Pentax 645Z and the price of MF

[Speedgraphic]

The 645z has three big issues that prevent it from smacking around PhaseOne and Hassy and causing a significant drop in price.

#1: Service and Support. Expect to be without your 645z/645d 8--10weeks if you need to send it in for service/repair.

#2: Tethering performance is lacking.

#3: Lenses. The new Pentax 645 lenses (with the exception of the 55mm) are not cheap. Leaf shutter AF lenses not available.

All three of those issues can be fixed by Ricoh/Pentax if they want to (im sure they have the money to do it). But it has not happened yet...

So Pentax, keep the new lenses under $3k USD, add some quick service and support and improve tethering (firmware?) and you will have a MUCH improved product without having to release a new one.

1. Phase and Hasselblad are not great either. Not like NPS or CPS, no way. But you could have 2 Z's for the price of one IQ250 kit so... (Plus the Z feels rock solid and has a 100k rated shutter which is great news, that's a subjective thing, I know.).

2. True. But they've always marketed it as a field camera. Weather sealing support is lacking on the Phase and Hassy, as is file redundancy and AF performance. They should add better tethering support, but not until they have a great leaf lens. And I agree, one or two great LS lenses would be a big deal.

3. Are the Phase/Hassy offerings dirt cheap? I wasn't aware they were having regular fire sales. Considering how cheap the body is and that the lenses are cheaper than the competitors I think they're doing fine. And as we've pointed out ad nauseum the old FA/A/67 options are of surprisingly good quality for budget minded photographers. Plus the whole Hasselblad V line.

I think you have to work pretty hard to convince yourself that there are serious problems with the Z. In my opinion there are 2 kinds of MFD photographers who should not buy one. Regular flash/studio photographers who need leaf shutters, and people wanting the tech cam option. There are simply other great options out there, and I don't think Pentax is or ever really has tried to satisfy those markets. I sort of like products that are targeted specific tasks, while not trying to be the swiss army knife of MFD cameras. Though I have to say the Z comes close.

 

[Chris Giles]

Considering the financial trouble Pentax got into before being acquired by Ricoh I can't see them selling the Z at a loss. There's more belief in Hasselblad reps talking up their product value or smacking the competition down than Ricoh doing something illogical as selling a product at a loss.

About two years ago I said that a company rep advised me that Hasselblad were working with Sony on a Medium Format CMOS. The UK rep phoned me and denied it wanting to know who'd told me this.

One year later. Sony MF CMOS.

It's not like they're made out of solid gold, if it was it would be worth £30,000 GBP (depending on the spot price).

 

[torger]

It shall be interesting to see how well Hassy and Phase will maintain their tech cam support with the transition to CMOS. Hassy just discontinued the best tech cam sensor in favour of CMOS, which we try hard to pretend it's a good for tech cams but it does need new wide angle optics to really work properly.

A fullframe CMOS sensor with the same technology will reduce compatibility further.

 

[jerome_m]

I can't vouch for what you have or not have seen personally, but there is no question at all that the sharpest wide angle lenses available at the moment are Schneider and Rodenstock tech camera wides. The 23HR, 28HR, 32HR, 40HR, 43XL, 60XL will all out perform any SLR wide.

Here, for instance, is a 32HR at 60mp:
28mm & 32mm Lens Comparison - DT Blog

Some of the older and lower performing tech camera lenses are "only good" rather than "exceedingly excellent". Maybe those are the ones you've seen samples from?

and

The three sharpest lenses that I have ever used personally are the 32HR, 40HR and 60XL

As I already wrote: I will end this discussion here, since it is not related to the 645Z or the price of MF cameras.

Please open another thread on tech cam lenses if you have info to post about them.

