Please help a total MF noob choose the right gear

[RiGo]

Hello everyone,

I'm an architectural photographer and I've decided to make the jump to medium format. I have never shot using anything other than DSRLs and I have no idea about anything MF so it will be a steep learning curve.

I'm hoping to get some impartial guidance as I've asked a local dealer for some information and although very helpful he has a vested interest, so I would like to get other opinions on the setup that will best suit me.

I'm currently shooting with a 5D MkIII and tilt shift lenses (17mm, 24mm and 45mm). I would like to keep these focal lengths as I've become used to them. As I'm shooting architecture, shifting is very important and I manage to do some pretty big shifts (up to 12mm) with all my lenses. I would like to retain this ability with my new system.

Given this information, the dealer has recommended the following setup:

IQ180 back (they have a used one for a good price)
Cambo Wide RS
Cambo Wide-DS Rodenstock 23mm f5.6 HR Digaron-S Lenspanel
Cambo Wide-RS Rodenstock 40mm f4.0 HR Digaron-W Lenspanel
Cambo Wide-DS Rodenstock 70mm f5.6 HR Digaron-W Lenspanel
Accessories

So, I have a some questions. It would be great if you could answer them:

1. How does this setup sound given how I shoot as explained above? Especially regarding image circle size and the ability to obtain equivalent shifting to my current setup.
2. Why would he have chosen these particular lenses - does Schneider make equivalent lenses?
3. Does a guide exist with an explanation to all the Rodenstock and Schneider lens naming? HR? Digaron-s? Digaron-W? Lenspanel?
4. I'm used to composing through the viewfinder. How true to the actual image are technical camera viewfinders?
5. Will I have to buy a really powerful computer to handle the 80megapixel files? If so, I might be better off buying an IQ160. I'm only getting the IQ180 as it's used and therefore cheaper. Don't really need 80megapixels.

Thanks for your help everyone!

 

[f8orbust]

1. Cambo RS - great system - lots of movements. R/S Digaron-S and -W - great lenses. Buy the 40 and 70 in T/S panels. N.B. The 23mm (IRC) has a 70mm IC, so on an IQ180 hardly any movement is possible.

2. Yes, Schneider do, but due to their design (symmetrical vs retrofocus) and the design of the sensor in the IQ180, you can’t shift the wide angle lenses very far due to issues like crosstalk (i.e. the 28 in particular, and the 35). That’s a shame, because they are great lenses and generally have larger ICs (in fact, I'd go so far as to say the 28 - with a 90mm IC - is one of the greatest lenses ever made). Plus, for architectural photography, symmetrical designs are preferable because they are virtually distortion free.

3. Yes, see the Rodenstock website and some of the literature produced be Alpa.

4. The Cambo viewfinder is awful. Buy an Alpa or Arca one (and adapt to fit), or use the iPhone adapter (if you have an iPhone, that is) and an iPhone + eFinder II app. They are all generally a pretty good match, but obviously the closer the subject, the larger the parallax. If you can live with ‘only’ 50MP then the H/B CFV-50c or IQ150/250/350 all have true live view (CMOS sensors), so you can dispense with a viewfinder. N.B. We’re not that far from seeing the first full-frame CMOS DB appear (~100MP), but it will be mucho dinero (unless H/B bring out a version for their V-system).

5. No, not a super powerful one. Even modern laptops can handle the files nicely. If you do a lot of compositing in PS then obviously a powerful computer with lots of RAM and an SSD is a good combo. If you don’t really need 80MP then the IQ160 is a good alternative since it behaves a lot better with Schneider wide-angles and so you avoid some of the limitations of working with an IQ180. Plus, you can pick them up for less - on the used private market IQ180s are going for around the $14k mark, whereas IQ160s go for $12k or less.

Jim

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

Hello everyone,

I'm an architectural photographer and I've decided to make the jump to medium format. I have never shot using anything other than DSRLs and I have no idea about anything MF so it will be a steep learning curve.

I'm hoping to get some impartial guidance as I've asked a local dealer for some information and although very helpful he has a vested interest, so I would like to get other opinions on the setup that will best suit me.

I'm currently shooting with a 5D MkIII and tilt shift lenses (17mm, 24mm and 45mm). I would like to keep these focal lengths as I've become used to them. As I'm shooting architecture, shifting is very important and I manage to do some pretty big shifts (up to 12mm) with all my lenses. I would like to retain this ability with my new system.

