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Thread: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

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    What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    A digital x-pan.

    You won't be seeing an x-pan on the 22nd. In the future who knows, but I think it extremely unlikely.

    Why? When the x-pan first came out you didn't have the stitching options that we have now so it was pretty unique (a baby 6X17). Now you can easily stitch if you want, or indeed crop into a high resolution chip if that's what you need. Also it's not as if anyone if making chips in this format, it's just too niche a market.

    A re-badged something else.

    No no and no. This is a totally new thing.

    People have pointed out that Mr Oosting has a background in luxury products (Vertu) but that has no bearing on this thing.

    And I agree that the Lunar/Stellar this was very badly done, this is nothing at all like that.

    I'll say it again, I really do think the thing is a game changer. I thought so the minute I handled it.

    Bring on the 22nd!
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    If it's a viable Mamiya 7 replacement and reasonably priced in NZD then I'll almost certainly get one. Well, as soon as I've paid off my Credo...
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Yes or no?

    New lens mount.

    Large sensored compact with a fixed lens.

    Monochrome only.
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    I could definitely go for a digital Mamiya 7 like camera.
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Thanks Nick. I look forward to learning what Hasselblad announces on the 22nd and to hear more from you re the new camera, when you are free to tell us about your experience with it.

    Regardless of his background, I think that Perry Oosting is taking the company in the right direction again.

    Gary Benson
    Last edited by bensonga; 19th June 2016 at 23:19.
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    you have me excited Nick!
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    [B] ... I'll say it again, I really do think the thing is a game changer. I thought so the minute I handled it.

    Bring on the 22nd!
    Forgive my ignorance, but I am intrigued by the circumstances by which you got your hands on the new camera? You may be able to write of the setting, the drama, the emotions of being on the inside of this development. For sure it would be a grand story to share ...

    :-) ... MomentsForZen (Richard)

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    No amount of pre-launch hype will make up for a bad product, Hasselblad learned that the hard way. On the other hand, if it's good, I believe no amount of skepticism will kill it.

    The market has been reasonably fair. Quirky is ok and some people will like that. But not enough R&D will kill new cameras quick. We are spoiled nowadays and don't want an expensive camera with just one outstanding feature anymore.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by JeRuFo View Post
    No amount of pre-launch hype will make up for a bad product, Hasselblad learned that the hard way. On the other hand, if it's good, I believe no amount of skepticism will kill it.
    It's good.

    I stake my reputation on it.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Nice thumb wheel pic on Instagram, whatever form the camera takes it appears to have the blend of design/materials/tactile feel that presses a lot of want buttons however it performs. A bit like the first time you pick up a MacBook Air or a Leica.

    Quite a well managed tease campaign, nobody has leaked the full specs with or without approval.
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Nick,

    You won't be seeing an x-pan on the 22nd. In the future who knows, but I think it extremely unlikely.

    Why?... it's not as if anyone if making chips in this format, it's just too niche a market.
    That could be viewed as an opportunity to corner the market.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Nick,

    A 617 aspect sensor could be 18% wider than the 43mm x 33mm sensor in the X1D and still remain within the lens image circle because it's reduced height would enable it to 'reach' farther in width.

    Cropping a 617 panorama from the X1D, 51.3MP sensor will return a 24.3MP image, whereas a 617 aspect sensor would return 33.6MP, which represents an increase in resolution of 39%

    With this in mind I am sure you will agree that the business case for manufacture by Hasselblad of a 617 aspect sensor is incontrovertible, and that it is a moral imperative that you raise this with Hasselblad CEO Perry Oosting as a matter of urgency.
    Rob
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by AreBee View Post
    Nick,

    A 617 aspect sensor could be 18% wider than the 43mm x 33mm sensor in the X1D and still remain within the lens image circle because it's reduced height would enable it to 'reach' farther in width.

