So, where is the Leica S2?

[Yevgeny NP]

It was a very interesting thread with loads of useful information.

I am very interested in the S2 first because of the lenses, and secondly I would like to have one camera to use high sync leaf lenses and the fast in-camera focal shutter on one platform. Now I have to use my Sinar-M as a focal shutter camera and the Hy6 for high sync. I'd prefer to have a DSLR type robust body to shoot outside and the S2 looks like a camera to consider. I am pretty sure that the resolution will be enough, I am satisfied with my 22mpx. eMotion 54LV.

The Zeiss versus Fuji discussion was interesting as well. I do not own a Hasselblad-H and cannot comment on the lenses (I know that they are very good with the 39mpx. multi-shot back). I do own the Sinaron Zeiss AF lenses for my Sinar-M and they are outstanding even with the Sinarback 54H in 16-shot mode (88mpx.) and the 40mm AF IMHO is above the excellent copy of the 40mm f/4 CFE IF I have. The Sinaron AF line has showed that Zeiss is capable to build the AF lenses to very good specs , if pricey.

Yevgeny

 

[KeithL]

Do they come up with new infos on the PMA? They wanted to tell more about their pro-service in January... Well, marketing and communication never was their strength...

They've got eight days and counting...

 

[jklotz]

I also do think that Leica is taking the whole service-for-pros problem very seriously, and the agreement with Phase is presumably all about this.

They may be, but in my opinion, the only way for Leica to be able to offer the support I need is to have a dealer network devoted to the product locally. I mean really, if I have a job, and my Phase one back goes down, there is a dealer who can rent me a replacement, deliver it to my job site with charged batteries, fed ex out the bad one for repair and communicate directly with the factory as to the status.

I love my little M8, but let's face it, it's a toy I use for fine art and snapshots. When it comes to making a living, I use tools designed for professionals, from companies that treat them as such.

The M8 was my 1st experience with Leica. As much fun as I've had with it, I'd be hard pressed to go down that road again. Like somebody else said earlier, you guys go ahead and beta test for me. I think I'll just make some popcorn and watch the drama unfold

 

[carstenw]

I believe that the Phase network will also support the S2, presumably in a similar way. At least, that is the plan. Let's see how it unfolds.

 

[Oxide Blu]

They may be, but in my opinion, the only way for Leica to be able to offer the support I need is to have a dealer network devoted to the product locally. I mean really, if I have a job, and my Phase one back goes down, there is a dealer who can rent me a replacement, deliver it to my job site with charged batteries, fed ex out the bad one for repair and communicate directly with the factory as to the status.

This can get interesting. Ever notice the FTC's required boiler plate statement included with all product warranties that says something to the effect "you may have other rights that vary from state to state ..." ?

Well, Calif is one such state. Its consumer protection laws include a mandate that manfrs of any item that operates on electricity and has a wholesale value in excess of $100 (I think that would include a S2 ) is required to maintain warranty repair in close proximity to where the product is sold. The alternative is that every retailer of that manfr's product becomes a warranty drop off station. In Calif support is as close as a retailer. We never need to pay to return something for repairs.

Calif also requires the manfr to maintain parts to fix anything for 7-years after the product is sold, regardless of the length of the manfr's warranty. So an S2 will be repairable and usable for at least 7 years. Oh, and if the manfr does not repair something with 30-days, you can compel them to buy the product back from you, less fair depreciation for use when the product was working.

 

[Howard Cubell]

This can get interesting. Ever notice the FTC's required boiler plate statement included with all product warranties that says something to the effect "you may have other rights that vary from state to state ..." ?

Well, Calif is one such state. Its consumer protection laws include a mandate that manfrs of any item that operates on electricity and has a wholesale value in excess of $100 (I think that would include a S2 ) is required to maintain warranty repair in close proximity to where the product is sold. The alternative is that every retailer of that manfr's product becomes a warranty drop off station. In Calif support is as close as a retailer. We never need to pay to return something for repairs.

Calif also requires the manfr to maintain parts to fix anything for 7-years after the product is sold, regardless of the length of the manfr's warranty. So an S2 will be repairable and usable for at least 7 years. Oh, and if the manfr does not repair something with 30-days, you can compel them to buy the product back from you, less fair depreciation for use when the product was working.

Nothing excites me as much as the prospect of a good lawsuit as the backup plan for securing first class service on a new, as yet untested camera system.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

"Nothing excites me as much as the prospect of a good lawsuit as the backup plan for securing first class service on a new, as yet untested camera system."

hahaha, so true. If you think the S2 will be expensive, wait until you have to pay for a German speaking Johnnie Cochran to get it serviced!

This is not meant as a dig at the S2 -- I hope it is great and the service is better than it was for the DMR, and M cameras (well, if not better, then quicker at least). I am excited to hear about Leica's intentions about this and the pricing. It will likely make a lot of these pontifications redundant.