Given this information, the dealer has recommended the following setup:

IQ180 back (they have a used one for a good price)
Cambo Wide RS
Cambo Wide-DS Rodenstock 23mm f5.6 HR Digaron-S Lenspanel
Cambo Wide-RS Rodenstock 40mm f4.0 HR Digaron-W Lenspanel
Cambo Wide-DS Rodenstock 70mm f5.6 HR Digaron-W Lenspanel
Accessories

That would be an awesome system, I'll tell you that much right there. Still dreaming of getting a tech cam with the 32mm HR some day.

So, I have a some questions. It would be great if you could answer them:

1. How does this setup sound given how I shoot as explained above? Especially regarding image circle size and the ability to obtain equivalent shifting to my current setup.
2. Why would he have chosen these particular lenses - does Schneider make equivalent lenses?
3. Does a guide exist with an explanation to all the Rodenstock and Schneider lens naming? HR? Digaron-s? Digaron-W? Lenspanel?
4. I'm used to composing through the viewfinder. How true to the actual image are technical camera viewfinders?
5. Will I have to buy a really powerful computer to handle the 80megapixel files? If so, I might be better off buying an IQ160. I'm only getting the IQ180 as it's used and therefore cheaper. Don't really need 80megapixels.

1. I think it should be close in usability, except the 23mm will give you a wider field of view than 17mm, but has only 2mm shift with a full-frame sensor. I'm not aware of which lens could give you both the FoV and shiftability of the 17mm TS-E.
2. Because of the sensor being put behind it. Schneider lens designs don't play well with sensors that are easily susceptible to color cast and some are unusable even unshifted, Rodies are more expensive but they are compatible with more sensors. If you swap the IQ180 out for an IQ160, you'll be able to use Schneider lenses just fine.
3. Digaron is their digital-optimized lens line; HR is high-resolution, meaning they can resolve 100lp/mm; -S and -W mean "standard" and "wide", referring to their image circles, -W lenses have wider ICs for greater shift capability. A lens panel is the lens mount for your camera body, tech lenses are brand-agnostic, and so are sometimes sold without mounting hardware. Rodie lenses also have different-colored bands around the lens barrel that refer to their revision, yellow is the newest I believe.
4. No experience here, sorry.
5. Depends on what you have now, I have a 5-year old iMac that's struggling somewhat with 51mp files, never mind 80mp, so you'll definitely want a top-line quad core CPU, 16GB of RAM and an SSD to get decent throughput.

 

[f8orbust]

Taking a quick look at the Alpa data, on an IQ180 (or IQ160, since the sensor is about the same size):

23mm ~ 15mm on a 35mm camera.
40mm ~ 26mm on a 35mm camera.
70mm ~ 45mm on a 35mm camera.

You could get a bit closer to your ideal focal lengths at the W/A end using a 28 (~18mm) and a 36 (~23mm) in place of the 23 and 40 (respectively), but then you would be better off with an IQ160 due to shifting issues (if you were to get the Schneider 28 and 36).

 

[RiGo]

Thank you Jim and K-P for your replies. Very helpful.

I have some follow up questions...


1. Why would I buy the 40mm and 70mm in T/S panels? I hardly ever use tilt. I'm assuming the shifting will be done by the Cambo, so why would I need a T/S panel? Shifting the cambo would be better anyway for stitching to avoid parallax. I just don't know how the T/S panels work.
2. Would the IQ160 with the Schneider 28mm and Rodenstock 40mm and 70mm be better than the IQ180 with the Rodie 23mm?
3. What's a good place to look for used backs at around $12k?
4. What do you mean by "true liveview"? What's the liveview on the IQ160 and IQ180?

Thanks again!

 

[Don Libby]

Just a couple very quick ideas (I'll add more later when I have time)

One of the reasons to go for an IQ160/180 is the ability to tether with a Surface Pro 2/3 via the USB3 port. That way what you see is what you get. There's a long thread here someplace regarding tethering with great information.

T/S lens can come in handy especially when you bight need that extra 1mm of tilt so I wouldn't discount them.

Re Cambo WRS - it is my oldest camera system I own (since 2008) and still going strong to day without any trouble in all types of conditions.

The biggest issue besides the camera gear is finding a dealer that you can trust and it appears you have since they didn't immediately try and sell you the newest brightest back; instead they suggested a used IQ180 which is a great back.

