But you gotta be fair. We're nowhere near the same investment level. A big part of the stated medium format advantage is that when you buy into a modular system, the upgrade paths are easy and not as expensive. Now I have to respectfully disagree on Doug's label of "significant" relative to the discount on the XF via a DF/DF+ upgrade. It's still a $6000 body sans sensor after trade-in. That's a bundle.
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Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website
- Thread starter dougpeterson
- Start date
US$ 5,372.79
Probably better to keep it as a back-up than explain to the boss that the dealer reckons the camera we purchased 6 months ago has depreciated by 63%, no?
At the risk of repeating myself, I simply do not accept this proposition that hardly anyone ever buys a back without a camera; or a back without a camera; or is only ever interested in upgrading both the camera and the back at the same time.
I'll spare everyone the maths of the dealer profit when selling a camera, buying it back at a fraction of what they sold it for, reselling it on (either on its own, or as part of a bundle), and selling another camera at huge margin.
Phase One have fantastic products, and I love using them. But their sales and distribution model stinks. The sooner people wake up and realise they're being taken for a ride, the better.
Kind regards,
Gerald.
mesposito
Member
The XF looks excellent, so I'm very excited seeing the next generation, and they've obviously done some great work, especially for a small team.
This is no rant or complaint. Just going into my experience with the DF bodies in hopes that Phase One will possibly rethink their DF trade-in pricing.
it's a shame to have any negative comments at all about this new XF Body, especially after waiting so long. I'd love to own it, but I've already bought the DF in a kit, then upgraded to the DF+ as a separate trade/purchase. That means I'm into a single body for at least 9k now, and with my trade-in for the XF I'll need another 6k. That's $15 thousand to get one body that works right. (assuming this one does) Neither of the DF bodies worked well for me. I had power problems, custom settings problems, firmware update nastiness w/o a vgrip, Capture Pilot problems, and Live view problems.
Here's the thing: I know I own the Ferrari of camera systems (IQ260), and frankly I think that P1 is expecting that their users are making back many times the cost of ownership, or hundreds of thousands of $$ (whatever) per major release cycle. So the $8k shouldn't be a big deal. When you sell the Ferrari that's fair. Unfortunately as an artist I'm not getting that kind of ROI, so it's on me to make the sacrifice. The photogs and artists that are making good profits from this gear aren't commenting here. They already put their order in because it's obviously a much better product.
Still, for me neither the DF nor DF+ were helpful or intuitive tools, so it's hard to be positive about throwing an additional $8000 at this. In other words, it's tempting to just forget it. As I do Landscape Photography I've been using the Cambo with the IQ260 and just leaving the DF+ and Phase lenses at home. The XF makes me want to give it another shot, thus my dilemma.
Maybe my case is so out of the ordinary that it doesn't matter. If so, fine.
This is no rant or complaint. Just going into my experience with the DF bodies in hopes that Phase One will possibly rethink their DF trade-in pricing.
it's a shame to have any negative comments at all about this new XF Body, especially after waiting so long. I'd love to own it, but I've already bought the DF in a kit, then upgraded to the DF+ as a separate trade/purchase. That means I'm into a single body for at least 9k now, and with my trade-in for the XF I'll need another 6k. That's $15 thousand to get one body that works right. (assuming this one does) Neither of the DF bodies worked well for me. I had power problems, custom settings problems, firmware update nastiness w/o a vgrip, Capture Pilot problems, and Live view problems.
Here's the thing: I know I own the Ferrari of camera systems (IQ260), and frankly I think that P1 is expecting that their users are making back many times the cost of ownership, or hundreds of thousands of $$ (whatever) per major release cycle. So the $8k shouldn't be a big deal. When you sell the Ferrari that's fair. Unfortunately as an artist I'm not getting that kind of ROI, so it's on me to make the sacrifice. The photogs and artists that are making good profits from this gear aren't commenting here. They already put their order in because it's obviously a much better product.
Still, for me neither the DF nor DF+ were helpful or intuitive tools, so it's hard to be positive about throwing an additional $8000 at this. In other words, it's tempting to just forget it. As I do Landscape Photography I've been using the Cambo with the IQ260 and just leaving the DF+ and Phase lenses at home. The XF makes me want to give it another shot, thus my dilemma.
Maybe my case is so out of the ordinary that it doesn't matter. If so, fine.
For the simple reason that Canon's business model isn't built around having to provide significant margins to a totally unnecessary dealer network.
And dealers are not doing you a favour by offering you a trade-in value of $2K on a DF+. You can be sure of that.
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Just curious, what do you think the XF would bring you, that the Cambo doesn't, in landscape applications ? I am also a tech cam user (Arca Swiss Factum), and don't have a Phase one SLR at all.
The only thing I think the SLR would be good for, is long lenses. The long SLR lenses are as good (almost ?) as on the tech cam, but perhaps a bit more easy to handle, and framing is easier.
