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Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

I actually meant the question a bit more literally. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting you go for a Q, just asking if you had a chance to look at the viewfinder in person. Leica's EVF on the Q is the highest resolving in the industry at 3.7 million dots, and it looks incredible. This EVF might make its way into other future Leica products.
I see, well, the resolution isn't as much of interest (to me) as the responsiveness ( esp. in low light), if I want focus accuracy I'd use magnification anyway. This is of course partly a problem of the CPU being able to quickly and efficiently pull an image off the sensor, which I believe is hard to do on large and high-res sensors. I know of one local Leica boutique so I could at least take a look at (through) it to see the state of this tech.

Obviously, there is noise, but the pattern is tightly packed and monochromatic. There is still good detail, sharpness and color. Oh, and did I mention that it was handheld with no timer or mirror lockup? The mirror and shutter on the S007 is extremely soft and well damped.

To bring this full circle, if a possible future CMOSIS sensor-based DB does in fact negate the need for LCCs when using movements, wouldn't that be a step in the right direction?
The noise does look dangerously similar to what I get with the 645Z, which is a good thing, it also has nearly all-monochromatic noise even at high ISOs. Except I'd expect that level of noise at 12,800 not 6400. I'm not banging on the S at all here, I was fully expecting it to do worse :p

I can also hand-hold the 645Z with 55mm at 1/30th well enough, although 1/125th is probably a better idea for guaranteed sharpness, also keep in mind that camera shake is a factor of pixel density, so at 51mp the Z invariably needs higher speeds to start with. The hot topic right now is image stabilization, so I'm disappointed to see Leica not take initiative in this direction since the S seems so heavily focused on hand-held use, what with Sony already showing everyone that IBIS can be done even in a compact mirrorless full-frame camera. Pentax already has two IS lenses out, but Leica could have their entire lineup with stabilization if they go this route.
 

thrice

Active member
It is pretty clear to me that Leica acquired Sinar in order to gain professional credibility and be the first brand to offer solutions in every category of camera. I have seen no growth, no extra product development and certainly a very disruptive influence on the product distribution that Sinar had.
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Yes,

That was reported at Photokina. But the latest report I have seen said undisclosed vendor but not Sony. The Leica Q does not use the CMOSIS sensor. Just to make it clear, CMOSIS is chip design company, they don't make sensors. The Leica M (240) sensor is made at ST Microelectronics in Belgium. As the original CMOSIS developed design had a DR of 12.3 EV it is not feasible that a new sensor would give 15EV, that would take an entirely new design.

So the question is justified.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. Michael Reichmann has previewed the S (typ 007) and he writes:

The sensor in the Leica S(007) is a new CMOS design. Leica has not mentioned who the manufacturer is, but it is definitely not Sony.
Misinformation does no one any good. Let me clarify:

The sensor in the S007 is the same Leica/CMOSIS architecture as the one in the M240, manufactured by ST Micro. It features updated D/A electronics, new readout hardware and new algorithms in the Maestro II image processing engine. The base ISO has also been dropped one stop. Cumulatively, these changes allow it to achieve a higher DR of 15 stops.

It is not a new design, just a tweaked one over the one used in the M240.

The information that you quoted Michael on would apply to the Q, not the S. I have talked to the product managers of the S and to the head of R&D at Leica. My information is accurate.


Photokina 2014: Day 2 – Everything you need to know about the Leica S (Typ 007) | Red Dot Forum

Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007) | Red Dot Forum
 

PeterA

Well-known member
It is pretty clear to me that Leica acquired Sinar in order to gain professional credibility and be the first brand to offer solutions in every category of camera. I have seen no growth, no extra product development and certainly a very disruptive influence on the product distribution that Sinar had.
Leica would do well to walk away from any thoughts of resurrecting the Sinar brand as fast as they can.
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
I see, well, the resolution isn't as much of interest (to me) as the responsiveness ( esp. in low light), if I want focus accuracy I'd use magnification anyway. This is of course partly a problem of the CPU being able to quickly and efficiently pull an image off the sensor, which I believe is hard to do on large and high-res sensors. I know of one local Leica boutique so I could at least take a look at (through) it to see the state of this tech.
With the Maestro II processor, the refresh rate is 60 fps, which results in very smooth, lag-free live view. The LV on the S007 is particularly smooth, with no redrawing necessary as you scroll around the image at 100%. Exposure simulation is also instantaneous. In low light, LV still works great. I used it when using ND filters for long exposures. You can't see anything in the optical viewfinder, but the picture looks totally normal on the LCD. Very helpful. If you do go see the Q, you'll find that its LV at night is very, very good.

