So, where is the Leica S2?

[Guy Mancuso]

My biggest issue is a lot of money in ONE system when I actually need two. Let's face it I am already pretty heavy in the Mamiya /Phase stuff and some lenses are very cost effective like the 35mm, 55 and my 300 mm. Right now looking at a Sony for more of the event type work that I have been doing with MF which is a bit tougher to work with and obviously I don't need the MF horsepower here. So even though the S2 may solve the 1 system setup it is a lot to put on one very expensive system and this also limits some backup 35mm system being had in your kit. I am more inclined to sit pat in a lot of ways and just add a small Sony or Nikon basic event package than trying to stretch out for a whole S2 kit. Even though the S2 may cover both systems it still puts a lot of weight on one kit. Obviously doing that today but my cost out for a 35mm kit to add to what I already have makes more ROI sense and given business is down. You start scratching your head, sure I am a major gear slut but common sense is something I pride myself on too. This is a very careful weight balance that at least I need to employ and I know many others sit in the same kind of chair as i do. We walk into a camera dealer treading very lightly these days.

 

[ptomsu]

Having used several MF solutions (Hasselblad, Contax, Rollei) in the analog area I found recently while scanning my work with an Hasselblad Fextight X5 that the quality from the Hasselblad system is (was) by far exceeding the other systems. This is true for optical performance as well as camera performance and system handling.

BTW I can only recommend the Flextight X5, as I found this to be the best film scanner available (and I did quite extensive tests before I bought).

Back to MF Digital and the S2 now: I meanwhile know the H System very well, and have done a lot of tests with the H3DII and mostly the 39MP back, but also with the 50MP back. I only can say that the quality is stunning, the optical, mechanical and electronic quality of the whole package (system). And the handling at least for me is superb and far beyond what one can expect from a classical design as the S2 is going to have - the one of a supersize DSLR

Plus you get a well thought and designed and proven Pro Service from Hasselblad and you get one of the best image processing tools - Phocus

http://beta.hasselblad.com/products/phocus.aspx

available today. And it is very crucial to state for an Apple Aperture lover like me, that I recognized the benefits of a great tool like Phocus together wit PS being miles away from any solution like Aperture or Lightroom, just because of achievable quality and reproduction of results!

So what can we expect from Leica? The S2 is their first step into the digital world developed solely by their own, as is all the lenses for a digital system and the processing SW - even if this is done in cooperation with Phase One. As is their Pro support. In all these areas they are doing their first steps. And the quality of the final product will only be good or stellar, if the quality of ALL these pieces is good or stellar.

So this gives the answer by itself: I simply cannot believe that Leica can achieve this goal - not in all areas. What we most probably will see is a great idea, and a resulting system which probably will mature over the next 4-5 years and then it could become a competitor to guys like Hasselblad or others.

Just my 5c :grin:

 

[ptomsu]

My biggest issue is a lot of money in ONE system when I actually need two. Let's face it I am already pretty heavy in the Mamiya /Phase stuff and some lenses are very cost effective like the 35mm, 55 and my 300 mm. Right now looking at a Sony for more of the event type work that I have been doing with MF which is a bit tougher to work with and obviously I don't need the MF horsepower here. So even though the S2 may solve the 1 system setup it is a lot to put on one very expensive system and this also limits some backup 35mm system being had in your kit. I am more inclined to sit pat in a lot of ways and just add a small Sony or Nikon basic event package than trying to stretch out for a whole S2 kit. Even though the S2 may cover both systems it still puts a lot of weight on one kit. Obviously doing that today but my cost out for a 35mm kit to add to what I already have makes more ROI sense and given business is down. You start scratching your head, sure I am a major gear slut but common sense is something I pride myself on too. This is a very careful weight balance that at least I need to employ and I know many others sit in the same kind of chair as i do. We walk into a camera dealer treading very lightly these days.

While I am fully with you Guy on the 1 system philosophy - I also do not believe this works - I cannot understand why you are looking into Sony or Nikon if there is such a beautiful Canon system and especially the new 5D2 out there. I have this camera and I love it. Even more than my Nikon D3

And since I do not belive in the 1 system philosophy I also do not believe in the S System and thus most probably my MF system will be an H System based on a H3DII.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Peter , I know but Canon left me with a very bad taste in my mouth in the lenses and there damn AA filter. Nikon I am not crazy about the color and the Sony looks a lot like the DMR but I have not fully decided yet and reason I have not pulled the trigger on anything. All the 35mm setups are still a little short in my mind on glass. Okay i did get a G10 for fun so i have not left them by the side of the road completely. LOL

When at PMA i will get them all in my hands again and see what is comfortable. I'm also waiting on some MF announcements and see what those bring.