Sometimes it also feel a bit a pity that I cannot use my back on an autofocus body (I use my Canon system for those applications).
Still, for me, the XF is overkill. But perhaps there will be "good deals" on DF or DF+ bodies now...
jerome_m
Member
Is the 645DF focus really that bad? I have no problems with my old H4D and its single focus point.
As to the price of the XF, the H5x is similarly priced: $7,800.00 with a viewfinder. I suppose PhaseOne believes that is where their real competition is and they chose a similar price point.
Current promotions of the H5X with an 80mm lens is about $8K. Some deals can also be had for an H5X with 24mm or 35-90mm lens.
mediumcool
Active member
Is your model’s name Roland, Steve?
danlindberg
Well-known member
Looks like a serious upgrade featurewise and the ergonomics/design pleasing to my eyes! Really nice indeed.
I would definitely not mind having this as a tool in my photography, however, I'm in the extremely lucky position that I do not need it!! Ofcourse, the new body with the new 35 seems a great landscape combo, but it will not better my Rodie 32Hr at hyperfocal and 1 degree forward tilt shooting a typical landscape photograph. If I use the TC body, smaller and lighter than the Phase combo too. Obviously this is for my personal needs, with many many modern features that I never use in my work. Lucky me.....
I do wish Phase best of luck, I think they have a great cam there that could serve many for years to come. Just not for me....
I would definitely not mind having this as a tool in my photography, however, I'm in the extremely lucky position that I do not need it!! Ofcourse, the new body with the new 35 seems a great landscape combo, but it will not better my Rodie 32Hr at hyperfocal and 1 degree forward tilt shooting a typical landscape photograph. If I use the TC body, smaller and lighter than the Phase combo too. Obviously this is for my personal needs, with many many modern features that I never use in my work. Lucky me.....
I do wish Phase best of luck, I think they have a great cam there that could serve many for years to come. Just not for me....
alajuela
Active member
It is a shame Gerald that you feel that way and paint all dealers with the same brush, I deal with Capture Integration, and am a Happy Camper, they certainly have gone to bat for me and they have allot more pull and credibility with Phase than I do.
I agree that 2K is not going to be an incentive, but I assume this is Phase thing and not a dealer issue. Talk to your dealer, if they don't help, get a new one. In short I feel my dealer earns their money.
I cant think of many manufacturers that go direct to the public and anyways, would be a high maintenance bushiness model, and doubtful it would lower the cost.
Thanks
Phil
T.Dascalos
Not Available
It really seems to be targeting onto applications where one would normally use a DSLR promising (much) better performance doesn't it? From that POV, its marketing positon is the same as with the DF+ having the additional advantage of offering a WLF and improved operation/ergnomics....
As H5X will undeniably be the major competition for plarform, P1 seems to have balanced the camera as to serve their later or new customers of the backs, while H5X offers compatibility with the previous customers and third party makers and even film users having only IQ3 users out of the equation.
Hi Phil -
It's the business model that I don't agree with here, not the performance of any particular dealer. Clearly any dealer that has been in business for a number of years can only be successful if they are keeping their customers happy.
Phase One is sold by a completely different business model to "regular" brands such as Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Sony, et al. Products from those companies are sold in an internationally transparently open and competitive market that benefits the consumer. I can go online right now and buy products from any of those manufacturers from practically anywhere on the planet.
At the end of the day, it's just gear in boxes. Shift boxes with reliable contents. That's all that's needed. I'm not talking about direct from manufacturer, just dealerships selling boxes to the consumer filled with reliable products at a reasonable margin and with decent warranties, and without any FUD.
Phase One gear is way, way simpler to learn, understand & operate than any of the high-end offerings from the other brands I have mentioned. Why? Because functionality-wise, it is extremely basic. Compare functionality and manuals for the DF+ (or XF when it becomes available) to those for the 1Dx.
To reiterate. There is nothing special whatsoever about Phase One gear that requires a complex and costly support structure selling products to consumers through what are more akin to franchise partnerships than manufacturer>distributor>retailer.
I have worked (in retail) on both the franchisor and franchisee side of the business (same brand on each), and also built financial planning systems for both sides of the relationship. I know how these business models work and the additional margins that have to be added in to support such a structure.
Why should you need a dealer to "go to bat" for you with the manufacturer? If there's a problem with any equipment (not of your doing) and it's under warranty, then it gets fixed. That's the law.
I have 6x 1Dx's at work. One of them died after about 6 months of use. I didn't have to wait months for it to be fixed whilst using a loaner camera. It got replaced. Immediately. No one had to go into bat on my behalf with Canon.
Why should Phase One equipment be any different? I had an issue with my IQ180. The calibration seemed to have drifted out somewhat over the time since I owned it (I bought it second hand sight-unseen from half way across the world without ever having met the guy who sold it to me. Saving myself a ton of money in the process.). It was still under warranty. It went to my local dealer, who forwarded it on to Phase One. Who fixed it, and returned it to me via the dealer.