 

[dougpeterson]

1. Phase and Hasselblad are not great either. Not like NPS or CPS, no way.

I take issue with this. At Digital Transitions we put huge effort into providing excellent service that I think well exceeds NPS or CPS. We provide regular "service days" at our office where we offer many services for free which normally carry a nominal charge (replacement of sync ports, sensor cleaning, calibration, etc), have options for overnight shipment of a loaner back during any repair/service, carry an extensive inventory of units on hand to help us provide same-day loaners, have four full-time US-based highly-trained support staff (a much higher ratio, I would guess, of customer:support-staff than Nikon/Canon), thoroughly test every unit we sell (which is a redundant double-check of the testing and calibration Phase One does on every unit they ship), include training with all of our purchases, run more advanced training programs out of our office for those that want to dig deep into the hardware/software, and spend a huge amount of time doing R+D to know what recommendations to make to customers regarding lens selection, aperture selection, ISO range, software combinations etc.

And most body/lens repairs can be done inside the US at the New York service center with pretty fast turn around time.

 

[dougpeterson]

With regards to the 645 lens pricing, their lenses seem to be, for the most part half the cost of those of hassy and phase, so unless the image quality is severely lacking in comparison (I have not had the opportunity to use either the camera or the lenses) I don't see how much less expensive these lenses can be, especially since the body is already 45% of the cost to get into a similar system with Hassy and even less for Phase.

I don't think you're making an apples to apples comparison.

Pentax only has two currently available prime lenses with modern designs.

For the remaining lenses you should compare to the legacy Mamiya AF non-digital which share the same legacy film-era vintage. They are similarly priced with the Pentax legacy film-era lenses, and like Pentax's line, include some very good priceerformance options.

 

[algrove]

Ricoh tells me that repair work is farmed out to one place in the US at the moment.

 

[Speedgraphic]

I don't think you're making an apples to apples comparison.

Pentax only has two currently available prime lenses with modern designs.

For the remaining lenses you should compare to the legacy Mamiya AF non-digital which share the same legacy film-era vintage. They are similarly priced with the Pentax legacy film-era lenses, and like Pentax's line, include some very good priceerformance options.

Well you can still buy new 25mm F4s, it's unclear why they were discontinued, but I would imagine it's because their 28-45 is as great as it is. So far Pentax has had 2 MFD cameras out, one while undergoing pretty big internal shake ups. Give them some time! How many designed for digital lenses did Mamiya or Phase or Hasselblad have when Phase was on it's 2nd generation back?

And ignoring the old designs is fine when you want to be dismissive but they're all available brand spankin new and perform well. What's the problem? Would Jose Villa care if his 80mm f2 Planar was designed for digital when/if he eventually switches? I for one think it's great that I could shoot on a 645n, 67II, and 645Z all while using the same lenses.

 

[Chris Giles]

I love that old Pentax glass. It outshines the Canon stuff of which I know it REALLY well. On par and in many cases better than the Hasselblad HC glass too. (Personal opinion). That 300 A 645 lens at F4 has to be seen to be believed.

Though, as with anything photographic if there's nothing decent in the resulting frame it doesn't matter what you use

 

[tjv]

I love how these threads usually end up turning into a sales pitch for the U.S. Phase dealer network which is in no way shape or form indicative of the global dealer network.

 

[iiiNelson]

I love how these threads usually end up turning into a sales pitch for the U.S. Phase dealer network which is in no way shape or form indicative of the global dealer network.

Yeah... It seems about inevitable in every MF thread that Phase One Umbrella will get mentioned and that an attempt to clear out the remaining 40mp CCD back stock will ensue... Truth is you can't go wrong with any system and short of wanting to use tech cams/leaf shutters Pentax would be my preferred choice. The camera really is as responsive as a DSLR.

 

[voidshatter]

Well you can still buy new 25mm F4s, it's unclear why they were discontinued, but I would imagine it's because their 28-45 is as great as it is. .

Diglloyd did a review of the 645Z and strange enough though the DA 25mm f/4 performed very poorly in the corners when compared against a Zeiss 21mm mounted on a Sony A7R.