 

[Oxide Blu]

...Right now looking at a Sony for more of the event type work that I have been doing with MF ... I am more inclined to sit pat in a lot of ways and just add a small Sony or Nikon basic event package ...

Just as a reminder, there is nothing going on with event photography that cannot be covered with a cell phone camera. You do have a cell phone, don't you?!? :thumbup:

 

[georgl]

"Please see my above PDF. I tend to trust the mathematics of our Lens Design team as opposed to anyone else."

What I've tried to say: "Digital" lenses are compromised (WA) to compensate today's sensor shortcomings, a very popular example is the 4/3-system which caused gigantic lenses (in comparison to the sensor size). Of course sensor-technology will advance very quickly (Iit already did - the M8 was impossible 4 years ago, DALSAs new microlenses are further improved) while the laws of optical design will stand for decades, retrofocus lenses will be much more complex/heavier/distortion-prone... than true WA.

Mass-producers now claim coming up with "digital-optimized" lenses which are improved on resolution, CA... Of course, sharp lenses are sharp, whether they're used on digital or not...

That's the kind of marketing is was talking about - good lenses are good lenses, period.

Only considering the optical effects of the cover glass is some kind of true "digital-optimizing" of the lenses.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Just as a reminder, there is nothing going on with event photography that cannot be covered with a cell phone camera. You do have a cell phone, don't you?!? :thumbup:

LOL How embarrassing though. Oh sure can you hand me that 10k check please.
Actually that is true and false. Be surprised sometimes where this stuff winds up but I agree you do not need 24mpx 98 percent of the time. But it's use for this type of camera can and will go beyond the events only category. Believe me I have had clients take a PR shot up to complete wall size with a M8 and it was not pretty.

 

[ptomsu]

The old question of how many MP you need - right?

You can answer this very easily, consider 300dpi as the standard print resolution for high quality and then you can do the math yourself. With the H3DII and 50MP back you get 6132 x 8176 Pixel. This means with 300 dpi you can get up to 20.44 inch x 27.25 inch or 51.91 cm x 69.22 cm output size in print without any SW manipulation and upsampling.

If you are happy with 150dpi, you can double this. Now one can argue, you easily can do upsampling in whatever SW (RIP, PS, etc) but any of these upsampling processes are adding artificial calculations to the image, so you finally do not get what you really took as photo. So at least for Fine Art Photography (and I assume the word ART implies real art) this is not the way to go - maybe for normal PR or advertising work this might be ok, although if I am the client and pay the photo, then I would ask for the highest quality if I belief I need it.

Thus higher resolutions are always welcome and we currently see the trend towards the 6 micron sensors and 50 - 60MP backs. And this will not be the end of course as we will see further enhanced sensors with maybe 80 or even 90MP for MF. And then take into account that we are still working with rectangle not square, so if good old 6x6 is supported by sensors, we will then be in the range of 100 to 120MP.

Too much, too high data volumes? Just think back 5-10 years and the computers we used to have then and not being able to think about today's file sizes and storage needs. But today Terabyte storage is nothing and thus in 5-10 years from now we will be in the range of Exabyte and then these data volumes produced by 100MP backs or cameras will be just a joke.

So what is Leica doing? They today limit themselves to a format which can capture 37MP on 30 mm x 45 mm, using current 6 micro sensor technologies. Although the current evolution already points clearly ahead of this! I call this not very wise at least and it ensures that their S system - however great it will finally be - will be a "only mee too" systm because of these limitations. Which might be the perfect system for many, despite of the high price tag of course

I for myself better jump on the real MF train with a 39MF promotion from Hasselblad, or maybe even a 50MP back if I can bring the money together, be happy for the next 3-4 years with that solution and then upgrade to the next technology level in MF with maybe 120MP :bugeyes: And this is what I have learned from the past digital photography years - you need to be ready for a major upgrade every 3 - 5 years if you want to use the state of the art product line.

