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Where's MFD headed ?

f8orbust

Active member
It could be headed back to where it historically started ...
Almost fell off my soap box when I read this - a well reasoned and articulate post germane to the original question, and without any reference to 'focus stacking' or sarcastic asides.

Perhaps there is still life in the GetDPI MF forum yet.
 

jerome_m

Member
I have a photographer friend that has a large modern studio with 9 Hasselblad stations running constantly; including 2 with full movement view cameras and one station with a big old Fuji with movements.
I'll second that opinion. I also know a few professional photographers doing exactly that kind of work and can confirm:
-that they are not active on forums
-that they use MF for the tethering abilities and, sometimes, movements
-that they use rather old backs, they don't need a very high resolution
-that the money goes into workstations and lights.
 

Ken_R

New member
My guess is it’s headed squarely in the direction of SLR style cameras (XF, H6D etc.)

I don’t see any sensor manufacturer making a >=100MP CMOS sensor that will be shift friendly, nor do I see R/S coming out with a range of ultra-expensive, strongly retrofocus W/A lenses to work with current and future >=100MP+ CMOS sensors.

I could be wrong - usually am - but your thoughts are welcome (not on whether I'm usually wrong or not, but on where MFD is headed ;)).

Jim

P.S. This topic could be useful for anyone tempted to dip their toe in the world of MFD, particularly using a tech cam, so please don't hijack it and turn it into a 'everyone-will-be-shooting-35mm-within-5-years' sort of thing - let's be optimistic and assume MFD will be with us for many years to come.
The current MFD product offerings are pretty stellar now that both Hasselblad and PhaseOne have outstanding camera bodies along with superb lens lines. Leica is lacking a bit in the sensor department but their body and lenses are also superb.

My guess is that the next step would be a MFD mirrorless body similar to a Leica SL. The technology is already in place to build such a camera today since the 50 and 100mp Sony CMOS MF sensors output high quality video good enough for an awesome EVF. New, smaller lenses can be designed and an adapter would make the current SLR lenses entirely compatible.

A smaller and lighter MFD system would certainly help expand the MFD customer base no question.
 

MrSmith

Member
"now that both Hasselblad and PhaseOne have outstanding camera bodies”

until they have on chip phase detect sensors all over the frame in the hundreds with face and eye recognition plus 5 way sensor shift/stabilisation they are merely average especially when you consider the price without sensor for a dumb box.
the phamiya 645 body only was £4000

they are getting there but the journey has been glacial, how long did it take to get a decent screen on a £20k back?

i appreciate this is back/sensor tech but it would replace the single point AF that comes with the bodies
 
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Pradeep

Member
I believe traditional MF will still be a somewhat restricted tool in the hands of pros that work mainly in studios with controlled lighting (and has been rightly pointed out, do not visit forums like this).

However, there is a lot of interest and enthusiasm among non or semi-pros who love the format but would prefer it to be less expensive and easier to use. I expect Pentax to continue with newer, higher resolution units to match up with a new line of lenses. Would not be surprised if they too come up with their version of the same product as Phase or Hassy within the year.

These are exciting times for photographers, of any ilk, I might add.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I believe traditional MF will still be a somewhat restricted tool in the hands of pros that work mainly in studios with controlled lighting (and has been rightly pointed out, do not visit forums like this).

However, there is a lot of interest and enthusiasm among non or semi-pros who love the format but would prefer it to be less expensive and easier to use. I expect Pentax to continue with newer, higher resolution units to match up with a new line of lenses. Would not be surprised if they too come up with their version of the same product as Phase or Hassy within the year.

These are exciting times for photographers, of any ilk, I might add.
Not sure I agree with that part of your opinion.

I think MFD makers have added considerable functionality to the later models of these big guns. Personally, I did, and still do, a fair amount of available light work with MFD cameras. They may be prime in the studio, but for a good deal of other applications they perform quite well and deliver versatility beyond just with strobes. It may be that studio work, including tethered, in tandem with lighting is the "must have", but the cameras certainly can be used for other work which extends the value proposition.

For example, the "cowboy" shot I posted previously was shot with a Hasselblad H3D-II/31 and a HC 150/3.2 with a 1.7 extender. I used the same camera with a 120/4 macro to shoot close-up details of the product (the slicker he's wearing). We even did some action shots, (including the attached Image below). These images appeared in a Trade Show booth ... a couple of them 8' wide.

- Marc

Muddy-Creek-Slickers-4.jpg
 

jerome_m

Member
My guess is that the next step would be a MFD mirrorless body similar to a Leica SL.
Not for me. I went MF to avoid using an EVF and I like the bright, clear ground glass of my MF camera.

i appreciate this is back/sensor tech but it would replace the single point AF that comes with the bodies
I find focus and recompose quite suited to my way of taking picture and like the true focus function of my camera very much.


