D
DougDolde
Guest
Just shoot 4x5 film. You can mix and match any camera body, lens and film with nearly no limitations !
The GetDPI Photography Forum
Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!
What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
PeterA
Well-known member
Let me deconstruct ( for sake of clarity)
Just to clarify the 3 year Value Added Warranty that we recommend with Phase One backs includes a free platform swap.
this means you pay up front for a once off platform swap - for which you send the body away - hardly the same as use it on any body any time is it? Leaf offer the same 'srervice'
Though in theory the idea of changing systems being freeing
This means Pete is correct but ...
we find very few customers end up changing platforms using this free swap and end up using the free platform swap to increase the resale value of their back.
This means people dont see much utility in the way Phase presents this platform swap idea and therefore dont use it.
It's a decent insurance policy though in case the platform you choose ends up not being right for you.
This means - the use is as a sales device for you too when you decide to sell
And yes, the P series of Phase digital backs can be used on tech cameras, view cameras, home-made pinhole cameras, as well as the SLR for which they are fitted.
Sure! same for every other maker too..thats a good thing!
In addition they can do so without the need for an Image Bank,
This means Phase has an internal battery in the back - but doesn't thave the option of an external portable hardrive which also powers a back. It also means that you need 2 batteries in a Phase system as well as all other systems - (except thankfully) HD series blad - one in the back and some other in the actual camera you are using. No big deal either way - except for the hassle of all those teeny weeny batteries some camera manufacturers insist on using in their pre digi era cameras ( Mamiya and contax 645)
The Mamiya and Hassy V mounts can also be used on the Mamiya RZ and the V can also be used with a Fuji 680III.
Yes same for other backs- this is a good thing too!
Now you gotta understand where I am coming from no disrespect meant at all - I think ALL teh back makers make great backs and they all have difficult industry circumstances and I especially appreciate Doug's contributiuon to teh forum and I wish other back makers had as an enthusiastic participation as Doug !
carstenw
Active member
I don't mean to sound hostile here, but if you make it really bloody expensive and very slow to change a single back (in my understanding, the back isn't actually changed, but it sits around waiting for the desired configuration to show up, and then they are swapped?), then it is hardly surprising that no one goes for it. The single free time doesn't allow anyone to use two systems on an ongoing basis, so it wouldn't really change anything much, except as you say, make it easier to sell.
Now if Phase would actually make it easy and cheap to swap (Sinar is about 2-3 cheaper, for a single swap, and after that it is free), then you might see people take advantage of it.
As it is, it is a bit like handing out free one-way tickets to the moon. Surprise, no one comes to the party.
I ran into exactly this issue with my Leaf back. A new system comes out called the Hy6, and Leaf develops their version called the AFi. I'm interested, until I find out that the almost new $30K Leaf Aptus 75s I already own, and is identical in performance to the AFi 7 back, cannot be adapted to the AFi at all ... :wtf:
We all tend to go with whatever we're told, so we accept the lack of interchangeability like sheep. Come on, we are talking the price of a car here ... and to buy additional extended protection is pretty darn close to extortion.
The whole platform swap out/ extended warranty is an old marketing ploy using what's called "slippage" ... meaning that it sounds good at initial sale, but is an expensive option that's rarely exercised. Basically, it's an insurance scam made to sound attractive, and some buy it so they can feel secure. But secure from what? Well, the outrageous prices for fixing any of this stuff if it's out of warranty.
How many people would buy a car for $30 or $40K ... with a one year limited warranty? And you have to give up your car for weeks while it's being fixed?
These backs should be backed for 5 years, or 100,000 actuations, whichever comes first ... and be transferable. If a company believes in their product and has done a good job of engineering and manufacturing, this should be a no brainer and expose them to very little financial burden.
We all tend to go with whatever we're told, so we accept the lack of interchangeability like sheep. Come on, we are talking the price of a car here ... and to buy additional extended protection is pretty darn close to extortion.
The whole platform swap out/ extended warranty is an old marketing ploy using what's called "slippage" ... meaning that it sounds good at initial sale, but is an expensive option that's rarely exercised. Basically, it's an insurance scam made to sound attractive, and some buy it so they can feel secure. But secure from what? Well, the outrageous prices for fixing any of this stuff if it's out of warranty.