We have an exciting future in front of us

 

[Paratom]

The do not limit the system to a certain resolution, only to a sensor size.
I dont think a buying a new digital back to be much less money than buy a new ("updated") S2-body.

The old question of how many MP you need - right?

You can answer this very easily, consider 300dpi as the standard print resolution for high quality and then you can do the math yourself. With the H3DII and 50MP back you get 6132 x 8176 Pixel. This means with 300 dpi you can get up to 20.44 inch x 27.25 inch or 51.91 cm x 69.22 cm output size in print without any SW manipulation and upsampling.

If you are happy with 150dpi, you can double this. Now one can argue, you easily can do upsampling in whatever SW (RIP, PS, etc) but any of these upsampling processes are adding artificial calculations to the image, so you finally do not get what you really took as photo. So at least for Fine Art Photography (and I assume the word ART implies real art) this is not the way to go - maybe for normal PR or advertising work this might be ok, although if I am the client and pay the photo, then I would ask for the highest quality if I belief I need it.

Thus higher resolutions are always welcome and we currently see the trend towards the 6 micron sensors and 50 - 60MP backs. And this will not be the end of course as we will see further enhanced sensors with maybe 80 or even 90MP for MF. And then take into account that we are still working with rectangle not square, so if good old 6x6 is supported by sensors, we will then be in the range of 100 to 120MP.

Too much, too high data volumes? Just think back 5-10 years and the computers we used to have then and not being able to think about today's file sizes and storage needs. But today Terabyte storage is nothing and thus in 5-10 years from now we will be in the range of Exabyte and then these data volumes produced by 100MP backs or cameras will be just a joke.

So what is Leica doing? They today limit themselves to a format which can capture 37MP on 30 mm x 45 mm, using current 6 micro sensor technologies. Although the current evolution already points clearly ahead of this! I call this not very wise at least and it ensures that their S system - however great it will finally be - will be a "only mee too" systm because of these limitations. Which might be the perfect system for many, despite of the high price tag of course

I for myself better jump on the real MF train with a 39MF promotion from Hasselblad, or maybe even a 50MP back if I can bring the money together, be happy for the next 3-4 years with that solution and then upgrade to the next technology level in MF with maybe 120MP :bugeyes: And this is what I have learned from the past digital photography years - you need to be ready for a major upgrade every 3 - 5 years if you want to use the state of the art product line.

We have an exciting future in front of us

 

[fotografz]

Just as a reminder, there is nothing going on with event photography that cannot be covered with a cell phone camera. You do have a cell phone, don't you?!? :thumbup:

Not even close to true.

 

[LJL]

The do not limit the system to a certain resolution, only to a sensor size.
I dont think a buying a new digital back to be much less money than buy a new ("updated") S2-body.

But one of the greater limitations of the S2 is the physical size of the area for that sensor. If the 6 micron "threshold" changes to an even smaller size without compromising things too much, then the fixed size area of the S2 might be able to accommodate a higher MP sensor. The same is actually true for the other MF backs, but they just have more potential area to play with up to 6x6. So while 50-60MP may be needed by a few, and be very attractive by a lot more folks, it still comes down to "is 37MP enough" for most applications? That is the gamble Leica is taking on right now. Personally, I think it will satisfy a lot of folks, both shooters and clients. If the tech develops more, and higher density sensors come along, as you say, Leica may only have to release a new camera....hopefully at the competitive price of the new backs that may keep coming.

LJ

 

[georgl]

Kodak predicted some while ago that a 5mikrometer-pixel-pitch is the maximum with the technologies we can expect within the next years (= same actual pixel size as today to deliver same noise/DR by increasing fill-rate).
Schneider/Rodenstock guarentee an acceptable MTF up to this pixel-pitch (5mikrometers = 100lp/mm!) with their best designs (HR/Digitars). Delivering 100lp/mm with good contrast over a large image circle is not an easy task!

So we can expect to hit the resolution-maximum for the next decade @54MP with the S-System and 91MP with 645-full-frame.