    Cropping a 617 panorama from the X1D, 51.3MP sensor will return a 24.3MP image, whereas a 617 aspect sensor would return 33.6MP, which represents an increase in resolution of 39%

    With this in mind I am sure you will agree that the business case for manufacture by Hasselblad of a 617 aspect sensor is incontrovertible, and that it is a moral imperative that you raise this with Hasselblad CEO Perry Oosting as a matter of urgency.
    I personally think many would argue the logic of a limited interest sensor size for minimal printing resolution gains (although I'd like to see a panoramic sensor or "multi format" sensor like the Panasonic GH2 had at some point).
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I personally think many would argue the logic of a limited interest sensor size for minimal printing resolution gains (although I'd like to see a panoramic sensor or "multi format" sensor like the Panasonic GH2 had at some point).
    Interesting....I had never heard of a multi-aspect sensor, let alone that the Panasonic GH2 had one. I think I still have my GH2 stashed away in a closet somewhere. I'll have to read up on this now. Thanks for the observation!

    Gary

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Interesting....I had never heard of a multi-aspect sensor, let alone that the Panasonic GH2 had one. I think I still have my GH2 stashed away in a closet somewhere. I'll have to read up on this now. Thanks for the observation!

    Gary
    The GH sensors used oversized sensors to be able to output images at the same resolution no matter the aspect ratio chosen.
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    HiredArm,

    I personally think many would argue the logic of a limited interest sensor size for minimal printing resolution gains...
    No doubt. However:

    1. Hasselblad was first to announce "the world’s first 50MP medium format CMOS sensor camera" (even if Phase One actually shipped units first). Likewise, Hasselblad is first to announce the world's first mirrorless MFD camera. It would be one more feather in its cap to announce the world's first panoramic sensor camera;

    2. Release a digital panoramic camera (not a scanning back like the Seitz 617) and you would corner the market, regardless of size;

    3. Display stunning panoramic prints at product release and whet the appetite/raise awareness of the format to others;

    4. Make a statement camera just because you can, and in so doing increase brand equity -- it's not always about money...well, not directly.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Nice Dream, but unless a sensor maker like Sony steps up, it's all just that.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    In truth,

    If you cannot take a panorama with multiple exposures that does not smoke a 617 ...

    Take up golf.

    Sensors are so good ... exposure is almost a guarantee ... and software these days is amazing.


    My take is no manufacturer will underwrite the expense and risk when the solution has been addressed.

    And yes ... all of us want to return to our youth and the cameras that men took into the wilderness.

    Reality check ... if they make it 99% of folks will go the cheap route.

    JMHO

    Need to check the grill....


    Bob
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    In truth,

    If you cannot take a panorama with multiple exposures that does not smoke a 617 ...

    Take up golf.


    Bob

    Bob, You make it sound golf is easy?

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Bob, You make it sound golf is easy?
    No idea ... Chasing a small ball around a beautiful park full of sand and rough never appealed to me.

    But honestly to do photography is not easy if you approach it as most of us do here.

    My thought was that if you cannot stretch to do a panorama ... you should really challenge yourself.

    Way above my skill level ... I will stick to the cello.

    Bob

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    The GH sensors used oversized sensors to be able to output images at the same resolution no matter the aspect ratio chosen.
    I could be mistaken, but from what I read, it seems that the GH2 was the last one with an over sized sensor allowing for this feature.

    Gary

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Actually, the BEST use of the X-Pan is not landscape. That belongs to 617 and stitch panoramic. The best use of XPan is documentary. On the hands of masters, you get the immersive experience that is not possible otherwise.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    richardman,

    Nice Dream, but unless a sensor maker like Sony steps up, it's all just that.
    Tell that to Leica, which has sensors fabricated to its specification.



    Bob,

    If you cannot take a panorama with multiple exposures that does not smoke a 617 ...
    Tell that to NASA:

    Previously, the best images of Jupiter were taken by NASA's two Voyager spacecraft, which flew past the planet in 1979. JunoCam's field of view is much wider than that of Voyager's narrow-angle camera. This means every JunoCam image is a kind of panorama, and its highest-resolution images will show wide swath[e]s of clouds.