How many people would buy a car for $30 or $40K ... with a one year limited warranty? And you have to give up your car for weeks while it's being fixed?
These backs should be backed for 5 years, or 100,000 actuations, whichever comes first ... and be transferable. If a company believes in their product and has done a good job of engineering and manufacturing, this should be a no brainer and expose them to very little financial burden.
BradleyGibson
New member
Like Carsten and Peter, I have no wish to sound hostile either, but it is difficult to watch this and not inform people about what is currently transpiring between myself and your company, Capture Integration.
I purchased a value added Phase one camera and back package from Peter, which was purchased from Capture Integration just a few months earlier, and thus far, I have been unable to obtain any form of service, *including* the 3-year value added warranty support from Capture Integration for which Peter (and subsequently I) have paid for.
I think it is worth pointing out to people that this "free platform swap" is only available after paying for it (as Peter pointed out), and, in Capture Integration's case, only if you were the original purchaser. Otherwise, you are asked to pay a $400 "service fee" to access your Value Added warranty, or any support for that matter.
Needless to say, I am surprised and disappointed (to put it mildly) by this particular policy, and have taken this matter up with Phase directly.
In the meantime, I felt it important to get all the facts out there with respect to support and the Value Added Warranty.
Best regards,
-Brad
David Klepacki
New member
Sure, but the H camera system cannot accommodate ALL the Zeiss glass. Some people really like the faster Zeiss F/FE lenses (like 50/2.8, 110/2, 150/2.8, 300/2.8) and like to shoot them wide open, so stop down meter/shoot is not an issue for them. You can't use the FE lenses with the H camera, but you can use them on other cameras. All I am trying to say, like Peter, is that a back which is more flexible in how it interfaces to other cameras offers a little more freedom.
Yes, but then you always have to make sure that you stay within the same mount. The ability to easily adapt a back to different mounts makes it more flexible than a system that is fixed to only one mount. For example, if you wanted to easily switch to and from a H camera to a focal plane shutter 645 or to a 6x6 or to an arTec ... etc., you do not have as much flexibility in your camera choices.
This happens to be your own personal choice and need. There are many pros here who find professional value in focal plane shutter cameras, for example the Mamiya and PhaseOne cameras. In fact, if and when leaf shutter lenses become available for these cameras, it will be interesting to see how much market share they can capture from Hasselblad.
Yes, this should work.
I am glad we can agree on something.
Steve Hendrix
Well-known member
Will not work. The locking lever of the digital magazine on the H3D interferes with the latching mechanism of the adapter.
Steve Hendrix
Phase One
Dave Gallagher
Active member
Gentlemen,
In this tough economy we all find ourselves working twice as hard for half as much. This does not seem limited to one or two marketplaces but seems rather global in scale today. Just today in Orlando, a customer showed me a want add looking for a Professional Photographer/Class A Truck Driver. It doesn't make sense but it seems that all of us are asked to produce much more than we used to for the same pay. Of course our company has seen its set backs as well. Some days I have to remind myself to breathe. In regards to this, I apologize for not adding more to this forum. Doug keeps us abreast of the questions and issues here and has our full support to act on Capture Integration's behalf by supporting the endusers of Phase One products that are members here. Doug forwarded this thread to me early this evening and I thought it warranted an explanation on our part. Let me try to explain our policy below.
When someone buys a back from us, we sell a support package that comes with FW cables, a synch saver, LCC card, and other accessories that we see as essential for Phase One owners. We call this our Professional Support Package. With that the customer also receives unlimitted tellephone and e-mail support for as long as he or she owns that digital back. Most of this support happens in the first 120 days of ownership and it entails software license issues, C1 Pro questions, connectivity issues, etc. After that period, the questions become substantially fewer and longer in between. But we still support that customer with any issues that he or she has concerning their purchase.
Now that digital capture devices have matured we are finding that the lifetime of a digital back often extends to multiple owners. One back can now have 3-4 owners and still produce incredible imagery. The problem is that with each owner, that 120 day support cycle starts all over again. This was not an issue when we had a just a few customers, but now that we have sold units that total well over 1000 (yes, literally) these multiple ownerships puts a burden on our support staff that makes us unable to maintain profitability.