When I want really GREAT IQ, I'll take 8x10inch Velvia with over 500MP real resolution... ;-)

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I think the issue is going to be more about the performance in other areas than resolution. 37mp with Leica lenses is going to suit almost any client until they start inventing new ways of using the file that requires something bigger. 37mp is just so much resolution that it is enough for almost any practical purpose, especially combined with excellent lenses. I think the real test will be -- is the camera reliable, well-priced and easy to work with? Is the service quick and effective? Does ISO 800+ look great? I think those questions will be more important than sheer resolution for most customers, as 37mp is already gigantic.

 

[BradleyGibson]

To my knowledge, Leica has not clarified this, but I'm not convinced the S line is limited to 30x45mm sensors. If one makes the assumption that the S lenses cover a 645 frame (56x42mm), then there is room to expand the size of the sensor along with the resolution in future models.

There are a few reasons to believe the S2's sensor size isn't the final word for the line, including:
* cost limitatations (yield drops with larger sensor size)
* Phase partnership (would Phase really want a 645FF 37MP imager out there competing with the P45+ on resolution and the P65+ on size?)

If 45x30 is the size of the lineup, why would the standard lens be 70mm?? Diagonal of 45x30 is only 54mm, but the diagonal of 56x42mm is... whaddaya know? 70mm.

Also, Leica's MTF charts are oddly specified on the X-axis. Like they're ready to be scaled to a different size.

And what good would the rumored Leica lenses be on the Phase platform if they don't cover the 49x37mm sensor?

Nothing definite, but just some thoughts to throw into the mix.

-Brad

The do not limit the system to a certain resolution, only to a sensor size.
I dont think a buying a new digital back to be much less money than buy a new ("updated") S2-body.

 

[PeterA]

People - dont get sucked into marketing BS. The economics for the S2 dont add up.

You don't buy a MF lens for wide open capability - you buy it for quality @ F8-16, if it is fast @ wide open thats a bonus at the margin.

If you want wide you go Rodenstock or Schneider - if you want tele you go 35mm format. If you want high ISO you buy 35mm. If you want SLR handling you buy 35mm. If you want architecture or product or reproduction you buy Sinar/Arca/lnhoff etc etc

The S2 is a solution looking for a problem, an answer to a question that no one is asking except Leica nutz.

I dont think ANY MF maker is quacking in their boots - if anything I would imagine that current economic condiitons as well as curent MF pricing and current declared new backs - is making Leica not so comfortable.

The Dentists and Bankers and Doctors and fondlers will be their customer base - along with a tiny minority of self styled pros - who like bragging rights.

 

[BradleyGibson]

Different strokes, I guess.

 

[PeterA]

For sure Bradley . I am no longer interested - at all. So ends my 'contribution' to the debate -

 

[Forrest Black]

...

The S2 is a solution looking for a problem, an answer to a question that no one is asking except Leica nutz...

The Dentists and Bankers and Doctors and fondlers will be their customer base - along with a tiny minority of self styled pros - who like bragging rights.

That's harsh especially the "Leica nutz" bit but I gotta agree with you, Pete.

Does the market for bragging rights even exists today? The stock market pretty much wiped it out.

The S2 is either going to be all things to all people or neither fish nor fowl. Somehow, I fear that it is the latter.

 

[Paratom]

People - dont get sucked into marketing BS. The economics for the S2 dont add up.

You don't buy a MF lens for wide open capability - you buy it for quality @ F8-16, if it is fast @ wide open thats a bonus at the margin.

Even if many lenses and many purposes peoploe buy MF lenses for f8-16 quality, there are still people using a Zeiss110/2.0 or Rollei 180/2.8 or Mamiya 150/2.8 or Hassy 100/110mm and I would assume not only for using it at f8 and f16.

 

[yaya]

Time will tell but today's world, in many ways, requires flexibility which means either one tool that can do everything (impossible) or one tool that can do many things and leave some $$$ for some extra tools.

A digital back can do more than an S2 because it can be used on different platforms, its sensor is easier to clean, its tethering is proven and it packs into a small pouch for carrying on a plane. Being the most expensive part of your kit, it leaves $$$ for a spare body or an additional camera, say a DSLR. It also has a solid resell/ trade-in value when the time comes to change.

A DSLR can do more than an S2 because it is faster, has (most likely) better high iso, has plenty of good zoom lenses, has on-board Live Video, it's weather proof (proven) and its lenses can be used on a lesser, backup body. It is also likely to have a solid resell value when the time comes to change.

Saying that, the S2 might do just about everything for its target market(s).

Yair