Initially I would have thought about astigmatism caused by sensor cover glass, but given the flange focal distance that shouldn't be the case. If it's not due to a poor sample then perhaps it has something to do with the microlens of the Sony CMOS or something else, which also might explain why Leica is stuck with their CMOSIS instead of using the Sony CMOS.

 

[Pradeep]

I have used my Hassy 250/5.6 CF V lens on the 645Z without issue using the Fotodiox adapter. Sure one must MF, but the 645Z beeps and shows you where you are in focus in the OVF which I found amazing for an adapted lens. I read Ming Thein liked the Hassy 150 on the 645Z very much. I have noit yet tried mine.

I sold my P45+ mostly due to connection issues on my SWC and 503CW. Decided on the 645Z and for about an even money switch the 645Z is more to my liking with ease of use in a modern body with the latest CMOS sensor.

Lenses-

I have the new 55/2.8 and it is super sharp even hand held which is not my strong point. It retails in the $1200 range and is worth every cent to me. I also have the 28-45 and even though it is a beast (weighs more than the camra body) it produces excellent images in all FL's I tried.

I found with every lens/extender purchased so far in the $100 to $800 range from Japan that their conditon assessment is more negative than the actual item, which is refreshing. I have now the 35/3.5, 80-160, 2x and 1.4x extenders and the 300/5.6 from Japan. I also picked up the new 90 Macro which was very slightly used (if ever) for 35% off the new price.

Have used the 80-160 with good and sharp results. Used the 25 with phenomenal results. I am used to Leica sharpness and these lenses do not disappoint. Personally I find myself cropping 645Z shots less than my 35mm I assume due to 44x33 images which often give me 40MP images even after cropping.

I found that exposing less to the right (oh gosh did I say that) like I often do with my Leicas yields very nice results and with being able to open up to 5 stops of shadow detail, I process my images very similar to Leica files.

The Pentaxforum can be useful to any prospective buyer, especially regarding lenses where they are rated by users in 5 categories. Also 645Z discussions have been thought provoking and make for good reading.

If anyone in the US is looking for aggressive pricing on the new 645Z, I might be able to help with one dealer I found who sells the body considerably less than B&H. Just for those doubting thomas's, I am not affiliated with this dealer in any way.

At $40 even the battery prices are welcomed by myself as I have purchased too many Leica M batteries for $190 which generally lasts about half the time that a 645Z battery lasts for me on one charge. B&H sells a battery replacement for $20 and it seems to function well from my experience.

OP-Trust my experiences help you decide. Forgot one thing about warranty. Inside the 645Z box in the US, Ricoh has decided to extend the one year warranty by an additional year, giving 2 years of warranty. What a welcomed policy. I did not know about this until I opened the new box only to read about this policy.

Wow, that is really useful info. Combined with what I've read from Chris Giles's review and other sites around, I am now convinced.

I just placed an order for the 645Z with my dealer (I've been buying all my gear from him for many years now). He is getting me the 55 2.8 lens free with the body as part of a deal that has just run out.

Your experience with the lenses will prove really useful as I build my system slowly.

Thank you.

 

[Pradeep]

The 645z has three big issues that prevent it from smacking around PhaseOne and Hassy and causing a significant drop in price.

#1: Service and Support. Expect to be without your 645z/645d 8--10weeks if you need to send it in for service/repair.

#2: Tethering performance is lacking.

#3: Lenses. The new Pentax 645 lenses (with the exception of the 55mm) are not cheap. Leaf shutter AF lenses not available.

All three of those issues can be fixed by Ricoh/Pentax if they want to (im sure they have the money to do it). But it has not happened yet...

So Pentax, keep the new lenses under $3k USD, add some quick service and support and improve tethering (firmware?) and you will have a MUCH improved product without having to release a new one.

#1. I had a shutter problem with my DF 645+, unfortunately just a month after my warranty ran out (should have read the fine print that the VA warranty only applied to the digital back). It had to be sent to Denmark for replacing the EPROM chip, cost me $700 and took six weeks.