The noise does look dangerously similar to what I get with the 645Z, which is a good thing, it also has nearly all-monochromatic noise even at high ISOs. Except I'd expect that level of noise at 12,800 not 6400. I'm not banging on the S at all here, I was fully expecting it to do worse :p
And, we still don't know what official Adobe support for the camera will bring relative to noise and high ISO.

I can also hand-hold the 645Z with 55mm at 1/30th well enough, although 1/125th is probably a better idea for guaranteed sharpness, also keep in mind that camera shake is a factor of pixel density, so at 51mp the Z invariably needs higher speeds to start with. The hot topic right now is image stabilization, so I'm disappointed to see Leica not take initiative in this direction since the S seems so heavily focused on hand-held use, what with Sony already showing everyone that IBIS can be done even in a compact mirrorless full-frame camera. Pentax already has two IS lenses out, but Leica could have their entire lineup with stabilization if they go this route.

I have another shot that's sharp at 1/15th handheld, if that would help illustrate my point any better. :)

Leica has shied away from IS on the S because of its inherent image quality loss. Even on the Q, which is aimed at a totally different segment, the manual states that IS is off by default as it offers better image quality to not use it. Leica is emphatic on this point. They will not purposely degrade IQ, even if it is a small amount, for the sake of features.
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
It is pretty clear to me that Leica acquired Sinar in order to gain professional credibility and be the first brand to offer solutions in every category of camera. I have seen no growth, no extra product development and certainly a very disruptive influence on the product distribution that Sinar had.
One thing is for sure... none invests money in our days to lose money!!! IMO Leica has invested on to Sinar and additionally counted for the (sort future) loses before they will apply any changes... IMO it will all start (with Sinar) after the new sensor will be implemented in the next to come series of Sinarbacks... I'm pretty sure that Sinar is a very important part of of all their pre-calculated and very carefully planned future to dominate all high end photography and professional photography...
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
Leica would do well to walk away from any thoughts of resurrecting the Sinar brand as fast as they can.
That's among the most bold statements an ignorant would ever do... It's like advising one that bought a goldmine to shut it down... Sinar's experience and knowledge into managing color are second to none and so is their tradition for the best cameras with movements in the world... IMO Sinar will be selling more MFDBs than P1 in the near future and the cameras to come will put both Cambo and Arca in a very difficult position... Also... I expect Sinar to be the leaders in software for accurate professional work shortly...
 

stephengilbert

Active member
I thought insulting posts about people's ignorance were frowned upon here.

I guess I'll have to watch out for ignorant comments (and commenters) so I can point out their error.
 
Leica has shied away from IS on the S because of its inherent image quality loss. Even on the Q, which is aimed at a totally different segment, the manual states that IS is off by default as it offers better image quality to not use it. Leica is emphatic on this point. They will not purposely degrade IQ, even if it is a small amount, for the sake of features.
If the IS system is causing quality loss, it's probably as a result of a poor implementation, rather than something that's inherently wrong with the system. Does the Q's stabilization work like Olympus and Sony's 5-axis or is it digital? the latter is obviously a poor choice. There was never a time when I purposefully disabled IS on any of my Canon lenses, even when shooting at higher shutter speeds and in good light.
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
That's among the most bold statements an ignorant would ever do... It's like advising one that bought a goldmine to shut it down... Sinar's experience and knowledge into managing color are second to none and so is their tradition for the best cameras with movements in the world... IMO Sinar will be selling more MFDBs than P1 in the near future and the cameras to come will put both Cambo and Arca in a very difficult position... Also... I expect Sinar to be the leaders in software for accurate professional work shortly...
Sorry ....

Heads up !!!!

Peter has probably made more money investing than the rest of us combined ...

He has the ability to read deeper into situations than you or I will ever be able to do.

Bold yes ... ignorant ... not by my estimation.