The dealer was nothing other than a post box. Apart from when buying stuff, it's the only thing I've ever needed from them.
The XF is a great looking camera. We will be getting one for work without any doubt whatsoever. My local Phase One dealer is fantastic. Great guys. I am happy to buy gear from them (not only Phase One).
But at the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned they are just shifting boxes. That's all I need them for. Why - if I want Phase One products - should I have to pay additional margins to support a business model that provides no benefit to me whatsoever?
Kind regards,
Gerald.
T.Dascalos
Not Available
Yeah... but that's not exclusive to Phase One, It is rather a traditional characteristic of all MF, after all Leica is even simpler and Contax 645 is still considered the simplest of all, yet offering all the functionality one needs...
To kinda piggyback on to what Gerald wrote, I don't like the pricing on Phase One backs. But they are best in class so, oh well. If you want to get onto the game you have to pony up. I don't like the pricing on SK LS lenses. Well, they do resolve the super high resolution backs allowing for awesome detail. So of you want to play you've got to pony up. Now here is where I have the problem. The camera bodies. The DF/DF+ brought nothing to the camera body party. Not only were they not best in class, they weren't even competitive with cheap DSLR camera bodies, let alone the best in class DSLR bodies. Yet, Phase never moved on their $6k price. And I'm totally with whoever wrote about rejecting the "who buys a body by itself" argument. Sorry, that's lame. Price the thing at $1500 and be done with it. If the XF is heavily discounted when bought with a back, just give your current customers who only need a functional body a real price instead of an inflated price. The IQ3 looks great, but I don't need a new back. What I need is a functional body that I can actually use in all my studio applications. Requiring another $8k or $6k (for a product that will still fall short of your average $1000 DSLR body in some key areas) to make that happen is taking advantage of your customer base IMO. Paying a premium for the absolute best is how the cookie crumbles. So for backs and lenses we just suck it up. But Phase One camera bodies are not that. And only citing Hasselblad selective comparing. When comparing image quality you use the entire market. So use the entire market when comparing camera bodies.
When I decided to buy into a Phase system, I thought I'd pay a high price to enter, but after that things would be reasonable via upgrades. But I'm discovering I was wrong. I'm more than disappointed by this revelation.
When I decided to buy into a Phase system, I thought I'd pay a high price to enter, but after that things would be reasonable via upgrades. But I'm discovering I was wrong. I'm more than disappointed by this revelation.
T.Dascalos
Not Available
I remember seeing an interview in Mexico with M.R. in video some years back... they promised to keep the system "open" there... didn't they? They even criticized Hasselblad (heavily) for closing theirs at those days.... Now it turns the other way around... XF is the "closed" system and H5X by far the most "open" platform....
mesposito
Member
You hit on some of the answers. When I went to the Cambo it wasn't to eliminate the Phase body/lenses setup, but to fill the wide-angle gap. I enjoy both ways of shooting so sometimes I enjoy the quicker workflow and autofocus, w/o the Leica Disto, LCC, along with being able to use the longer lenses. Weight is often the major consideration of which gear I'll use. If the hiking is long and it's hot, no way I'm bringing the Phase body and 3 lenses plus the Cambo to cover wide. Tried that - not fun.
Great to have choice, and the XF looks like a more modern body that may just work better.
I think for most folks here that have put up with the PoS called the DF for 5,6 or even more years, with the promise of a new body coming soon, an 8K price is tough to swallow. In most cases, the camera is a DF and not part of the upgrade offer. It does appear based on what Doug has written that DT is offering upgrades on the DF as well, but this appears to be a DT exclusive.
My main concern with the XF would be that it is another stop gap camera. FF CMOS will is certainly on the 12-24month horizon, and with that, I'd think a radically new camera design is possible. Both IQ2 and IQ3 backs have had marginally incremental capabilities and with the exception of LE and CMOS in the IQx50 series, no real changes in image quality. So again, stop-gap releases to keep product life cycles in check.
The 80MP Dalsa sensor showed up in the Aptus 12 five years ago. That is a long time for tech in this area, and that really has not been anything that comes near it so far, so I think we will see something that is a step-change soon and my concern would be buying into another bandaid.
My main concern with the XF would be that it is another stop gap camera. FF CMOS will is certainly on the 12-24month horizon, and with that, I'd think a radically new camera design is possible. Both IQ2 and IQ3 backs have had marginally incremental capabilities and with the exception of LE and CMOS in the IQx50 series, no real changes in image quality. So again, stop-gap releases to keep product life cycles in check.
The 80MP Dalsa sensor showed up in the Aptus 12 five years ago. That is a long time for tech in this area, and that really has not been anything that comes near it so far, so I think we will see something that is a step-change soon and my concern would be buying into another bandaid.
mediumcool
Active member
Faster. Can hand-hold!