Last year we implemented our support package for DB owners that did not purchase their DB from us. Quite a few customers find that the support from their reseller is not anywhere close to the support that we provide and they choose to have Capture Integration answer their questions and solve their problems. I gladly invite those customers to use us for their support. However, that support has a value and Capture Integration should be compensated for our expertise, experience, and problem solving.
If we were B&H, then we can build a business model where support is non-existent and everyone knew that upfront. However, the Phase One product line and C1 Pro are products that will produce incredible results if used properly. And we believe that our support is a necessary part of this link. We charge $399 for unlimited technical support for endusers who did not purchase from us. I strongly feel that this amount for our level of support for the product is very modest and undervalued.
It is important to know the distinction between warranty matters and technical support. We constantly help endusers with warranty issues, such as format swaps, that did not purchase the unit from us. Scott Hoerner from this forum is a prime example just last month. Warranty support was handled through CI on a back purchased elsewhere. But if or when a line is crossed to firmware updates, technical questions, or free replacement parts this is when we require endusers to become customers of ours before we proceed with support. Simply stated.
On this forum and with all others, I will not get personal or discuss individual situations. Instead I will reiterate that my personal cell phone is always on and is available to anyone here that would like to discuss any of these matters with me. Guy and Jack, thank you for allowing us to be a part to this unique place. We do not take the privilege lightly. We appreciate you and this community greatly.
Sincerely,
Dave Gallagher
President
Capture Integration
(404) 522-7662
(770) 846-5223 Cell
In this tough economy we all find ourselves working twice as hard for half as much. This does not seem limited to one or two marketplaces but seems rather global in scale today. Just today in Orlando, a customer showed me a want add looking for a Professional Photographer/Class A Truck Driver. It doesn't make sense but it seems that all of us are asked to produce much more than we used to for the same pay. Of course our company has seen its set backs as well. Some days I have to remind myself to breathe. In regards to this, I apologize for not adding more to this forum. Doug keeps us abreast of the questions and issues here and has our full support to act on Capture Integration's behalf by supporting the endusers of Phase One products that are members here. Doug forwarded this thread to me early this evening and I thought it warranted an explanation on our part. Let me try to explain our policy below.
When someone buys a back from us, we sell a support package that comes with FW cables, a synch saver, LCC card, and other accessories that we see as essential for Phase One owners. We call this our Professional Support Package. With that the customer also receives unlimitted tellephone and e-mail support for as long as he or she owns that digital back. Most of this support happens in the first 120 days of ownership and it entails software license issues, C1 Pro questions, connectivity issues, etc. After that period, the questions become substantially fewer and longer in between. But we still support that customer with any issues that he or she has concerning their purchase.
Now that digital capture devices have matured we are finding that the lifetime of a digital back often extends to multiple owners. One back can now have 3-4 owners and still produce incredible imagery. The problem is that with each owner, that 120 day support cycle starts all over again. This was not an issue when we had a just a few customers, but now that we have sold units that total well over 1000 (yes, literally) these multiple ownerships puts a burden on our support staff that makes us unable to maintain profitability.
Last year we implemented our support package for DB owners that did not purchase their DB from us. Quite a few customers find that the support from their reseller is not anywhere close to the support that we provide and they choose to have Capture Integration answer their questions and solve their problems. I gladly invite those customers to use us for their support. However, that support has a value and Capture Integration should be compensated for our expertise, experience, and problem solving.
If we were B&H, then we can build a business model where support is non-existent and everyone knew that upfront. However, the Phase One product line and C1 Pro are products that will produce incredible results if used properly. And we believe that our support is a necessary part of this link. We charge $399 for unlimited technical support for endusers who did not purchase from us. I strongly feel that this amount for our level of support for the product is very modest and undervalued.
It is important to know the distinction between warranty matters and technical support. We constantly help endusers with warranty issues, such as format swaps, that did not purchase the unit from us. Scott Hoerner from this forum is a prime example just last month. Warranty support was handled through CI on a back purchased elsewhere. But if or when a line is crossed to firmware updates, technical questions, or free replacement parts this is when we require endusers to become customers of ours before we proceed with support. Simply stated.
On this forum and with all others, I will not get personal or discuss individual situations. Instead I will reiterate that my personal cell phone is always on and is available to anyone here that would like to discuss any of these matters with me. Guy and Jack, thank you for allowing us to be a part to this unique place. We do not take the privilege lightly. We appreciate you and this community greatly.
