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Thread: Hasselblad X1D

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    It's a great idea to start knitting my ski mask. I did the math and it needs a lot of help.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It's a great idea to start knitting my ski mask. I did the math and it needs a lot of help.
    You might really want to handle one before doing anything rash, I thought I really wanted a Sony A7R a couple years back, but decided against it after I visited a friend who had the Sony and I got to use it. It almost seemed like a no-brainer to have a small and light, but still capable camera that you could adapt any lens to, but it was actually too small for comfort and I felt like it compromised on too many features to get there. Something I didn't anticipate just perusing spec sheets. YMMV.
    Give me a nice solid SLR anyday, which doesn't come with tons of fine print listing what you can't do and in which modes. Even the mighty Leica SL locks focus when shooting at 11fps, and you have to step down to 7fps to actually get it to do what it's supposed to. Amazing by mirrorless standards either way, but always anticipate stuff like this.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    I would highly recommend for anyone to wait until Photokina before spending any amount on MF gear. I bet Fuji will come along with a 4k MF rangefinder - which will seriously make all other manufacturer's prices too high in comparison.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    I would highly recommend for anyone to wait until Photokina before spending any amount on MF gear. I bet Fuji will come along with a 4k MF rangefinder - which will seriously make all other manufacturer's prices too high in comparison.
    Unless they've made a terrific breakthrough in the cost of manufacturing a 50Mpixel 33x44 mm sensor, I imagine the Fuji pricing will be quite similar to the Pentax 645Z.

    But regardless, lower price alone is not a good reason to buy a particular camera system. There has to be more to the choice than that. Cameras like this are not interchangeable commodities. It certainly makes sense to wait until Photokina before spending $9000 to $16000 on a new camera and lenses to see what the other manufacturers are offering since it's obvious there are going to be new products announced. But basing your selection purely on price doesn't really make sense unless the products are otherwise identical in performance, function, and quality.

    G

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    ...
    Give me a nice solid SLR anyday, which doesn't come with tons of fine print listing what you can't do and in which modes. Even the mighty Leica SL locks focus when shooting at 11fps, and you have to step down to 7fps to actually get it to do what it's supposed to. Amazing by mirrorless standards either way, but always anticipate stuff like this.
    You lead me to ask: How often do you find yourself shooting at 11fps? And with what camera?

    Seems to me my D750 manual is about a 360 page book with many many notes and warnings about what settings work in what circumstances and how...

    G

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    I would highly recommend for anyone to wait until Photokina before spending any amount on MF gear. I bet Fuji will come along with a 4k MF rangefinder - which will seriously make all other manufacturer's prices too high in comparison.
    It is a "no brainer", Paul.

    (Not just the price but also the lack of a focal plane shutter in the XP1).

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    I would highly recommend for anyone to wait until Photokina before spending any amount on MF gear. I bet Fuji will come along with a 4k MF rangefinder - which will seriously make all other manufacturer's prices too high in comparison.
    Why would Fuji come along a MF camera? