Sinar lenses are rebadged Rodenstock?

[freaklikeme]

I sold my 645D to move to a Cambo Actus with my a7 as a back (roughly the same pixel density per area). I kept a couple of my Hassy lenses to use with the camera, the CF 40 FLE and CF 100, and while both are exactly what I was expecting performance-wise, both are... well, exactly what I expected. Not very high resolution but perfectly acceptable for the relatively low pixel density, good micro-contrast, lousy edges, some color issues that make for better mono conversions than corrected color prints, and image circles that don't completely fill either the 64x63mm or 76x51mm area the Actus can cover. For some things, I'm perfectly happy with them both, even though the 40 is huge and the FLE is fussy. But for some things I've got in mind for the summer, I want better options.

So, like I'm guessing everyone does when they purchase one of these, I started looking at the Schneider and Rodenstock digital lenses. I fell in love with the images I found from the Rodenstock APO-Sironar 55/4.5. Great focal length, usable wide open, nearly perfect by f/11, handles higher pixel densities well if I ever decide to upgrade, and enough recommended-usage area (96x72) to cover anything I want to shoot now and make a transition to the DB if I ever decided to go that route. My target was to acquire one a month or so in advance of my Montana trip in August, so I put it on my used search list and started re-engineering my budget to cover a new one in July if I didn't find one used.

Finding a used copy looked like it was going to be a challenge. Then I came across a used Sinar Sinaron Digital 55/4.5 at Adorama. I had nothing more than a passing familiarity with the brand, so I looked them up. The lenses on the English version of their site looked shockingly familiar after having stared at the photos of Rodenstocks. Some further research provided the common internet knowledge that Sinar rebrands Rodenstock lenses, and the only comparable "digital" model from Rodenstock is the APO-Sironar.

Assuming the lens arrives in shooting condition, did I really just get the lens I wanted for $400? Is that a good price for a user copy? Please feel free to burst my bubble. This dopey grin feels unnatural on my face.

 

[Paul2660]

I sold my 645D to move to a Cambo Actus with my a7 as a back (roughly the same pixel density per area). I kept a couple of my Hassy lenses to use with the camera, the CF 40 FLE and CF 100, and while both are exactly what I was expecting performance-wise, both are... well, exactly what I expected. Not very high resolution but perfectly acceptable for the relatively low pixel density, good micro-contrast, lousy edges, some color issues that make for better mono conversions than corrected color prints, and image circles that don't completely fill either the 64x63mm or 76x51mm area the Actus can cover. For some things, I'm perfectly happy with them both, even though the 40 is huge and the FLE is fussy. But for some things I've got in mind for the summer, I want better options.

So, like I'm guessing everyone does when they purchase one of these, I started looking at the Schneider and Rodenstock digital lenses. I fell in love with the images I found from the Rodenstock APO-Sironar 55/4.5. Great focal length, usable wide open, nearly perfect by f/11, handles higher pixel densities well if I ever decide to upgrade, and enough recommended-usage area (96x72) to cover anything I want to shoot now and make a transition to the DB if I ever decided to go that route. My target was to acquire one a month or so in advance of my Montana trip in August, so I put it on my used search list and started re-engineering my budget to cover a new one in July if I didn't find one used.

Finding a used copy looked like it was going to be a challenge. Then I came across a used Sinar Sinaron Digital 55/4.5 at Adorama. I had nothing more than a passing familiarity with the brand, so I looked them up. The lenses on the English version of their site looked shockingly familiar after having stared at the photos of Rodenstocks. Some further research provided the common internet knowledge that Sinar rebrands Rodenstock lenses, and the only comparable "digital" model from Rodenstock is the APO-Sironar.

Assuming the lens arrives in shooting condition, did I really just get the lens I wanted for $400? Is that a good price for a user copy? Please feel free to burst my bubble. This dopey grin feels unnatural on my face.

As I understand it, the Apo-Sironar Digital (pink band around lens) is the same as the Rodenstock HR Series which Rodenstock replaced with the HR-S series but dropped the 55 from that lineup. Just like they dropped the 90mm from the HR-W, HR, and Apo-Sironar Digital lineup.

Some say the Apo-Sironar's were hand picked from the general lens lineup at the time for the Sironar cameras.

I currently have both a 28mm and the older 90mm in the Apo-Sironar Digital brand and both are excellent lenses. The 28mm is still sold as the HR-S still with a pink band. The 90mm now is in the HR-SW with a yellow band.

The key to me is what color the band is on the lens, if your 55 comes with a pink band, you got a great deal. If it's a green band, then it's an older version, but still should be a very good lens. The 55mm Apo Sironar Digital is a sleeper lens, excellent.

BTW, Rodenstock has redone with website and it's much much more informative on all the focal ranges.

55 mm /4,5 Apo-Sironar-digital

Paul

 

[freaklikeme]

Thanks, Paul! So it's either a Grandagon or Sironar depending on the color of the band? From looking at the few samples I've found from both, I doubt I'll be disappointed with either. Thanks for the link, too.

My only concern now is that it's coming mounted on a unknown board, which may be one of Sinar's auto-shutter boards. If so, I'll need to pick up a Copal 0 shutter, so it may be less of a bargain regardless of version.

 

[Ken_R]

Thanks, Paul! So it's either a Grandagon or Sironar depending on the color of the band? From looking at the few samples I've found from both, I doubt I'll be disappointed with either. Thanks for the link, too.

My only concern now is that it's coming mounted on a unknown board, which may be one of Sinar's auto-shutter boards. If so, I'll need to pick up a Copal 0 shutter, so it may be less of a bargain regardless of version.

In general even "lesser" tech camera lenses are much better than SLR lenses. SLR lenses are designed with the huge limitation of long flange focal distances due to having to be mounted well away from the image plane due to the mirror box of SLR cameras.

Tech camera lenses sit much closer to the film/sensor plane. This is most times a good thing except with wide angles being too close creating light angles too extreme to be dealt by most sensors. The Leica M sensor is specially designed to deal with this issue. ASFAIK it's the only one.

I think the 55mm is a long enough focal length that you shouldn't have any issues with it and your A7. Wider than that im not sure.

 

[Paul2660]

Thanks, Paul! So it's either a Grandagon or Sironar depending on the color of the band? From looking at the few samples I've found from both, I doubt I'll be disappointed with either. Thanks for the link, too.

My only concern now is that it's coming mounted on a unknown board, which may be one of Sinar's auto-shutter boards. If so, I'll need to pick up a Copal 0 shutter, so it may be less of a bargain regardless of version.

One other note, if you need to replace the shutter you might have to send the lens back to Rodenstock. If a shutter is pulled, I have been taught the lens has to be re-colimated. This can only be done by the lens company. Others feel it's simple enough to do and attempt it.

The Copol 0 is no longer made, so you might try looking on ebay to see if there are any out there.

Paul

 

[stephengilbert]

SKGrimes still list Copal 0 shutters for sale: http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals Though this may be out of date.

They appear on eBay (I bought a new one a year or so ago), as do very inexpensive LF lenses with shutters. (This is the Graham Welland solution. )

 

[GrahamWelland]

SKGrimes still list Copal 0 shutters for sale: http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals Though this may be out of date.

They appear on eBay (I bought a new one a year or so ago), as do very inexpensive LF lenses with shutters. (This is the Graham Welland solution. )

Hee hee - yes I shocked my dealer by buying a soft Nikkor 150mm with a perfect Copal 0 shutter for $100 and then promptly disassembled the lens and gave it back to him minus the Shutter/retaining ring :thumbs:

A very cost effective approach for putting together a pinhole lens but where else will you get a nice shutter for $100?

 

[jlm]

my two new rodies are not color coordinated blue ring 32, yellow ring 90
boo hoo ;(

 

[GrahamWelland]

my two new rodies are not color coordinated blue ring 32, yellow ring 90
boo hoo ;(

I would complain and send them back!! No man can be expected to have the best Rodies without matching rings.

 

[scho]

I sold my 645D to move to a Cambo Actus with my a7 as a back (roughly the same pixel density per area). I kept a couple of my Hassy lenses to use with the camera, the CF 40 FLE and CF 100, and while both are exactly what I was expecting performance-wise, both are... well, exactly what I expected. Not very high resolution but perfectly acceptable for the relatively low pixel density, good micro-contrast, lousy edges, some color issues that make for better mono conversions than corrected color prints, and image circles that don't completely fill either the 64x63mm or 76x51mm area the Actus can cover. For some things, I'm perfectly happy with them both, even though the 40 is huge and the FLE is fussy. But for some things I've got in mind for the summer, I want better options.

So, like I'm guessing everyone does when they purchase one of these, I started looking at the Schneider and Rodenstock digital lenses. I fell in love with the images I found from the Rodenstock APO-Sironar 55/4.5. Great focal length, usable wide open, nearly perfect by f/11, handles higher pixel densities well if I ever decide to upgrade, and enough recommended-usage area (96x72) to cover anything I want to shoot now and make a transition to the DB if I ever decided to go that route. My target was to acquire one a month or so in advance of my Montana trip in August, so I put it on my used search list and started re-engineering my budget to cover a new one in July if I didn't find one used.

Finding a used copy looked like it was going to be a challenge. Then I came across a used Sinar Sinaron Digital 55/4.5 at Adorama. I had nothing more than a passing familiarity with the brand, so I looked them up. The lenses on the English version of their site looked shockingly familiar after having stared at the photos of Rodenstocks. Some further research provided the common internet knowledge that Sinar rebrands Rodenstock lenses, and the only comparable "digital" model from Rodenstock is the APO-Sironar.

Assuming the lens arrives in shooting condition, did I really just get the lens I wanted for $400? Is that a good price for a user copy? Please feel free to burst my bubble. This dopey grin feels unnatural on my face.

I've been using the Cambo Actus with my A7R as a digital back. I started like you with a few Hassy lenses and then switched to using LF lenses (analog). I have been very pleased with the performance of the Rodenstock Grandagons (both the APO 55 and 45 as well as the N version 75 and 90). The 55 is my favorite focal length for this setup. The 45 will not focus to infinity with the standard bellows so I purchased a the fixed wide bellows to use specifically with that lens. If I had know what a huge PITA it is to switch back and forth between bellows I would not have gone that route. Otherwise I'm quite happy with the Actus/A7r and the 55-90 Grandagons. Razor sharp edge to edge and no complaints about resolution for landscape work.

 

[freaklikeme]

In general even "lesser" tech camera lenses are much better than SLR lenses. SLR lenses are designed with the huge limitation of long flange focal distances due to having to be mounted well away from the image plane due to the mirror box of SLR cameras.

Tech camera lenses sit much closer to the film/sensor plane. This is most times a good thing except with wide angles being too close creating light angles too extreme to be dealt by most sensors. The Leica M sensor is specially designed to deal with this issue. ASFAIK it's the only one.

I think the 55mm is a long enough focal length that you shouldn't have any issues with it and your A7. Wider than that im not sure.

Thanks for the info, Ken. I also think I'll be okay with the 55. If it works out well, though, then the next lens will probably be the APO-Grandagon 35, but I plan to have the a7 moded with the Kolari thin cover glass before that. That won't do anything for the color cast, which will still have to be profiled out in LR or CornerFix, but it should stop any smearing. The people who have had it done report fantastic improvements with oblique rays from RF lenses, so the response should be the same with an UW tech lens.

 

[freaklikeme]

One other note, if you need to replace the shutter you might have to send the lens back to Rodenstock. If a shutter is pulled, I have been taught the lens has to be re-colimated. This can only be done by the lens company. Others feel it's simple enough to do and attempt it.

The Copol 0 is no longer made, so you might try looking on ebay to see if there are any out there.

Paul

I haven't discounted that possibility, but, from an engineering and manufacturing perspective, it seems unlikely to me that Sinar got anything "special" beyond what Rodenstock did for their own branded lenses, and even their auto shutters for the lenses still use the same thread size as Copal 0. My hope, assuming it comes to this, is that will only require remounting the elements. Fingers crossed.

 

[freaklikeme]

SKGrimes still list Copal 0 shutters for sale: http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals Though this may be out of date.

They appear on eBay (I bought a new one a year or so ago), as do very inexpensive LF lenses with shutters. (This is the Graham Welland solution. )

There are a couple of newish ones on eBay, but I like Graham's solution. Particularly since, for now, I don't even need a working shutter. I just need one that's not stuck closed and has a working aperture control and retaining ring.

 

[freaklikeme]

my two new rodies are not color coordinated blue ring 32, yellow ring 90
boo hoo ;(

If you pick up a pink and a green, you could have the Rodenstock Highlighter lens collection.

 

[freaklikeme]

I've been using the Cambo Actus with my A7R as a digital back. I started like you with a few Hassy lenses and then switched to using LF lenses (analog). I have been very pleased with the performance of the Rodenstock Grandagons (both the APO 55 and 45 as well as the N version 75 and 90). The 55 is my favorite focal length for this setup. The 45 will not focus to infinity with the standard bellows so I purchased a the fixed wide bellows to use specifically with that lens. If I had know what a huge PITA it is to switch back and forth between bellows I would not have gone that route. Otherwise I'm quite happy with the Actus/A7r and the 55-90 Grandagons. Razor sharp edge to edge and no complaints about resolution for landscape work.

Fantastic. Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm very excited about the 55 and am fairly certain it'll be the most-used focal length, but like I said earlier, I am interested in going with a 35 eventually. I knew I'd have to get the WA bellows for it but I didn't think it would be a pain to change them given the magnetic attachment. What's giving you fits about it?

 

[scho]

Fantastic. Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm very excited about the 55 and am fairly certain it'll be the most-used focal length, but like I said earlier, I am interested in going with a 35 eventually. I knew I'd have to get the WA bellows for it but I didn't think it would be a pain to change them given the magnetic attachment. What's giving you fits about it?

You have to change out the rear standard by removing a set screw and pulling out the original. The tricky part is a little ball bearing underneath sitting on a spring to hold it against the standard. If you are not careful it will pop out and it is very difficult to hold it in place when re-attaching the rear standard. The WA bellows is permanently attached to the replacement rear standard so you are not just changing the bellows.

 

[jlm]

my actus is the digital back model; the bellows connects to the front and rear standards with the magnets, no breakdown required i was able to get a 210mm alpa lens to focus at 10' using the WA bellows, but that was a it for both the bellows and the rail.

 

[freaklikeme]

You have to change out the rear standard by removing a set screw and pulling out the original. The tricky part is a little ball bearing underneath sitting on a spring to hold it against the standard. If you are not careful it will pop out and it is very difficult to hold it in place when re-attaching the rear standard. The WA bellows is permanently attached to the replacement rear standard so you are not just changing the bellows.

Thanks again, Carl. You saved me the heartache of just ordering the WA angle bellows and then finding out it won't work. Cambo doesn't seem to make that clear on their website but I found the part on B&H. $975 for the rear standard and bellows and a non-rotating mount. Will it only mount with the camera in landscape orientation?

Hmm. I may have to rethink the 35.

 

[scho]

Thanks again, Carl. You saved me the heartache of just ordering the WA angle bellows and then finding out it won't work. Cambo doesn't seem to make that clear on their website but I found the part on B&H. $975 for the rear standard and bellows and a non-rotating mount. Will it only mount with the camera in landscape orientation?

Hmm. I may have to rethink the 35.

Yes, the mount does not rotate.
Cambo Actus ACB-310

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Thanks again, Carl. You saved me the heartache of just ordering the WA angle bellows and then finding out it won't work. Cambo doesn't seem to make that clear on their website but I found the part on B&H. $975 for the rear standard and bellows and a non-rotating mount. Will it only mount with the camera in landscape orientation?

Hmm. I may have to rethink the 35.

We typically stock all of the Actus products, though I don't have one of these on my shelf at the moment, but I thought that you could re-mount the bayonet. I had to double check with one of our clients - naturally the Sony A7r camera does not rotate with the embedded bellows standard, but he confirmed you do have the option to change the orientation of the Sony bayonet, and then re-mount the Sony A7r. Or turn the whole camera sideways (He says this isn't as bad as he expected).


Steve Hendrix
CI