Sincerely,
Dave Gallagher
President
Capture Integration
(404) 522-7662
(770) 846-5223 Cell
stephengilbert
Active member
I bought a Phase One back from Capture Integration last summer. They have been unfailingly helpful and cooperative. Lance when he was still there, Dave and Doug have been very supportive, and I would not hesitate to do business with them again.
I don't know what happened that caused the dissatisfaction discussed here, but I thought a contrary, disinterested, view might be worth mentioning. Surely Capture Integration have a business reason for participating in these fora, but I think Doug's assistance with tech questions raised here by people who aren't CI customers is worth commending. I appreciate it.
Stephen Gilbert
I don't know what happened that caused the dissatisfaction discussed here, but I thought a contrary, disinterested, view might be worth mentioning. Surely Capture Integration have a business reason for participating in these fora, but I think Doug's assistance with tech questions raised here by people who aren't CI customers is worth commending. I appreciate it.
Stephen Gilbert
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Dave thank you very much for coming online and addressing the forum and explaining this better and also as a owner and customer myself of CI. I always appreciate the service attention that I receive and reason i bought through a dealer and that was and is the support lifeline. As a working Pro my lifeline is support and service of the products we use daily. I appreciate all the dealers in all the systems that provide this for there customers as I see it as a truly value added to your system purchase.
yaya
Active member
I'd like to chime in without really taking any sides, more to explain the ins and outs of the different approaches.
Peter I don't think there is right or wrong here. It is more a question of what the majority of users wish, ask and pay for
Going with the car analogy which for understandable reasons ($$$) is very popular in these discussion, let look at someone who likes the engine and gearbox in his/ her current car for it's performance but wishes that the handling and/ or practically/ comfort of the actual car leave allot to be desired.
In today's car industry, many companies work together and share quite allot of components and many technologies are based on certain standards. Still in reality you cannot simply take the engine out of your Mazda 6 and fit it into your Ford S-Max (one being a saloon and the other being an MPV serving different purposes). Not saying this is not possible but it is not practical even though they probably share 50% of their chassis and mechanical/ electronic components.
Back to our industry. The reality is that Hasselblad sell maybe 20 or 30 H3D kits for every CF back that they sell - this maybe the reason why 50MP and 60MP are not mentioned (yet) in relation to the CF line.
The same may apply to Sinar with the adoption of Leaf's 56MP solution.
The vast majority of Phase and Leaf users (who together own the largest combine install base), have bought a back to fit on not more than 3 cameras. Typically these would be a "small" SLR e.g. AFD, H1, AFi or 500 series, a "large" SLR e.g. RZ, RB, 680 and a technical camera ALPA, P2, Arca-Swiss etc.
For these people we have 95% of all these configurations covered.
To fit a Leaf back in AFD mount on an RZ is cheaper and much quicker/ more practical than to change an interface using Allen keys.
The old Leaf DCBII, Volare and Cantare lines used an interchangeable interface system which was great at the time and worked quite well for the small chips. But as sensor grow in size the tolerances for maintaining focus across the frame become tighter. Also in the last 1-2 years there were allot more people buying a complete solution (back and body e.g. H3D or AFi) than just a back for the old RZ. They may still want to use the back on the RZ and nothing (in Leaf's case at least) stops them from doing so.
There aren't too many people who have bought a digital back and that use it regularly on an H1 AND on a Contax. For the very few that do require this option, the two backs that offer it probably cover the needs.
We develop our backs in 5 different mounts and each of these can be used on at least 1 small SLR, 1 large SLR and nearly every technical camera, all via simple adapters that require no screw+key work. This approach over the years has proved to be successful and I am assuming that the same takes for Phase and recently for Hasselblad with the H line.
There are a vew that buy a back for Contax and later on decide that the H system is better for their needs. These people can pay to have their back swapped for a charge. The turn around is a few days and is handled by the dealers so in most cases there is no real downtime at all.
Yair
Peter I don't think there is right or wrong here. It is more a question of what the majority of users wish, ask and pay for
Going with the car analogy which for understandable reasons ($$$) is very popular in these discussion, let look at someone who likes the engine and gearbox in his/ her current car for it's performance but wishes that the handling and/ or practically/ comfort of the actual car leave allot to be desired.