(This just to say that not everyone agrees on the features above. But if you prefer an EVF and multi-point AF, that is fine with me... as long as I am not obliged to use it.)
 

Pradeep

Member
Not sure I agree with that part of your opinion.

I think MFD makers have added considerable functionality to the later models of these big guns. Personally, I did, and still do, a fair amount of available light work with MFD cameras. They may be prime in the studio, but for a good deal of other applications they perform quite well and deliver versatility beyond just with strobes. It may be that studio work, including tethered, in tandem with lighting is the "must have", but the cameras certainly can be used for other work which extends the value proposition.

For example, the "cowboy" shot I posted previously was shot with a Hasselblad H3D-II/31 and a HC 150/3.2 with a 1.7 extender. I used the same camera with a 120/4 macro to shoot close-up details of the product (the slicker he's wearing). We even did some action shots, (including the attached Image below). These images appeared in a Trade Show booth ... a couple of them 8' wide.

- Marc

Marc, the images are beautiful no doubt but they are well planned and staged, not the way things work in real life.

And yet you are correct, MFD can be used in a variety of situations, I myself have posted wildlife images here that I took in Africa with my Pentax 645Z. It would have been impossible for me to shoot the same with the older IQ180 system I had earlier, but with the Pentax it was possible. Most people would not think of an MFD in the same breath as wildlife. However under certain circumstances you can shoot anything you like with MFD, but there are compromises involved and this is not a thread about the limitations or advantages of the format. Clearly the current crop of MFD systems do allow a lot more versatility.

I still think it is very much a niche product and as long as the costs remain high it will remain so. What I would like is for Pentax to develop a better series of lenses and perhaps incorporate a FF MFD sensor into its next camera. If they can price it close to the Z, it would be a big seller.

Meanwhile, reposting a shot I like quite a bit.Taken with no more than an instant's notice, long after the sun had gone down. I was the only one in the vehicle who had a camera handy for this one. Taken with my Pentax 645Z and the 150 2.8 legacy lens.

Londolozi_20150604_P6Z4570.jpg
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc, the images are beautiful no doubt but they are well planned and staged, not the way things work in real life.

And yet you are correct, MFD can be used in a variety of situations, I myself have posted wildlife images here that I took in Africa with my Pentax 645Z. It would have been impossible for me to shoot the same with the older IQ180 system I had earlier, but with the Pentax it was possible. Most people would not think of an MFD in the same breath as wildlife. However under certain circumstances you can shoot anything you like with MFD, but there are compromises involved and this is not a thread about the limitations or advantages of the format. Clearly the current crop of MFD systems do allow a lot more versatility.

I still think it is very much a niche product and as long as the costs remain high it will remain so. What I would like is for Pentax to develop a better series of lenses and perhaps incorporate a FF MFD sensor into its next camera. If they can price it close to the Z, it would be a big seller.

Meanwhile, reposting a shot I like quite a bit.Taken with no more than an instant's notice, long after the sun had gone down. I was the only one in the vehicle who had a camera handy for this one. Taken with my Pentax 645Z and the 150 2.8 legacy lens.
Actually, the "Cowboy" shoot was exactly "How Things Work In Real Life".

The entire session had the explicit purpose of demonstrating the Muddy Creek Company's product in real world conditions ... a riding slicker aka "duster" designed to cover the rider's saddle and clothes when in adverse conditions such as rivers, rain, and dusty trails. The rider in my previous examples is the company's owner and an expert rider and genuine cowboy. The dog is his Aussy Cattle dog who accompanies he and his wife on rides ... there is a subculture of serious riders who make very long distance group rides that face the conditions the product helps protect from.

While the shoot itself was deliberate and with purpose, it didn't preclude "spontaneous works" of which made up roughly half the images chosen by the client.

For example, with planned intent, we specifically shot images of a group of riders splashing across a river, but after completing those purposeful images, I also spontaneously shot the "Coming Home" image below ... which, while demonstrative, is also atmospheric and resonated with riders emotionally ... totally unplanned and of the immediate moment when I saw how the lighting was playing on the subjects and horses breath.

The other shot is the wife of the cowboy and co-owner of Muddy Creek. No nonsense, salt of the earth folks with a product idea to sell to other passionate riders like themselves.

BTW, I'm not sure how a Photo Safari in Africa is how things work in real life either ... at least not for many of us:ROTFL: Nice shot none the less.