 

[stephengilbert]

Oxide,

You say "Calif is one such state," providing seven years warranty on electric products, and that a digital camera would be covered.

Being a California lawyer, I was curious whether that was right, and couldn't find any such provision. Do you have a code section (or toher source) for a law setting forth those requirements?

Thanks, Steve

 

[bensonga]

Ahhhh the S2.....if only I hadn't taken the bait on that come-on from Hasselblad for the 503CWD-II kit with the 40mm lens, I might be dreaming of an S2 body (I probably couldn't afford a lens too). In this economy....I wonder how many amateurs like me are willing (or able) to pony up the big bucks for an S2. Unlike the pros, we are the only ones who could tolerate mediocre service without a direct hit to our income stream.

GB
Alaska

 

[Oxide Blu]

Being a California lawyer, I was curious whether that was right, and couldn't find any such provision. Do you have a code section (or toher source) for a law setting forth those requirements?

Well, what did you find, lawyer Steve?

 

[georgl]

@Yevgeny NP
You have the Sinar M? I'm curious, is the 40mm Zeiss for the Sinar the same optical formula as the 40IF for the Hasselblad or is it the older 40? Has Sinar ordered a new AF-design and that's why Hasselblad came up with the 40IF years after the last new design for this system?

It's a theoretical discussion, because we can barely compare real lenses (because of the differences in age, image circle...) but speculate on the possibilities of lens manufacturers. Zeiss designed the 38mm Biogon 55 years ago, a spectacular lens, but nearly fourty years later, other manufacterers came up with comparable perfomances, while Zeiss only used more advanced WA-designs for cinematography because nobody in the photography industry ordered a better WA. But that's exactly the point: Most Zeiss lenses are designed for other customers, as long as they're (Hasselblad, Rollei, Sinar, ARRI...) happy, they won't create new ones and as long the Hasselblad-customers are happy with specific drawbacks or cost cutting, they will continue this strategy and new Zeiss-designs will only be available to cinematographers or military...

We will never find out, unless Franke&Heidecke orders a new set of high-end-lenses for >60MP-backs...

That's something I wish for: more alternatives, different approaches, different designs, production... in the professional market. The Leica S2 and the Hy6 seem more interesting to me as just another 645-system, although they're not the ideal choice for everyone, of course.

 

[Yevgeny NP]

@Yevgeny NP
You have the Sinar M? I'm curious, is the 40mm Zeiss for the Sinar the same optical formula as the 40IF for the Hasselblad or is it the older 40? Has Sinar ordered a new AF-design and that's why Hasselblad came up with the 40IF years after the last new design for this system?


That's something I wish for: more alternatives, different approaches, different designs, production... in the professional market. The Leica S2 and the Hy6 seem more interesting to me as just another 645-system, although they're not the ideal choice for everyone, of course.

Yes, I do have a Sinar-M with the set of AF lenses. AFAIK the optical design of the 40mm.AF and 40IF is the same. I have just bought a 40 mm. IF lens (to use on the Flexbody) and tested the lens. I do not know why, but my copy of the IF is worse that the AF version, if only marginally: less even in the corners.
The Af is fast and accurate.
The Sinar-M is the only current body with the focal plane shutter to use the fast 2000 series lenses and I do not plan to part with the M.
I still do not understand why Sinar decided to go in the Hy6 direction, IMO it would be easier to manufacture the new AF Mudule with the Rollei mount and use both the in camera and leaf shutters as Leica and PO plan to do.
Yevgeny

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

...Zeiss designed the 38mm Biogon 55 years ago, a spectacular lens, but nearly fourty years later, other manufacterers came up with comparable perfomances, while Zeiss only used more advanced WA-designs for cinematography because nobody in the photography industry ordered a better WA. But that's exactly the point: Most Zeiss lenses are designed for other customers, as long as they're (Hasselblad, Rollei, Sinar, ARRI...) happy, they won't create new ones and as long the Hasselblad-customers are happy with specific drawbacks or cost cutting, they will continue this strategy and new Zeiss-designs will only be available to cinematographers or military...

The Zeiss Biogon was a great lens THEN but is very unsuitable for digital capture now. The medium of digital is different and therefore requires a new design consideration.

David

 

[KeithL]

The Zeiss Biogon was a great lens THEN but is very unsuitable for digital capture now. The medium of digital is different and therefore requires a new design consideration.David

David

Are you saying that Hasselblad wouldn't recommend the use of the SWC series in combination with Hasselblad digital backs?

Keith

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

David

Are you saying that Hasselblad wouldn't recommend the use of the SWC series in combination with Hasselblad digital backs?

Keith

There are certainly plenty of people using it with great results. However, for 'optimum' performance it can be compromised.

Smaller apertures should be fine - fully open might be a different story.

Same applies for any digital back, not just Hasselblad. See attached PDF!

