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Noise of 6,0µm Kodak CCD (H3DII-50 & S2)

tashley

Subscriber Member
That is exactly the issue Tim and something we have failed to figure out as well.

I don't see how they can do an 'honest' test.

David
My issue is that the D£x seems according to DXO to have higher DR than any of the MF backs they have tested. Given that it also has far better higher ISO performance and given that I generally crop the MF frame to a 2:3 aspect ratio, thereby creating at best a 35 MP file, I find myself wondering at what point does the Nikon become more attractive given the many disadvantages of shooting MF... such as the fact that neither the Hassy nor Mamiya/Phase 28D lenses have corners that are sharp enough for me so bang go another few pixels to the crop under many circumstances. It's not rare for me to end up with a file not much larger than that of the Nikon and with a similar pixel pitch...
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
My issue is that the D£x seems according to DXO to have higher DR than any of the MF backs they have tested. Given that it also has far better higher ISO performance and given that I generally crop the MF frame to a 2:3 aspect ratio, thereby creating at best a 35 MP file, I find myself wondering at what point does the Nikon become more attractive given the many disadvantages of shooting MF... such as the fact that neither the Hassy nor Mamiya/Phase 28D lenses have corners that are sharp enough for me so bang go another few pixels to the crop under many circumstances. It's not rare for me to end up with a file not much larger than that of the Nikon and with a similar pixel pitch...
Tim,

The S2 will be a 2:3 ratio and every lens will be sharp into the corners, even wide open.

David
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Actually,
One of the reasons that I tossed my D3 was that I was getting better results from MF lenses in the corners on a P45+ than the nikon stuff as well as just better looking files.
-bob
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Let's dispel the theory the Mamiya 28 or most likely the Hassy 28mm is soft in the corners. I shoot the Mamiya 28mm a lot and yes it is soft in the corners when you are very close to a subject and mostly it is the curvature of the lens and nothing more. These are ALL shot with a 28mm lens and every corner is extremely good. Let's also say there are ONLY 2 28mm around the Hassy and the mamiya and ANY solution outside of these two you can get out your ski mask and need to go rob a bank. Any other solution starts at 6k or more( Rodenstock 28mm is 6k alone) and up to 16k. Worst case use it as a 30mm lens when you are close to a subject but as you can see in these the minimum distance is STILL 5ft and there sharp.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Two more. Worst case solution is focus stack. These are NOT focused stacked. Now let me add i could have not shot this job without it and/ or a lot of extra work. I would rather have it than not and my client was thrilled at these. Just need to think when you shoot these on what you want out on those extreme corners. I also have a good copy.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
The new Hasselblad H3DII-50 uses the first entirely new Kodak full-frame-CCD-architecture since 4 years, has anybody compared noise & DR with it's predecessors (6,8µm -> H3DII-39)?

It would be quite interesting to see how much has changed, especially since the Leica S2 will use the same sensor-architecture?

What about Dalsa's new 6,0µm-CCDs (P65+ for example) - nobody compared yet?

Thanks!
Sorry for my ignorance, but are the current 60MP backs not based on 5µm technology? Or is this just the next step to come?
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Tim,

The S2 will be a 2:3 ratio and every lens will be sharp into the corners, even wide open.

David
Hi David,
I've read all the blurb about the S2 but until it starts shipping and tests show how it's higher ISO performance stands up, I'll be sidelining. Also, as an early adopter of the M8 (a camera I still use more than any other) I learned not to jump too early into Leica products... I'd rather have 'second mover' advantage.

But if the camera is all it's trumped to be, it still leaves the a massive price difference between it and the D£X for not a huge increase in resolution...
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Let's dispel the theory the Mamiya 28 or most likely the Hassy 28mm is soft in the corners. I shoot the Mamiya 28mm a lot and yes it is soft in the corners when you are very close to a subject and mostly it is the curvature of the lens and nothing more. These are ALL shot with a 28mm lens and every corner is extremely good. Let's also say there are ONLY 2 28mm around the Hassy and the mamiya and ANY solution outside of these two you can get out your ski mask and need to go rob a bank. Any other solution starts at 6k or more( Rodenstock 28mm is 6k alone) and up to 16k. Worst case use it as a 30mm lens when you are close to a subject but as you can see in these the minimum distance is STILL 5ft and there sharp.
Guy, I love you like a Bro, you know that, but I am on my third 28D and though it is very good compared to the first two, it does have soft corners at anything below F16 - and the best on-centre results are between F8 and F11.

To be more precise, part of the problem is softness and part of it is DOF: in other words, even on a man-height tripod, the immediate foreground is too close for great resolution unless you stop down to F16. However if you shoot off the edge of a cliff or escarpment, so that the immediate bottom of frame subject is further away, things improve radically.

Your files look great but they are 800 pixel web shots and even you yourself have posted the famous 'Mancuso Method' for tricking C1 into sharpening the corners of 28D files! Also, the work you do is much more suited to focus stacking than is mine.

This all brings up the question of what is the sensor-size 'sweet spot' for each individual. For me, for example, if you could get infinite resolution onto chips of any size, I'd probably go for something like the M8 sensor size: you can get good wides to (35mm equiv) about 20mm FOV, go as long as you like and have a good choice of 'everything is in focus' glass and 'selective DOF with gorgeous bokeh' glass...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The best scenario is treat the 28mm like a 30mm so back up a little or use a 1.3 crop sensor. And yes my trick does work and I am still waiting for Phase to put that in the software. Even though these are 900 pixel web images they are very good at 100 percent. Still the end of the day it is the least outlay of money for a very wide MF solution. That does count for something. LOL

Also there is NOT a 35mm solution out there either that does great wides , been down that road too. It was and is a major issue with Canon and maybe Nikon has a edge over the Canons now but back in my day with those bodies , it sucked without going to alternative glass. The best solution is the tech camera's but there pulling out your wallet and stomping on it pretty darn hard.
 
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