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So, where is the Leica S2?

stephengilbert

Active member
I don't know whether the future of Leica depends on bankers and dentists buying their cameras, but I suspect that professional photographers are more likely to make their equipment purchase decisions based on whether they need the equipment enough to justify its cost. In the accounting world, this is called "cost accounting." Dentists (and lawyers, like me) are more likely to buy something because they're gear sluts. While Guy calls himself a gear slut, I suspect his decisions are more rational than those of someone like me, who could never rationally support what he's bought over the years.

I suspect that the purchase decisions of amateurs (at least as a group) might be less affected by the economy than those of pros who must balance the equipment cost against the likely return on that cost. Of course I may be completely wrong.

Steve
 

fotografz

Well-known member
If we all had been clairvoyant enough to yank our cash out of the stock market last Aug. .... we could all buy a complete S2 system and a Bentley Azure to haul it around in ... :mad:
 
O

Oxide Blu

Guest
...

2) Leica doesn't need to or intend to make a profit on the S2 in 2009

I take this as meaning two things. First, Leica has invested many millions of Euros into making the S2 a market leader and bringing all development in house. Second, Leica is interested in market share first and profitability second. The pricing strategy might be very aggressive.​
What it means is that Leica is banking on new product, specifically the M8.2, Lux 4, and lenses, to generate the revenue it needs to sustain its plan. If those products do not bring in the revenue Leica projected as far back as a year ago, Leica may find itself looking for recapitalization it had not intended.



3) Leica is in this for the long term (they are looking 5-10 years in the future)

Kaufmann is building two new factories, one in Portugal and the other in Wetzlar. He intends to grow the company and continue investing in R&D, regardless of the immediate economic climate. This is good for progress. The S-System will serve as the flagship product for at least the next five years. He even mentioned that they have already taken trademarks on S3, S4, and S5. Leica may well be one of the only companies that is hiring new talent and expanding while the rest of the world is focused on scaling back and laying off. In fact, according to their last financial report, they have about 100 more employees now than they did a year ago, adding about 10% to its workforce, mostly in R&D.​
Several things:

- my understanding (possibly incorrect?) is the two factories are refurbs/expansions of existing Leica factories. Who cares.

- Leica did indeed hire 100 or so new employees -- just after it reorganized into a new company allowing it to sidestep mandatory contributions to employee pension funding. Fiscally healthy companies don't do that. GM, Ford, Chrysler are all going through that same pension fund blues wiggle right now.

- there is no indication where those new hires are working. Leica does have new people in key, top management positions. Leica also has indicated it seriously underestimated the necessary R&D resources to meet product introduction deadlines, and that underestimation hurt projected sales, and not by an insignificant amount.

- Leica is running in the red -- seriously in the red. May not be an issue if they were well capitalized going into the S2 development. It will be an issue in the near future. Leica has planned to be at break even by FY09/10. Problem: Nikon has recently revised sales projections for cameras and lens, lowering sales by 68%-78%. Leica derives the lion's share of its revenue from camera/lens and sports optic sales. Compared to the Japanese camera moguls, Leica is a boutique camera outfilt that cannot sustain a loss of revenue like the big guys can.



But regardless of rumors of Leica's demise, crisis, etc., they are in fact moving full speed ahead with the S2 and the R10.
Yeah, but are they in panic mode doing it? Where are they cutting corners? I would be afraid of new product released behind schedule from any company on the edge. The DeLorean sports car comes to mind.

I don't know anything about Leica's demise but there is nothing available to indicate the company is fiscally healthy. On the contrary, every indication is that it is an extremely vulnerable company right now. That with no regard to how well capitalized Leica may actually be.

Leica's numbers indicate they can carry product that already has market momentum. Unless they have some serous cash somewhere, I don't see how they can provide for a full launch of a new product line. Given the condition of European banks and the vulnerability of consumer optics sales, me thinks a bailout could be iffy. I would feel a whole lot better about their increase in employee numbers if they/Leica was also able to fund their employee pensions.
 
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PeterA

Well-known member
Stephen - yes there will be a lot of pain to come - systemic meltdown is not costless. From a market perspective there already have been monumentally profitable trades - short banks long resources, short Euro / long US. Short long dated Bonds / long Treasuries - all of these bets have been counter intuative and against prevailing general market wisdom.