Would be best to know who you diss before you do so.

Otherwise you look a bit uninformed. And that is a generous way of spinning it.

JMHO.

Regards,

Bob
 
Sorry ....

Heads up !!!!

Peter has probably made more money investing than the rest of us combined ...

He has the ability to read deeper into situations than you or I will ever be able to do.

Bold yes ... ignorant ... not by my estimation.

Would be best to know who you diss before you do so.

Otherwise you look a bit uninformed. And that is a generous way of spinning it.

JMHO.

Regards,

Bob
Indeed, time will tell if the investing in Sinar was a wise decision.

We remember as Leica tried to acquire Sinar several years ago and withdraw unexpectedly. After that Sinar moved the office and became a smaller company.
It's a second attempt for Leica to join forces with what is left of Sinar.
The brand recognition is still very good, and I know from my own experience of personal interaction with the Sinar staff that they are very knowledgeable and capable people. Their electronic shutter system is very advanced, the new cameras eventually will be smaller and more adapted to the new generation of live view digital backs.
Leica will never be the same, it's moving away from being a Hermes company.

BTW, the investment prophecy and ability to make money in my view shall not be an argument. You never know, maybe some other members of the board can buy Leica and Sinar (Companies) together for cash. What is important, I believe , that Leica have been trying to do business with Sinar and invested a serious amount of money into them.
It's very difficult to see the reasons of the business decisions from the outside, but we can speculate here. :D

From the recent press release we know that the new Sinarbacks will be available early next year. Than we will see if the landscape is changed. I am still using my Sinarback 54H with the LC -Shutter for live view and I am not impressed enough with the other solutions to change the camp yet.

Yevgeny
 

PeterA

Well-known member
That's among the most bold statements an ignorant would ever do... It's like advising one that bought a goldmine to shut it down... Sinar's experience and knowledge into managing color are second to none and so is their tradition for the best cameras with movements in the world... IMO Sinar will be selling more MFDBs than P1 in the near future and the cameras to come will put both Cambo and Arca in a very difficult position... Also... I expect Sinar to be the leaders in software for accurate professional work shortly...
Sinar do indeed have the best multishot back currently in the world - it is the system of choice amongst many museums and galleries when it comes to accurate reproduction of colour. Sinar has always had the best colour tech. I have owned and tested every manufacturer's offerings in MFD over the last 15 years. Search the history of this site- and you will find I was using an Alpa with Schneider lenses and MFD backs - before most had ever even heard of the brand. As for Sinar and MFD experience - I own and use an HY6 system ( a camera now that is not supported ) as well as an artec system in Hy6 mount. Do your research and see how Sinar has treated its past customers who invested deeply in their systems - it has been atrocious. The company was a rabble - before Leica took them over.

Now you say Sinar has all this knowledge about camera movements and manufacturing of cameras - and I say to you have you seen the Sinar manufacturing capability - are you aware of how they go about building their cameras - when they did , who the outsourced agencies were that they used? Are you aware of just how tiny the tech camera market is? Forget reference to sites like this - which is inhabited by high end camera enthusiasts most of whom are capable of making a nice photograph. ..

So you say Leica will make a digital back for Sinar - as part of a master plan to dominate the high end professional world- and I say that the well healed amateur photographer is a bigger market for MFD than your so called high end professionals - and has been for nearly a decade.
I ask you and what will people do with their Leica / Sinar MFD back - what system(s) will this MFD back attach itself to? and how big is this market?

The LeicaSinar MFD back could attach itself to existing tech cameras- but these cameras use Rodensotck and Schneider lenses - will Leica like the idea of becoming a bit player in this type of market? I think not.
So you say well leica can build its own MF camera body and I say to do what compete with the S camera ? Really
So you say well a Leica/Sinar back can attach itself to all the legacy Sinar Studio cameras- and I say to you - have you ever used some of this clunky rubbish with a MFD back and tried to get accurate camera movements and focus and are you aware of the many improved technologies available to high end studios for product shots ??

So yes - Leica IS a very good company making very good products I own and use many of these myself - however I can't 'see' Leica investing in new tech camera systems optimised for tech camera shooting using a new digital back and a new line of leica badged tech lenses - to compete in a diminishing market against established optics companies like Schneider and Rodenstock - who quite frankly have their own problems...

and even if they did - apart from dusty corners of enthusiast photographers like this forum - who would really care - how big are these new high end markets?