In today's car industry, many companies work together and share quite allot of components and many technologies are based on certain standards. Still in reality you cannot simply take the engine out of your Mazda 6 and fit it into your Ford S-Max (one being a saloon and the other being an MPV serving different purposes). Not saying this is not possible but it is not practical even though they probably share 50% of their chassis and mechanical/ electronic components.
Back to our industry. The reality is that Hasselblad sell maybe 20 or 30 H3D kits for every CF back that they sell - this maybe the reason why 50MP and 60MP are not mentioned (yet) in relation to the CF line.
The same may apply to Sinar with the adoption of Leaf's 56MP solution.
The vast majority of Phase and Leaf users (who together own the largest combine install base), have bought a back to fit on not more than 3 cameras. Typically these would be a "small" SLR e.g. AFD, H1, AFi or 500 series, a "large" SLR e.g. RZ, RB, 680 and a technical camera ALPA, P2, Arca-Swiss etc.
For these people we have 95% of all these configurations covered.
To fit a Leaf back in AFD mount on an RZ is cheaper and much quicker/ more practical than to change an interface using Allen keys.
The old Leaf DCBII, Volare and Cantare lines used an interchangeable interface system which was great at the time and worked quite well for the small chips. But as sensor grow in size the tolerances for maintaining focus across the frame become tighter. Also in the last 1-2 years there were allot more people buying a complete solution (back and body e.g. H3D or AFi) than just a back for the old RZ. They may still want to use the back on the RZ and nothing (in Leaf's case at least) stops them from doing so.
There aren't too many people who have bought a digital back and that use it regularly on an H1 AND on a Contax. For the very few that do require this option, the two backs that offer it probably cover the needs.
We develop our backs in 5 different mounts and each of these can be used on at least 1 small SLR, 1 large SLR and nearly every technical camera, all via simple adapters that require no screw+key work. This approach over the years has proved to be successful and I am assuming that the same takes for Phase and recently for Hasselblad with the H line.
There are a vew that buy a back for Contax and later on decide that the H system is better for their needs. These people can pay to have their back swapped for a charge. The turn around is a few days and is handled by the dealers so in most cases there is no real downtime at all.
Yair
PeterA
Well-known member
Hi there Yair and thank you for your thoughtful repsonse from a manufacturer's point of view.
I understand the automotive analogy - but dont think it is particularly pertinent analogy for the MFD back and camera and lens market. Nevertheless your points about what people ask and pay for is exactly on the money - by definition.
Also I acknowledge that as a hobbyst my primary motivation regarding equipment is the fun of the equipment and as I have said I dont particularly see much difference between the various backs in terms of IQ - but I can 'see' a differerence in drawing between different lenses and different formulations and I also see a big difference between the way various formats works.
So yes my preferences are certianly not common preferences - any more.
PS - I am looking at one of your flat bed scanners ( wet and dry mounting etc ) - excellent technology btw and will make using film in various formats a pleasure.
Pete
I understand the automotive analogy - but dont think it is particularly pertinent analogy for the MFD back and camera and lens market. Nevertheless your points about what people ask and pay for is exactly on the money - by definition.
Also I acknowledge that as a hobbyst my primary motivation regarding equipment is the fun of the equipment and as I have said I dont particularly see much difference between the various backs in terms of IQ - but I can 'see' a differerence in drawing between different lenses and different formulations and I also see a big difference between the way various formats works.
So yes my preferences are certianly not common preferences - any more.
PS - I am looking at one of your flat bed scanners ( wet and dry mounting etc ) - excellent technology btw and will make using film in various formats a pleasure.
Pete
woodyspedden
New member
David
This is one incredible response to so many otherwise negative commentaries. Not that there is anyone who is beyond how strongly they feel, but I promise you that three months ago, when the economy was good, no one would have been this railed about this subject
I can totally imagine the difficulties associated with your business model. I can only hope that in these ensuing times that things have sorted out, at least a bit.
I think that, prior to all the stuff in the market prior to this that there was little to complain about re Capture Integration v s anyone else. In fact I wish that i had bought into the Phase system compared to the hassy H3Dii and in particular with CI. My mistake.........not yours.
Just a note that you guys are doing your deal. Now it is time for us to do ours as well
God Bless
Woody