Final word on the markets - and thus is where yoru high school calculus comes in handy - the marginal change in direction is what markets focus on and in particular the rate of marginal change in direction. So whilst economic news will continue to be very gloomy - the absolute rate of decay will very soon begin to decelerate.

Those who survive teh next 12 months - win.

Keith - I dont think Leica has ever been anything other than a niche player. I dont see a lot of evidence of the 'typica' pro basing their workflow around Leica products and I dont expect this to change in the near or distant furture.

The wankers who buy this stuff - are the personality type who are prepared to pay overs for the marginal difference.

There arent a lot of people prepared to get 'less' in many ways ( automation megapixels servivce etc etc) and pay more.

Cheers
Pete
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I don't know whether the future of Leica depends on bankers and dentists buying their cameras, but I suspect that professional photographers are more likely to make their equipment purchase decisions based on whether they need the equipment enough to justify its cost. In the accounting world, this is called "cost accounting." Dentists (and lawyers, like me) are more likely to buy something because they're gear sluts. While Guy calls himself a gear slut, I suspect his decisions are more rational than those of someone like me, who could never rationally support what he's bought over the years.

I suspect that the purchase decisions of amateurs (at least as a group) might be less affected by the economy than those of pros who must balance the equipment cost against the likely return on that cost. Of course I may be completely wrong.

Steve
Steve your killing me . Rational, ah man that may hurt. Sick puppy maybe.:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Seriously things do need to make sense and i do go through a lot of decisions both Pro and Con versus a system. Issue is there is nothing perfect and you have to weigh everything to the plus side and eat the negative side.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Seriously things do need to make sense and i do go through a lot of decisions both Pro and Con versus a system. Issue is there is nothing perfect and you have to weigh everything to the plus side and eat the negative side.
Yes Guy, we know that you consider every single purchase with reference to your 5 year business plan, and that you never buy anything on impulse, especially not if it seems to be 'cool'.

It's up to us amateurs to make the dodgy decisions.
:)
 

carstenw

Active member
Hi Tim - I agree that it isn't directed at that marketplace . . . but then, nor is a great deal of MF kit. I don't think it affects my argument.

P.S. I assume that means you won't be wanting one? :)
Yeah Tim, please don't want one. Leica needs badly for this to come out without quality issues.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Keith - I dont think Leica has ever been anything other than a niche player. I dont see a lot of evidence of the 'typica' pro basing their workflow around Leica products and I dont expect this to change in the near or distant furture.
Pete, you may well be right, but I was rather hoping that Leica had at last seen the light and that their commitment to target the professional market could be taken seriously.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Pete, you may well be right, but I was rather hoping that Leica had at last seen the light and that their commitment to target the professional market could be taken seriously.
Keith - In a perfect world with lots of bucks to throw at the competition - Leica could slowly develop a niche with pros and then a real market share - over time. The hurdles are great though - read this thread - people are asking for Leica to sell this technology at CaNikon price points ....

As for so called 'pro support' - unless you live in a major city perhaps in London or NY etc - buy two bodies from B&H and make sure you fill in your warranty card! -:)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
On a brighter note:

If Leica markets this camera to the right pro markets, and REALLY adds a strong service component and warranty, I think they CAN win some Pro market share.

It's bad out there, but not for everyone. It may be diminished, but the beat still goes on. Judging from all the catalogs I get from all the high-end retailers SOMEONE is shooting all those products. GM may be staggering, but I'm still shooting 2010 accessories just like I did last year. Still doing work for my Cemetery client because people persist on dying. Wedding bookings are up from last year so far.

Look, we all know that 37 meg is enough for 99% of the work to be done even in a slightly cropped sized sensor, and if the optics ARE that good, but more importantly that goodness is captured by the sensor, then it's a viable choice for those still working steadily and ready for an upgrade from aging systems, or for moving up from 35mm DSLRs like a 1DsMKIII or D3X.

IMO, unlike in the more recent past, Leica HAS to capture some of the Pro Market. The S2 has to be taken as a serious Pro spec system if for nothing more than to position the gear with more well healed amateurs. This isn't a catagory of camera that one uses as a status or fashion statement while strolling the streets of Paris. It has NO heritage as a serious camera like the M earned earlier in its history. It has to earn it's own respect by delivering for those who set the pace in the commercial world.