Now look at some well known architectural photographers - many are shifting to modified small movement systems from Arca and Cambo etc - and attaching Sony A7R/R11 or Nikon or Canon DSLR bodies and using their own existing lenses or buying a set of Hartblei type lenses or even cheaper buying and using canon tilt shift lenses

So my opinion coming from a user of Sinar/Leica/Alpa/Hasselblad/Phase One and Leaf /Son/Nikon/Canon/Rodenstock and Schneider as well as various tech camera systems from Sunar/Arca and now soon Cambo - is just what exactly is Leica going to bring to this market and why?

I can tell you from Sinar dealers that I know - that their work today is mainly trying to explain why a client's Hy6 cant be fixed and why the Artec was built with such little adaptability as far as mount systems go- and not even designed for easy nodal point shooting...yes the occasional sale of a high end multi-shot back might happen - that is the one area where quality can still compete against the marketing BS from Phase One and its single shot nonsense. Big deal.

One final thing - I had the benefit of a classical education - and if my memory serves correct your user name alludes to teach or teaching - a good teacher never insults his would be students.

No hard feelings - for me it is all about fun.

- Pete
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
Sorry ....

Heads up !!!!

Peter has probably made more money investing than the rest of us combined ...

He has the ability to read deeper into situations than you or I will ever be able to do.

Bold yes ... ignorant ... not by my estimation.

Would be best to know who you diss before you do so.

Otherwise you look a bit uninformed. And that is a generous way of spinning it.

JMHO.

Regards,

Bob
The phrase "That's among the most bold statements an ignorant would ever do..." doesn't have to do with Peter as a person or photographer or aims to claim that Peter is an ignorant... It simply means that since the statement "Leica would do well to walk away from any thoughts of resurrecting the Sinar brand as fast as they can" is a bold one by definition (ie lucks reasoning)... usually, ignorants do such a statement... I'm sure that Peter's later statement (where he admits Sinar's superiority on many image quality aspects - maybe the most important ones for some of us..) explains what he really meant... We all (that have been or are customers of Sinar) have complains about some of Sinar's past policies and perhaps the financial collapse of the company was their own fault... but I'm sure Leica bought the company to use (and help maximize) the technology aspects where Sinar is a world leader... not to close it down!
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
Now you say Sinar has all this knowledge about camera movements and manufacturing of cameras - and I say to you have you seen the Sinar manufacturing capability - are you aware of how they go about building their cameras - when they did , who the outsourced agencies were that they used? Are you aware of just how tiny the tech camera market is? Forget reference to sites like this - which is inhabited by high end camera enthusiasts most of whom are capable of making a nice photograph. ..

So you say Leica will make a digital back for Sinar - as part of a master plan to dominate the high end professional world- and I say that the well healed amateur photographer is a bigger market for MFD than your so called high end professionals - and has been for nearly a decade.
I ask you and what will people do with their Leica / Sinar MFD back - what system(s) will this MFD back attach itself to? and how big is this market?

The LeicaSinar MFD back could attach itself to existing tech cameras- but these cameras use Rodensotck and Schneider lenses - will Leica like the idea of becoming a bit player in this type of market? I think not.
So you say well leica can build its own MF camera body and I say to do what compete with the S camera ? Really
So you say well a Leica/Sinar back can attach itself to all the legacy Sinar Studio cameras- and I say to you - have you ever used some of this clunky rubbish with a MFD back and tried to get accurate camera movements and focus and are you aware of the many improved technologies available to high end studios for product shots ??

So yes - Leica IS a very good company making very good products I own and use many of these myself - however I can't 'see' Leica investing in new tech camera systems optimised for tech camera shooting using a new digital back and a new line of leica badged tech lenses - to compete in a diminishing market against established optics companies like Schneider and Rodenstock - who quite frankly have their own problems...

and even if they did - apart from dusty corners of enthusiast photographers like this forum - who would really care - how big are these new high end markets?