    ... all of us want to return to our youth and the cameras that men took into the wilderness.
    Only those unable to overcome nostalgia.

    Reality check ... if they make it 99% of folks will go the cheap route.
    Tell that to Hasselblad, Phase One etc.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    I see you like to tell people to tell other companies what to do

    I do in fact have one of the earliest M9, so I know a little about Leica. I also know a bit about sensor business and all, but whatever. Let's all have pleasant dreams.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by richardman View Post
    I see you like to tell people to tell other companies what to do.
    That would be one interpretation.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    In truth,

    If you cannot take a panorama with multiple exposures that does not smoke a 617 ...


    Bob
    I am going to suggest your statement is inaccurate, Bob.

    There are times when one shot and done is needed,,,,moving clouds.......moving water........moving people, cars....moving trees.......smoke. I think you get the point.

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlinkingEye View Post
    I am going to suggest your statement is inaccurate, Bob.

    There are times when one shot and done is needed,,,,moving clouds.......moving water........moving people, cars....moving trees.......smoke. I think you get the point.
    Of course I do ... I have done maybe two panoramas in my life ...

    But I do not hold out any hope that a manufacturer will produce any wide format chip ... that ship sailed a long time ago.

    Regards,

    Bob
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by richardman View Post
    Actually, the BEST use of the X-Pan is not landscape. That belongs to 617 and stitch panoramic. The best use of XPan is documentary. On the hands of masters, you get the immersive experience that is not possible otherwise.
    Untitled by Peetey, on Flickr

    http://ESt by Peetey, on Flickr

    Untitled by Peetey, on Flickr

    .. by Peetey, on Flickr

    you get a flat field of view - very different to using a wide and the panorama format allows for different' cropping capabilities .
    It is difficult to replicate the XPan look with a cropped lens from other formats panoramic perspective when used up close to subject matter doesn't have the cropped tele look that merely cropping delivers- because you don't have the tele-photo perspective.
    The further 'away' one gets from the subject matter- the less these differences come into play - so a cropped panorama using a high resolution digital back works for landscapes - however as you say you cant replicate the XPan's strengths up close and personal with normal cropping very easily. The reason why I still keep a full XPan11 system in my kit - a pity I am too lazy to develop film much these days - because the XPan has always been by far my favourite camera system.

    we wont get a digital XPan - but some clever company might actually incorporate an in camera XPan cropping mode with EVF framing to help - and then we wont have the magnificent XPan lenses from Fuji - which is another story.
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Untitled by Peetey, on Flickr

    http://ESt by Peetey, on Flickr

    Untitled by Peetey, on Flickr

    .. by Peetey, on Flickr

    you get a flat field of view - very different to using a wide and the panorama format allows for different' cropping capabilities .
    It is difficult to replicate the XPan look with a cropped lens from other formats panoramic perspective when used up close to subject matter doesn't have the cropped tele look that merely cropping delivers- because you don't have the tele-photo perspective.
    The further 'away' one gets from the subject matter- the less these differences come into play - so a cropped panorama using a high resolution digital back works for landscapes - however as you say you cant replicate the XPan's strengths up close and personal with normal cropping very easily. The reason why I still keep a full XPan11 system in my kit - a pity I am too lazy to develop film much these days - because the XPan has always been by far my favourite camera system.

    we wont get a digital XPan - but some clever company might actually incorporate an in camera XPan cropping mode with EVF framing to help - and then we wont have the magnificent XPan lenses from Fuji - which is another story.
    Hasselblad is incorporating a 44mm x 16mm "XPan crop mode" into the X1D.
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    PeterA, those photos illustrate my point perfectly. The most amazing XPan docu photos I have seen are from Ben Rusnak when he was doing work for a charity organization in Haiti. It takes your breath away.