Computers - 16GB RAM - maybe no more than 24 should be more than enough (I have 98GB RAM but then most of my image files exceed 2GB and I have been known to dabble in video). While a laptop will work nothing in my opinion beats a desktop for final processing (I also have a laptop and Surface Pro for field work).

Get the camera gear first then we'll help you spend your money on the computer.

One last thing - where are you located? We tend to be a close knit family and if possible someone can give you hands on experience. I'm in the Tucson area and am willing to share.

More later....

don

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

1. Why would I buy the 40mm and 70mm in T/S panels? I hardly ever use tilt. I'm assuming the shifting will be done by the Cambo, so why would I need a T/S panel? Shifting the cambo would be better anyway for stitching to avoid parallax. I just don't know how the T/S panels work.

Cambo bodies have no built-in tilt capability, so be sure you're not going to do tilt, or you won't have it at all.

2. Would the IQ160 with the Schneider 28mm and Rodenstock 40mm and 70mm be better than the IQ180 with the Rodie 23mm?
3. What's a good place to look for used backs at around $12k?

Others can probably answer these questions better. Here is a comparison of the SK and Rodie 28mm lenses: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/lens-an...-28mm-hr-vs-schneider-super-digitar-28xl.html

4. What do you mean by "true liveview"? What's the liveview on the IQ160 and IQ180?

On a typical DSLR or other CMOS-based camera, LV is fairly simple, you press a button and an image pops up at 30fps with no fiddling required. On a CCD-based camera like the IQ160/180, you get a 3~5fps image that will be horribly overexposed unless you put a ND filter in front of the lens while setting up in LV mode, and removing it before the shot.
It's enough to at least zoom in and set critical focus, but it's not as simple as what you're used to with the 5D3.

 

[dougpeterson]

Focal length equivalent and image circle visualizers:
https://www.digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-visualizers

 

[dougpeterson]

1. Why would I buy the 40mm and 70mm in T/S panels? I hardly ever use tilt. I'm assuming the shifting will be done by the Cambo, so why would I need a T/S panel? Shifting the cambo would be better anyway for stitching to avoid parallax. I just don't know how the T/S panels work.

T/S in this case stands for Tilt/Swing not Tilt/Shift.

Cambo body has rise/fall and shift built in. A Cambo T/S lens panel adds tilt and swing. For architecture (in contrast to landscape) tilt and swing are less often required but you probably know better than us whether you need tilt and swing or not. For sure you need rise/fall/shift but these are built into the body of any tech camera.

Since you've not had much experience in this area I'd suggest broadening your search before homing in on a final selection. For instance you've homed in on Cambo, which is a great solution, but you should probably consider Arca and Alpa, and depending on where you're located you might want to add Linhof (their distribution in the US has been historically awful but in Europe I understand there is good support/service). Here is a overview of Arca/Cambo/Alpa capabilities:
Tech Camera Overview

Even if your dealer has recommended Cambo a lot of this is personal. While there are technical advantages and disadvantages to each platform, they are all very capable, and there is no right or wrong options. A lot comes down to how it feels in your hands and what your priorities are. Switching tech camera platforms is a messy and expensive endeavor so before you drop five digits on a platform you should be quite sure it is the right one for you.

 

[kdphotography]

With a USB3 enabled MFDB, tethering on location with a Surface Pro can be very helpful. This is the thread that Don Libby was mentioning about tethering with the Surface Pro: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-...do-mfdbs.html?highlight=surface+pro+tethering The original article is on my website blog, as well as another blog article on the latest clamping options.

FF CMOS MFDB for live view would be ideal, but I'd surmise we are about 1-2 years before a new FF CMOS MFDB release with Phase One. In the meantime, the Surface Pro option with C1 Pro works great on full res RAW files: zoom to check focus, multiple focus points, focus mask, and my favorite---the loupe tool.

Why t/s panel on the Cambo? Well, tilt is always nice. But don't forget the swing. Everyone loves a swinger!
No really, sometimes swing comes in handy.

Ok, back for the french roast coffee....

 

[vjbelle]

One of the more successful Architectural Photographers (Chris Barrett) has gotten rid of most of his MF gear and is now using a Sony Mirrorless camera on a small Arca Swiss Universalis and seems to be very happy. You may want to do some searches to find some info either here or on LL. The Cambo Actus could easily be exchanged for the Universalis..... if I were starting out all over again I would definitely want to explore those alternatives. I believe you could find a wealth of information at Capture Integration as they are dealers for both systems. This all makes a ton of sense if you don't need more than 42mp. Needless to say this saves you a lot of money!