Now look at some well known architectural photographers - many are shifting to modified small movement systems from Arca and Cambo etc - and attaching Sony A7R/R11 or Nikon or Canon DSLR bodies and using their own existing lenses or buying a set of Hartblei type lenses or even cheaper buying and using canon tilt shift lenses

So my opinion coming from a user of Sinar/Leica/Alpa/Hasselblad/Phase One and Leaf /Son/Nikon/Canon/Rodenstock and Schneider as well as various tech camera systems from Sunar/Arca and now soon Cambo - is just what exactly is Leica going to bring to this market and why?

- Pete
I think you have completely misunderstood my expectations about Sinar's future Peter... I never said that Leica will make any digital backs for Sinar, or that Sinar will have new cameras with Roddies or Schneiders (they already did and continue to offer that)... I only said that I expect the new sensor to be used on Sinarbacks too, that Sinar is expected to also join the "small view camera" market (like Actus or Universalis) and that it would make sense if Leica would integrate another MF platform like Contax or Hasselblad H as to "bridge" (future) Sinar products with Leica and have their own platform for their MFDBs... In that case, I would expect the same MF platform lenses to work with full dedication on the competitive to Actus small view camera and also I would expect the same for the Sinarbacks... Lets not forget that Leica is a traditional mirrorless camera maker and thus, a "Cambo Actus like" small Sinar view camera, could be used with Leica Q or M instead of an MFDB... In fact, It seems to me that the Q mount has the size that is needed for a FF sensor.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
It really would be interesting to know the reasoning behind the Sinar/Leica association.

When you look at the S system, the only real missing element are T/S solutions, especially Macro and W/A where full movements are very helpful. How important that may be in the over-all scheme of things in today's marketplace is not really clear. However, Leica does dabble in low volume markets (albeit at even more lofty prices).

It may be that there are proprietary precision technologies that Sinar had (or had under development) that we aren't privy to? That wouldn't necessarily require supporting the Sinar brand as much as utilizing many aspects under the Leica brand name … perhaps not unlike when Hasselblad and Imacon united, but the Hasselblad brand remained dominate.

A T/S camera with a micro step Multi-Shot capability that you bolted a S camera to could be pretty interesting.

- Marc
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
It really would be interesting to know the reasoning behind the Sinar/Leica association.

When you look at the S system, the only real missing element are T/S solutions, especially Macro and W/A where full movements are very helpful. How important that may be in the over-all scheme of things in today's marketplace is not really clear. However, Leica does dabble in low volume markets (albeit at even more lofty prices).

It may be that there are proprietary precision technologies that Sinar had (or had under development) that we aren't privy to? That wouldn't necessarily require supporting the Sinar brand as much as utilizing many aspects under the Leica brand name … perhaps not unlike when Hasselblad and Imacon united, but the Hasselblad brand remained dominate.

A T/S camera with a micro step Multi-Shot capability that you bolted a S camera to could be pretty interesting.

- Marc
Hence... it is quite obvious that Leica has other plans for Sinar.....
 

Ken_R

New member
I actually meant the question a bit more literally. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting you go for a Q, just asking if you had a chance to look at the viewfinder in person. Leica's EVF on the Q is the highest resolving in the industry at 3.7 million dots, and it looks incredible. This EVF might make its way into other future Leica products.



Sure, there are plenty of Sony-based DBs on the market, and Leica hasn't announced any plans for one at this point. But, with Leica's resources, it would be interesting to see how they might implement one. And, we don't know the full potential of the updated CMOSIS sensor in the S007 quite yet. Right now there are no camera profiles in LR for it. I saw a rather significant jump in IQ between versions of LR when I was testing the Q back in June, especially related to noise performance. Even still, the current S007 high ISO is nothing to sneeze at. Here is a test shot I did at ISO 6400, handheld at 1/30th of a sec, wide open on the 45mm.



Here's a 100% crop.



Obviously, there is noise, but the pattern is tightly packed and monochromatic. There is still good detail, sharpness and color. Oh, and did I mention that it was handheld with no timer or mirror lockup? The mirror and shutter on the S007 is extremely soft and well damped.


To bring this full circle, if a possible future CMOSIS sensor-based DB does in fact negate the need for LCCs when using movements, wouldn't that be a step in the right direction?
Focus looks spot on and the overall image is very clean with really nice color. The bokeh looks quite good as well. Thanks for posting!
 
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