    http://www.benjaminrusnak.com/1246520-23
    http://richardmanphoto.com http://facebook.com/richardmanphoto http://instagram.com/richardmanphoto
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by richardman View Post
    The most amazing XPan docu photos I have seen are from Ben Rusnak when he was doing work for a charity organization in Haiti. It takes your breath away.

    http://www.benjaminrusnak.com/1246520-23
    Incredible images!!! Thanks for link.
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    You folks are encouraging me to take out the xpan II outfit this weekend. Looking forward to seeing the X1D tomorrow in person and it's crop modes too.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Thank-you PeterA and richardman for the example photographs and link for more photographs taken with an Xpan camera. This is the first time that I have seen photographs from this camera - so flat and wide (as was expressed by PeterA) - not at all like a wide angle lens. And very even lighting.

    :-) ... MomentsForZen (Richard)

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    I like panos very much since i started to do so when i bought TS Canon lenses, then i was thinking to buy 617 film camera either dedicated or a film back to 4x5 camera, but i forgot that i bought an adapter kit to use panoramic shots on my Mamiya 7II that doesn't work at all, i checked out the specifications of this pano kit size and it shows that it has exactly same size of X-Pan, so i don't need to buy XPan though, but i have to fix my Mamiya first.

    I also have RRS panoramic kit that i used before in US with my Hasselblad but didn't work with photos to see the results, but nowadays i am happy to use TS lenses on my A7r, and one day when i can upgrade to better bodies then i will shoot more.

    Here is a pano i did first times from TS lens

    Tareq
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Gentlemen,

    Forgive my ignorance. In what way can an XPan be different from a cropped WA lens? I thought it WAS a cropped WA lens, and the sense of less distortion comes from the cropping of the corners where most of the WA distortion is evident.

    Is it actually a more cylindrical projection without the use of a curved film plane? What distortions are induced in the lens so that it can deviate from a planar projection? How would the lens perform on 645 film?

    Confused,

    Matt
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson

    Is it actually a more cylindrical projection without the use of a curved film plane? What distortions are induced in the lens so that it can deviate from a planar projection? How would the lens perform on 645 film?

    Confused,

    Matt
    Matt, Good questions! AFAIK, these lenses have not been used on a large sensor to determine that and with the lack of a focal plane shutter in the upcoming XT1, it is not practical.

    Perhaps the Fuji cam will come with an FPS and the old X-Pan or TX1 lenses will then be usable on it.
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by richardman View Post
    PeterA, those photos illustrate my point perfectly. The most amazing XPan docu photos I have seen are from Ben Rusnak when he was doing work for a charity organization in Haiti. It takes your breath away.

    http://www.benjaminrusnak.com/1246520-23
    Wonderful photos, both these and the ones displayed in previous posts on this thread! Thank you for posting the link, Richard.

    G

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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Gentlemen,

    Forgive my ignorance. In what way can an XPan be different from a cropped WA lens? I thought it WAS a cropped WA lens, and the sense of less distortion comes from the cropping of the corners where most of the WA distortion is evident.

    Is it actually a more cylindrical projection without the use of a curved film plane? What distortions are induced in the lens so that it can deviate from a planar projection? How would the lens perform on 645 film?

    Confused,

    Matt
    There's no magic about the XPan lenses other than they are designed to cover a larger than 24x32mm image circle (24 X 65 mm).

    I have the entire 30/45/90 combo and other than being extremely sharp I haven't noticed any special pixie dust magic about the edges of the frame beyond flat field projection and lack of distortion.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 8th July 2016 at 10:51.
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    Subscriber and Workshop Member MGrayson's Avatar
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    Re: What Hasselblad *won't* be announcing on the 22nd. (Cross-Posted)

    Thanks, Graham. Excellent lenses with large image circles I understand from tech cams, and they are, as you well know, wonderful.

    Best,

    Matt

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