Hope that explains better than my too brief comment!

David

 

[georgl]

The old 38mm Biogon isn't as perfectly corrected as the new Digitars/Rodenstock HR-lenses - we're still talking about a 50 years older design!

To destroy the myth of "digital-optimized"-lens design:

Biogons are true WA-designs (distance sensor/film->aperture = focal length), while Distagons are retrofocus-designs (the opposite of a tele-design). Todays sensors often have problems with true WA, but the lenses are better (easier to design, smaller, more possibilities...) so it would be better to focus on improving sensors to use Biogon-like designs in the future again (that's what Leica is waiting for their full-frame M9). But sensors without microlenses shouldn't have these problems, the best digital WA-images I've ever seen were made with ALPA + Rodenstock HR-lenses (they're also true WA).

The optical effects caused by the cover-glass are another problem (the Rodenstock/Scheider-lenses also were designed with the glass in mind), that's why the M8 has a very thin cover-glass with low IR-absorption.

The Leica S 2,5/35 seems to be superior even to these true WA (although comparing different MTFs with smaller image circle), but I was shocked when I saw the lens on the Photokina: it's huge (also the front lens diameter) and propably will be bloody expensive!

So we can hope that sensor/microlenses/cover-glass-technology will improve and these fantastic designs will be more usable again (lenses like the new super-fast M-designs are not even possible with stronger retrofocus-designs).

@Yevgeny NP
Sinar is now owned by Jenoptik and they financed the Hy6 for Franke&Heidecke...

 

[KeithL]

David

Thanks for your reply, appreciated.

Rather than hijack this thread I'll start another asking for user's experiences of the SWC series in combination with DBs.

Keith

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

To destroy the myth of "digital-optimized"-lens design:

No wish to argue with you.

Please see my above PDF. I tend to trust the mathematics of our Lens Design team as opposed to anyone else.

Best,


David

 

[fotografz]

HI There
Well, Frankly I'm not so convinced by all this talk of cost-sensitivity. I think there are various points, but here are a couple

Supposing it costs $9000 to make and market the S2, if they sell it for $10000, they'll have to sell 5 times as many as if they sell it for $15000. I know it sounds screamingly obvious, but it's worth remembering when speaking of pricing.

If you're a truck driver, you need a truck, I don't know how much a truck costs, but I'd have said that an S2 system pales into insignificance in comparison.

Seems to me that for many working professionals (who have both MF and dSLR kits), assuming that it does live up to it's promise, it's going to allow them to ditch their MF gear and their dSLR gear for 1 combined system - expensive changeover, but cheaper afterwards.

Added to which the whole kit is beautiful and cool. Which will probably put off many of the PJ photographers, but for fashion and advertising and fine art work it'll be fairly irresistible.

What this says to me is that if the S2 delivers it's promise (i.e. MF image quality with dSLR convenience and performance). Then it will sell easily at Hassleblad kind of prices. If it doesn't, then it's dead at ANY price.

This kind of thinking discounts the over-all expense of running a professional photographic service. While the camera systems are of major importance, there are a hell of lot of other costs involved ... just look at the price of good strobe gear now, and insurance costs are sky-rocketing. So the "cool factor" is just not in the business plan, no matter how cool it is.

Dslr convenience? Maybe. Performance? I seriously doubt it.

 

[LJL]

This kind of thinking discounts the over-all expense of running a professional photographic service. While the camera systems are of major importance, there are a hell of lot of other costs involved ... just look at the price of good strobe gear now, and insurance costs are sky-rocketing. So the "cool factor" is just not in the business plan, no matter how cool it is.

Dslr convenience? Maybe. Performance? I seriously doubt it.

This was exactly the concept that I have been talking about. The typical working pro that would be using MF gear and be attracted to the S2 has to support a lot of other pretty costly gear also. One may argue that they already have their studio outfitted, or have what they need, but the recent advances in lighting gear, as your example, is worth considering, and it is NOT cheap, so more money spent on the S2 means less available for the other stuff needed. This also applies to the folks considering the move from DSLR to S2 as their lever for commercial shooting. If you do not already have that business, and gear, the costs will be crippling. If you do have the other gear, the cost of the S2 is still something that has to work into the overall financial plan. Just buying the body and a lens or two is not going to work for most pros, but may be all that the more casual, well-heeled user may want. Leica has to get a "pro" headset on and think about all of the business issues and how their product will fit in for those they are trying to get to buy it. The cool factor is great, and I am sure the gear will deliver, but only if it is affordable for the target group. Hasselblad and even Phase have started to recognize this....Leaf and Sinar seem a bit slower on the response. Will be interesting to hear how this is going to be priced. Right now, my wishes for the S2 and lenses is on the same list as Profoto D1s, a new MacBook Pro and monitor, and other things that need to get swapped out, PLUS the other operational and marketing expenses. Price sensitivity is real to me.

LJ