the more people look into and consider medium format the more people Phase One has the chance to work with.
I was thinking something a bit more current technology than a back using sensor tech from 2008 and a body from 1986.

I know you continually tell us Phase sales are booming which is great for dealers and the share holders/equity company but I personally see that as a negative as there is no incentive to push boundries or price points. Phase should take a leaf out of Profoto's book and worry less about being a luxury brand and produce a system more people can use. I no longer use a compact camera because I have my iPhone. If Phase or Blad priced their cameras like top tier (or just above) 35mm cameras every serious photigrapher would jump all over them and leave 35mm in the dust even with MF's more expensive lenses. In the 35mm market HQ lens sales (Zeiss, Sigma Art etc) is a growing market so people see the value in good glass and don't mind spending meaning potentially excellent profit margins.
 

tjv

Active member
I can't help but laugh when I read about the fantastic deals on the DF+ and Credo 40. I like the back but honestly, I woudn't take the DF+ body even if it was given to me. This is my very subjective opionion of course, but it seems I'm not the only one that feels this way.
For tech camera users like myself, the CFV-50c fits a great space in the market. It's more expensive that the 645Z though.
 

Bryan Stephens

Workshop Member
gazwas

The fact that Phase One keeps dragging their feet with regards to releasing an updated and more user friendly body they keep losing customers. I am just one small example.

I bought into the Phase DF system 3 years ago, and coming from Hasselblad I was somewhat disappointed as the camera just didn't feel right and was not finished in the same manner as their digital backs. All I kept hearing from the dealers was that Phase kept promising a new and much improved body coming in the near future.

After Photokina, Phase missed the boat yet again, and I and quite a few others that I know said enough is enough and dumped their DF+ bodies.

I still love my IQ back and was and am still hoping that Phase does come up with a camera body that compliments the back and doesn't appear to be an afterthought the way the DF body did appear. If that happens, I may go back into that system, but otherwise, I am quite happy with my tech cam, and using my 35mm digital for other needs.
 
I can't help but laugh when I read about the fantastic deals on the DF+ and Credo 40. I like the back but honestly, I woudn't take the DF+ body even if it was given to me. This is my very subjective opionion of course, but it seems I'm not the only one that feels this way.
For tech camera users like myself, the CFV-50c fits a great space in the market. It's more expensive that the 645Z though.
And the 645Z will take Hasselblad lenses, including the focal plane ones. No leaf shutter though (I bet somebody could design an adapter that would fire it though!)
 

jerome_m

Member
Going by B&H prices, $5,500 is quite a bit less than $6,800...
I was comparing the 28mm to the HCD 28, which is $5,910 at B&H.


I've been lurking around for years and the many people who post here and on LuLa have often done comparisons that I remember were regularly in favor of tech cam lenses when it comes to corner sharpness.

I don't have ready access to medium format gear where I live and had to buy overseas, but if someone were willing to do a shootout between the SLR super wides and a tech lens to prove there isn't a very large difference, then I'll shut up about this, but so far you're the only person that has claimed the opposite of what everyone else says.

I posted some tests of the 24mm and 28mm here: “Field” test of Hasselblad H wide-angle lenses. and also there:

24mm: HCD 4.8/24
28mm: HCD 4/28

I don't see much corner degradation on these particular lenses. People are free to do the same test with a tech cam (or with PhaseOne, Leica S, etc...). All one needs is an open field and a tripod.
 

jerome_m

Member
For the most part, it is true that tech cam lenses are sharper corner to corner.
I have yet to see samples of that.

If the new 35mm sensors keep getting crammed with more pixels, they are going to have to be absolutely certain that there are lenses capable of handling all of that extra information. If not, even the slightest flaw or aberration is going to be extremely obvious in the image.
The new 35mm sensors will be crammed with more pixels and lenses already struggled with the cameras from 2009. This may indeed be one of the reasons why Sony decided to invest the money to develop a MF sensor (the one in the 645z): they think their strategy of getting the users to always buy more pixels will hit a limit in 24x36. But only time will tell.
 
I was comparing the 28mm to the HCD 28, which is $5,910 at B&H.
Same focal length, but different field of view, the HCD24/28 lenses only accept sensors up to 37x49mm while the 28XL covers the full 40x54mm, thus the HCD24 and 28XL will both result in the same subject framing if you account for sensor size. I go by framing since it only makes sense to do comparisons based on how a lens will used and not the number attached to it.
 