Victor

 

[Paul2660]

Be aware that all the Rodenstocks, 23mm and 40mm for sure will suffer from Mustache distortion. So cars, will be elongated and fatter towards the edge of your frame. Just an example. But anything that has a known size, (a building for example) will show it. As you get towards the edge of the frame your structures will take on a elongated effect. The Alpa lens correction software can't fix this, as you need to warp the image to really fix it. For landscapes it's not a big an issue. The problem will get worse as you shift. Some lenses have it seemingly worse than others, but by design, retrofocus wides will show this.

The 23mm is a 70mm IC, thus on any 60MP or larger back, you will be limited to only 5mm of useable shift Max. Past that and you hit the internal Image Circle indicator (not sure if this was discussed as you mentioned you want to shift). All Rodenstocks have a IC indicator to allow you know what you hit the edge of the IC, and it creates a hard vignette that will ruin your shot. The 40mm will allow you about 16mm of shift before you start to see it.
You can get a bit more rise, maybe 7mm on the 23mm due to the layout of a Phase One chip. The 23mm also will greatly benefit from a center filter, which will reduce the on the edges. But you can shoot without it. You also may see a white band before you see the hard vignette which can be just as damaging to the final image. I see it with my 28mm Rodenstock but not so often my 40mm.

The Schneiders, say 35XL will not have the distortion, but they will show more color cast, especially on a 80MP Phase chip. You can push a 35XL to about 8mm of shift on a Phase One 60MP back, but not anywhere close to that on the 80MP backs, as the pixel pitch is smaller. The 35XL is a symmetrical design and has much less distortion. The 35XL has to have a center filter to even out the frame.

The lens that most seem to prefer is the 32mm Rodenstock, as it has the larger 90mm IC, and thus can take a lot more shift. Rodenstock claims they designed the 32mm with the 80MP Phase backs in mind. The 32mm actually will cost a bit less than your 23mm I believe and you may find it a lot more useful, albeit, you will need to shift to get the same amount of field of view that the 23mm would have.

Other note, I have used on either a Phase One 80MP or 60MP back, the 23mm, 28mm, 40mm and 32mm Rodenstocks. I am a shifter and look to shift in all my work, the max possible.

Paul

 

[jerome_m]

Given this information, the dealer has recommended the following setup:

IQ180 back (they have a used one for a good price)
Cambo Wide RS
Cambo Wide-DS Rodenstock 23mm f5.6 HR Digaron-S Lenspanel

You can't shift the 23mm on the IQ180 back, the image circle is just big enough for the IQ180 sensor.

I'm currently shooting with a 5D MkIII and tilt shift lenses (17mm, 24mm and 45mm). I would like to keep these focal lengths as I've become used to them. As I'm shooting architecture, shifting is very important and I manage to do some pretty big shifts (up to 12mm) with all my lenses. I would like to retain this ability with my new system.

I don't think you will find an equivalent of the 17mm with 12mm of shift for a MF sensor.

 

[daf]

Well, if you need as you said "large shift"...Make sure to understand "shift/sensor size" before going anywhere.
12mm of shift on you FF canon = 20mm of shift on the iq180= 17mm on the iq350..
there is not many otpion for this in MFDB... no 17tse equivalent...

As an other exemple i can shoot a 55pentax at+25mm on my sony with very limited desaturation, very limited colorcast, limited CA and an ok lost of sharpness...but i would need +40mm of shift on the iq180 and even if there is some lenses which could allowed it, then most techcam system would limit your shift option by18/20/25mm ...

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

Well, if you need as you said "large shift"...Make sure to understand "shift/sensor size" before going anywhere.
12mm of shift on you FF canon = 20mm of shift on the iq180= 17mm on the iq350..
there is not many otpion for this in MFDB... no 17tse equivalent...

Good point, if we think of shift as a percentage of image width for example, then 12mm is 1/3rd the width of a 24x36 frame on the Canon, so a third of 44mm (IQx40/x50) is 14.6mm and a third of 56mm (IQx60/x80) is 18.6mm.

 

[Ken_R]

Hello everyone,

I'm an architectural photographer and I've decided to make the jump to medium format. I have never shot using anything other than DSRLs and I have no idea about anything MF so it will be a steep learning curve.

I'm hoping to get some impartial guidance as I've asked a local dealer for some information and although very helpful he has a vested interest, so I would like to get other opinions on the setup that will best suit me.