In the end the subject is how these MFD cameras have continuously improved to expand capabilities ... often more than they are given credit for. So, where they are headed is really up to the user with an open mind as to the possibilities. Costs are directly relative to purpose and longevity in delivering results ... not constantly upgrading every time some new thing comes along (unless it solves a "realistic" task oriented objective one's current gear cannot do). Personally, I see folks buying into extreme capabilities for rarely encountered applications that may make things easier but really don't add much relative to the cost.

- Marc

muddy-creek-coming-home.jpg


Muddy-Creek-Bridge.jpg
 
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jerome_m

Member
In the end the subject is how these MFD cameras have continuously improved to expand capabilities ... often more than they are given credit for. So, where they are headed is really up to the user with an open mind as to the possibilities. Costs are directly relative to purpose and longevity in delivering results ... not constantly upgrading every time some new thing comes along (unless it solves a "realistic" task oriented objective one's current gear cannot do). Personally, I see folks buying into extreme capabilities for rarely encountered applications that may make things easier but really don't add much relative to the cost.
I think that every owner of a MF camera has had the experience of having to use them outside their dedicated studio applications and found out that they are quite usable in these circumstances, even if not really optimal. That is not really the question here.

The question is "where are MFD manufacturers headed?". That is a lot more tricky to answer:
-traditional professional studio shooters have little need to upgrade: the MFDs they have is sufficient to their needs, I don't expect much growth in these markets
-rich amateurs who buy tech cams may be a smaller market in the coming year, because of the slow economy. Many are also getting older and may want a lighter camera system.
-the museum, reproduction and aerial market may still be growing (or not, I don't really know), but will be saturated eventually.

Manufacturers need to sell so many cameras every year, year after year or they go bankrupt. If their traditional markets stagnate or even shrink, they will need to attract new customers. These new customers will want different cameras or a different price point, or they would already have bough a MFD.

Very nice pictures, these shots for Muddy Creek, BTW.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Only makes sense as they own/manufacture both the only 50MP and 100MP CMOS chips currently for MFD. Sony understands mirrorless/EVF etc. but not so sure on the "lenses" as they still have a large number of holes in the A7 camera lineup at least to me. Not a big fan of using Canon/Nikon on Sony, just me.

But the price point I agree may be very eye opening. Also don't forget there are a lot of rumblings over on the Fuji side also!

It's not a matter of "if" just "when"

Paul C
 

jlm

Workshop Member
there is that little mirror lock-up button on the Vblads...
or you could have used the rollei TLR, he,he.

nikons are pretty slappy as well
 

torger

Active member
Sony is a type of company that can make a "one off" camera, just to see if the market likes it, so I wouldn't be super-surprised if they came out with a medium format camera, even with a fixed lens RX1 style. I would be mildly surprised though, I don't think it will happen.

When it comes the tech cams I think the trend is that the SLR systems Hassy/Phase will replace them, as the tech cams becomes gradually harder to work with and provides less choice, due to manufacturers pulling out (Copal/Schneider) and lens/sensor compatibility issues. I doubt we will see a new tech cam lens line from Rodenstock, my guess is that the current Digarons is the last we'll see of digital tech cam lenses.

The tech cam segment had a chance to get big in the enthusiast landscape market, but seems largely to be stuck in the pro segment and in the harsh environment of business reality I think MF SLRs will take over in the coming 5-10 year period. With the right marketing and better hardware tech cams could have a status like Leica M, they could be marketed as a classic large format photography experience without having to mess with film. Now it seems like the niche is just becoming smaller. For table-top photography there seems to be some success with the 135 mirrorless on view cameras though, and with adapters using Canon's TS-E lenses some use it for wide angle shots too. Maybe that's where the bulk of the future tech cam sales will be.

When it comes to the main SLR lines I think the future is quite bright. There will be those that make rational decisions and see that the high end Nikon and Canons provide enough image quality to the customers, but I think those that want "the best" will continue to be enough to feed the market, so my concern is really only about my "own" segment, the tech cams, which is not going in the direction I'd like it to do.
 

JohnBrew

Active member
Manufacturers using the Sony sensors may have a backlog building up due to the earthquake in Japan which I understand severely damaged Sony's chip making factories.

However, I am still pursuing MF and Hasselblad informed me yesterday I will have an H5D-50c with 50 & 100mm lenses for test in one week. I'll do the usual comparison shots and then compare prints. Fun :).
 

Jeffrey

Active member
Seeing a trend of the manufacturers towards giving us more features we don't use, will the pendulum swing in the back to basics direction with features that are just that much better? One feature might be a focus point that can be moved instead of being locked on center. Another feature for tech cameras might be a DOF feature that measures lens tilt/shift automatically and sets the lens in an almost point and shoot mode. I don't know. At the end of the day I want to have fun shooting and creating good images. I'm not much interested in all of the technical aspects of cameras.
 
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