Dogs857

New member
I can't help but laugh when I read about the fantastic deals on the DF+ and Credo 40. I like the back but honestly, I woudn't take the DF+ body even if it was given to me. This is my very subjective opionion of course, but it seems I'm not the only one that feels this way.
For tech camera users like myself, the CFV-50c fits a great space in the market. It's more expensive that the 645Z though.
When I was looking to buy my recent back I was told about the Credo deal by my dealer. I really like the back as well and would have gone that way except in Australia I could only get a good price if I bought the camera as well. Turned me off the whole thing as I also use a tech camera and had no need for an aging body that I didn't want and would have a very hard time selling. It's a shame as I noticed great pricing for the Credo 40 in the USA but, as usual, in Australia we were left out again.
 

tjv

Active member
It could be worse on the being left out of deals front, you could live in NZ!

When I was looking to buy my recent back I was told about the Credo deal by my dealer. I really like the back as well and would have gone that way except in Australia I could only get a good price if I bought the camera as well. Turned me off the whole thing as I also use a tech camera and had no need for an aging body that I didn't want and would have a very hard time selling. It's a shame as I noticed great pricing for the Credo 40 in the USA but, as usual, in Australia we were left out again.
 
Last edited:

jerome_m

Member
Then you have never shot a tech cam. ;)
I said "I have yet to see samples showing that wide angle tech cam lenses are sharper corner to corner." You answer "Then you have never shot a tech cam".

Let me rephrase my opinion:

I have seen samples of wide angle tech cam lenses. Their corner sharpness was plagued by color shifts and general fuzziness. I have seen samples of wide angle SLR lenses. The worse ones had lower resolution around the 2/3 zone, but generally better corners than the tech cam lenses. The best wide-angle SLR lenses were generally more homogenous than their corresponding tech cam equivalents.

Tech cams have obvious advantages if one needs to shift or tilt, of course. Their longer lenses are generally excellent, we were only discussing wide angles here (24 and 28 mm specifically).

I will end this discussion here, since it is not related to the 645Z or the price of MF cameras.
 

algrove

Well-known member
And the 645Z will take Hasselblad lenses, including the focal plane ones. No leaf shutter though (I bet somebody could design an adapter that would fire it though!)
I have used my Hassy 250/5.6 CF V lens on the 645Z without issue using the Fotodiox adapter. Sure one must MF, but the 645Z beeps and shows you where you are in focus in the OVF which I found amazing for an adapted lens. I read Ming Thein liked the Hassy 150 on the 645Z very much. I have noit yet tried mine.

I sold my P45+ mostly due to connection issues on my SWC and 503CW. Decided on the 645Z and for about an even money switch the 645Z is more to my liking with ease of use in a modern body with the latest CMOS sensor.

Lenses-

I have the new 55/2.8 and it is super sharp even hand held which is not my strong point. It retails in the $1200 range and is worth every cent to me. I also have the 28-45 and even though it is a beast (weighs more than the camra body) it produces excellent images in all FL's I tried.

I found with every lens/extender purchased so far in the $100 to $800 range from Japan that their conditon assessment is more negative than the actual item, which is refreshing. I have now the 35/3.5, 80-160, 2x and 1.4x extenders and the 300/5.6 from Japan. I also picked up the new 90 Macro which was very slightly used (if ever) for 35% off the new price.

Have used the 80-160 with good and sharp results. Used the 25 with phenomenal results. I am used to Leica sharpness and these lenses do not disappoint. Personally I find myself cropping 645Z shots less than my 35mm I assume due to 44x33 images which often give me 40MP images even after cropping.

I found that exposing less to the right (oh gosh did I say that) like I often do with my Leicas yields very nice results and with being able to open up to 5 stops of shadow detail, I process my images very similar to Leica files.

The Pentaxforum can be useful to any prospective buyer, especially regarding lenses where they are rated by users in 5 categories. Also 645Z discussions have been thought provoking and make for good reading.

If anyone in the US is looking for aggressive pricing on the new 645Z, I might be able to help with one dealer I found who sells the body considerably less than B&H. Just for those doubting thomas's, I am not affiliated with this dealer in any way.

At $40 even the battery prices are welcomed by myself as I have purchased too many Leica M batteries for $190 which generally lasts about half the time that a 645Z battery lasts for me on one charge. B&H sells a battery replacement for $20 and it seems to function well from my experience.