I'm currently shooting with a 5D MkIII and tilt shift lenses (17mm, 24mm and 45mm). I would like to keep these focal lengths as I've become used to them. As I'm shooting architecture, shifting is very important and I manage to do some pretty big shifts (up to 12mm) with all my lenses. I would like to retain this ability with my new system.

Given this information, the dealer has recommended the following setup:

IQ180 back (they have a used one for a good price)
Cambo Wide RS
Cambo Wide-DS Rodenstock 23mm f5.6 HR Digaron-S Lenspanel
Cambo Wide-RS Rodenstock 40mm f4.0 HR Digaron-W Lenspanel
Cambo Wide-DS Rodenstock 70mm f5.6 HR Digaron-W Lenspanel
Accessories

So, I have a some questions. It would be great if you could answer them:

1. How does this setup sound given how I shoot as explained above? Especially regarding image circle size and the ability to obtain equivalent shifting to my current setup.
2. Why would he have chosen these particular lenses - does Schneider make equivalent lenses?
3. Does a guide exist with an explanation to all the Rodenstock and Schneider lens naming? HR? Digaron-s? Digaron-W? Lenspanel?
4. I'm used to composing through the viewfinder. How true to the actual image are technical camera viewfinders?
5. Will I have to buy a really powerful computer to handle the 80megapixel files? If so, I might be better off buying an IQ160. I'm only getting the IQ180 as it's used and therefore cheaper. Don't really need 80megapixels.

Thanks for your help everyone!

That is pretty much a perfect setup for architecture and landscape.

You will love it.

I own a IQ160 and have the Rodenstock 40mm f4.0 HR Digaron-W and the 70mm f5.6 HR Digaron-W lenses and they are superb. Make all SLR lenses look crappy. Once you use them you will know what I mean.

I mostly use my setup for landscape so I did not want a wider lens but for Architecture the 23mm is a must. You won't be able to get much shift out of the 23mm with the IQ180 but it is much wider than the 17 on the Canon. For large shifts the 32mm and the 40mm are much better but for wider angle of view single shot work the 23mm is king.

 

[RiGo]

Thank you all for your great replies. Very helpful!

I guess the final question I have is how well does the Schneider 28mm plus IQ160 perform at full shift?

I really would love to keep the ability to shift with a really wide angle lens, so I'd like to know if the Schneider 28mm plus IQ160 combo will work.

Thanks!

 

[Paul2660]

Look on the reviews portion of this site, Guy did a great side by side of the Schnieder 28 and Rodenstock 28, net the Schneider is not that great with movements on the larger 60MP and 80MP backs. The 28 Rodenstock will give you max 7mm shift depending on the scene.

Paul

 

[cly]

Re distortion: The following visualization might be helpful:

http://www.alpa.ch/_files/ALPA_Distortion_Charts_20140422.pdf

I haven't had a chance to use the Rodenstock 23mm but the Rodenstock 32mm: I'm not convinced that it's an easy to use lens for architectural shots. Based on some testing of a front of building (close to a brickwall test) I can say that I would never show uncorrected images to a client of such motives. The interior test shots were less problematic. Sharpnesswise it's a truly faszinating lense but distortionwise it is IMHO horrible (but if I had the cash I'd still buy one). Looking at the above document the 23mm is much better, disortionwise, than the 32mm. If you go for it, make sure that it's true that there is a new coating which reduces the hotspot problem reported by many users and that the lens you get is from this new batch.

Something else which might be important: do you show a large number of images to your client? If you have to apply distortion correction to each and every one this is rather time consuming process (in most cases including switching from C1 to Photoshop). Plus: you have to take notes of your movements while shooting.

Something I noticed with my Schneider lenses (28mm, 43mm) and IQ140/IQ250: Cross-talk problems vary with the direction of shifting. If you shoot in portrait orientation you may be able to (up)shift much further than when shooting in landscape orientation. Because of this there are quite a few situations where you can shift the Schneider 28mm on an IQ250. But if your typical requirement is large shift in landscape orientation this is of little help.

By all means: try to test your kit in your own context/with your own requirements. It's always a compromise between various requirements such as minimal distortion, optimal color reproduction in the corners (cross-talk problems), flare resistance etc. and only you will know what is acceptable and what isn't.

Chris

 

[Don Libby]

You've gotten great advise so far so the next step is on you. Rent the kit and use it like you would on a job and see for yourself if it'll work for you or do you need to tweak anything. Better you find out beforehand than to make a costly mistake based on what others have said.

Don