#2. Absolutely of no interest to anybody not doing studio shoots, certainly no good for me.

#3. Phase/Schneider lenses are even more expensive and bulkier and the options for long lenses are severely limited. Most non-studio/flash photographers do not care about leaf shutters either, they are in fact a liability in terms of durability.

The lure of an all-in-one, weather sealed body, with good AF, high megapixel MF-sized CMOS sensor with superior DR is simply irresistible.

I predict the party will soon be over for some MF brands, it started with the A7R.

 

[iiiNelson]

Wow, that is really useful info. Combined with what I've read from Chris Giles's review and other sites around, I am now convinced.

I just placed an order for the 645Z with my dealer (I've been buying all my gear from him for many years now). He is getting me the 55 2.8 lens free with the body as part of a deal that has just run out.

Your experience with the lenses will prove really useful as I build my system slowly.

Thank you.

Congrats on your new camera. If I were in the market for a MF at this time the 645Z would be on my short list of options having handled a pre-release model early last year. I was able to try it out side by side with a 645D using the 33-55, 55, 45-85, and one of the telephoto lenses but I don't remember if it was the 120 or something longer off the top of my head.

The 645Z was a huge improvement in usability every way but both models make outstanding images. The 645Z fit's your hand like a glove and the button layout was slightly more natural to me initially but those are things you'd get used to over time anyway.

 

[Bryan Stephens]

If I were just getting into MFD then I would certainly opt for the 645z as I have come close a few times in switching from Phase to that system, except for the fact that I still enjoy shooting my tech cam.

 

[Pradeep]

If I were just getting into MFD then I would certainly opt for the 645z as I have come close a few times in switching from Phase to that system, except for the fact that I still enjoy shooting my tech cam.

And that is the key, isn't it Bryan. If you enjoy something you wouldn't give it up easily even if something 'better' came along. That is my problem. I was not enjoying the Phase, thinking all the time that this is not working for me and look how much money I paid for it.

 

[Shashin]

#1. I had a shutter problem with my DF 645+, unfortunately just a month after my warranty ran out (should have read the fine print that the VA warranty only applied to the digital back). It had to be sent to Denmark for replacing the EPROM chip, cost me $700 and took six weeks.

#2. Absolutely of no interest to anybody not doing studio shoots, certainly no good for me.

#3. Phase/Schneider lenses are even more expensive and bulkier and the options for long lenses are severely limited. Most non-studio/flash photographers do not care about leaf shutters either, they are in fact a liability in terms of durability.

The lure of an all-in-one, weather sealed body, with good AF, high megapixel MF-sized CMOS sensor with superior DR is simply irresistible.

I predict the party will soon be over for some MF brands, it started with the A7R.

In the states, Precision Camera is the service center for Pentax. I have just sent in my 645d for a bit of TLC, and they said it would be about 7 days. I have no idea where the 8-10 week turn around number comes from.

 

[BlinkingEye]

I predict the party will soon be over for some MF brands, it started with the A7R.

You really can't compare MF and 35mm format, but if you want to make that comparison, then you mean the Nikon D800/e not the Sony.

 

[Pradeep]

You really can't compare MF and 35mm format, but if you want to make that comparison, then you mean the Nikon D800/e not the Sony.

The first time I heard that statement was at a presentation in the Sony booth in October 2013 during the annual Photoplus Expo in New York. I forget who the presenter was but he had just switched from MF to the A7R (was one of the people on the test team).

Of course many pros are paid to become the mouthpiece for a company's product, but that is when I realized that there were significant changes on the horizon.

I am not suggesting for a moment that 35mm will cause MF to disappear, but unless the MF world wakes up to the realization that they can no longer command a huge price differential they will suffer considerably. Which is where I think Pentax has made a smart move. It is a better design, better sensor and costs way less than other MF brands. It does not quite have the glamorous pedigree of the big H or Leica but it does represent tremendous value for money.