OP-Trust my experiences help you decide. Forgot one thing about warranty. Inside the 645Z box in the US, Ricoh has decided to extend the one year warranty by an additional year, giving 2 years of warranty. What a welcomed policy. I did not know about this until I opened the new box only to read about this policy.
 

torger

Active member
I have noticed a recent increase in second hand sales here on the Swedish market. It's mainly Hassy systems as Hassy is the most common MFD system around here. It's not many new systems though, but 39 to 50 megapixel CCDs that's being sold. I think the reason is Canon's 5Ds and some now choose to leave rather than upgrading. Feels like the competition from below (135) hits harder than from the side (645z).

I don’t think Hassy or Phase One will reconsider pricing (it's too hard and risky), but will try to expand into other markets like luxury and industrial, and well, they're already doing it. Why compete if you don't have to?

Considering 645z I have heard a central Hassy representative say that Pentax is probably losing money on it (priced too low and selling poorly) and they expect prices to go up sooner or later. I don't know if they're right or if it's just wishful thinking. I haven't been able to find any numbers on how 645z sales are going. It would be interesting to see. If Hassy and Phase are hit from below, 645z shouldn't be immune either.
 

torger

Active member
The 44x33 40mp backs have been pushed down in price by the competition already, but it ends there. Products that lose mainstream attraction are then removed, and the clock is ticking for these.

As soon as 645 fullframe CMOS is here I think CCDs are done, because too few will want them. The 60 and 80 mp backs will be discontinued rather than priced lower.
 

Ken_R

New member
The 645z has three big issues that prevent it from smacking around PhaseOne and Hassy and causing a significant drop in price.

#1: Service and Support. Expect to be without your 645z/645d 8--10weeks if you need to send it in for service/repair.

#2: Tethering performance is lacking.

#3: Lenses. The new Pentax 645 lenses (with the exception of the 55mm) are not cheap. Leaf shutter AF lenses not available.

All three of those issues can be fixed by Ricoh/Pentax if they want to (im sure they have the money to do it). But it has not happened yet...

So Pentax, keep the new lenses under $3k USD, add some quick service and support and improve tethering (firmware?) and you will have a MUCH improved product without having to release a new one.
 
Considering 645z I have heard a central Hassy representative say that Pentax is probably losing money on it (priced too low and selling poorly) and they expect prices to go up sooner or later. I don't know if they're right or if it's just wishful thinking. I haven't been able to find any numbers on how 645z sales are going. It would be interesting to see. If Hassy and Phase are hit from below, 645z shouldn't be immune either.
Not true. Z sales outpace Hasselblads by a significant margin and I've seen numbers. This should not be a surprise. Whether they're taking a loss...idk. I doubt they would gamble that way. But by all accounts the Z is a success for Pentax.
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I have yet to see samples of that.
I can't vouch for what you have or not have seen personally, but there is no question at all that the sharpest wide angle lenses available at the moment are Schneider and Rodenstock tech camera wides. The 23HR, 28HR, 32HR, 40HR, 43XL, 60XL will all out perform any SLR wide.

Here, for instance, is a 32HR at 60mp:
28mm & 32mm Lens Comparison - DT Blog

Some of the older and lower performing tech camera lenses are "only good" rather than "exceedingly excellent". Maybe those are the ones you've seen samples from?
 

Bryan Stephens

Workshop Member
With regards to the 645 lens pricing, their lenses seem to be, for the most part half the cost of those of hassy and phase, so unless the image quality is severely lacking in comparison (I have not had the opportunity to use either the camera or the lenses) I don't see how much less expensive these lenses can be, especially since the body is already 45% of the cost to get into a similar system with Hassy and even less for Phase.
 

Bryan Stephens

Workshop Member
I can't vouch for what you have or not have seen personally, but there is no question at all that the sharpest wide angle lenses available at the moment are Schneider and Rodenstock tech camera wides. The 23HR, 28HR, 32HR, 40HR, 43XL, 60XL will all out perform any SLR wide.

Here, for instance, is a 32HR at 60mp:
28mm & 32mm Lens Comparison - DT Blog

Some of the older and lower performing tech camera lenses are "only good" rather than "exceedingly excellent". Maybe those are the ones you've seen samples from?
The three sharpest lenses that I have ever used personally are the 32HR, 40HR and 60XL
 
Top