Leica would do well by providing a few cameras to well known professional shooters ... like Annie Leibovitz, David LaChapelle, David Bailey, Marc Williams and Guy Mancuso :thumbs:
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Right on brother. Actually Marc they need to give this to a couple Pro's and yes give this to them so they can get the word out. My name is in the hat and if Mikey likes it you know how that goes. LOL
 

georgl

New member
Just to put some things right:

- Mr. Kaufmann (and his family) are extremely wealthy (several billion $) and he doesn't seem to sell Leica, he even became CEO himself

- He doesn't want to play with Leica on the stock-market, the money he invests doesn't come from risky speculations or credits.

- He invested about 100mio € in Leica, alone 30mio € on the S2 R$D

- The whole Leitz-Park in Wetzlar (about 600 employees) is entirely new.

- Leica has a bigger staff than all medium-format-companies combined (Hasselblad has only 60 people left in Sweden, Mamiya has 150 employees!)

- The Leica Camera AG wasn't reorganized into a new company to sidestep employee pensions (it wans't reorganized at all, but it will most likely become a GmbH - not a company on the stock-market). In fact, employee pensions make only a very small amount of pensions (they're mostly private and a pension tax) in Germany, it doesn't bother the companies in Germany like it does in the US. I've asked an employee, he ensured me that they're all employees of Leica Camera AG paid according to the tariff.

I hope they don't run into any unforseen problems (how long is Kodak going to produce Sensors?) because professionals should finally be able to enjoy Leica-glass and have a choice for a system entirely different to Canon/Nikon.

Leica will release further information on 20th February.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Correction...

We are approx 200 worldwide, probably more.
HI David
surely it's an addendum rather than a correction (unless there are more than 60 people in Sweden, which is what georg said. It would be interesting to know how many people Leica have worldwide.

Georg
Thank you for that - interesting statistics.
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
HI David
surely it's an addendum rather than a correction (unless there are more than 60 people in Sweden, which is what georg said. It would be interesting to know how many people Leica have worldwide.

Georg
Thank you for that - interesting statistics.
Jono,

Leica has just shy of 1100 employees. I don't think this includes the individual agencies in each country though, just the ones that work directly for Leica Camera AG in Germany and Portugal.

David
 

georgl

New member
"We are approx 200 worldwide, probably more."

It was very difficult finding exact numbers, but that's what I've heard:

400 people in Göteborg before Hasselblad was sold to Shriro (HongKong).

Most employees were fired, instead of own production they left their new building (they just build a few years before) and now assemble components by suppliers or Fuji

The last number I had was 60 employees left in Göteborg (that's the only HQ, R&D-department and production site they have - I'm sure there are some more in their distribution network).
http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HS/HSGot.aspx

Correct me if I'm wrong.

In comparison:

The "Leitz-Park" will have about 600 employees (30 of them are not relevant for Leica Camera, they make optical plastic components) and consists not only of Leica Camera but also Weller, which was once part of Leitz (they make mechanical parts) and were bought back by Mr. Kaufmann. Many small companies (who are still suppliers to Leica Camera) in the region were once part of the Leitz-company.
Outsourcing, the big economy myth, has finally stopped and I hope that starting with the S2, Leica Camera will gain more competence in R&D and manufacturing - just like they once had!

Right now, Leica Camera seems to be in a very comfortable position by being owned by Mr. Kaufmann and not by greedy shareholders, something that will cause lots of trouble for many (even much bigger), companies, especially in these times (cutting relevant investments...).
 

gero

New member
Outsourcing, the big economy myth, has finally stopped and I hope that starting with the S2, Leica Camera will gain more competence in R&D and manufacturing - just like they once had!

Right now, Leica Camera seems to be in a very comfortable position by being owned by Mr. Kaufmann and not by greedy shareholders, something that will cause lots of trouble for many (even much bigger), companies, especially in these times (cutting relevant investments...).
I really think that Leica is in a very good position for the future.

Small, and being able to take long term desitions with a lot of knoledgeble people in their staf.
 
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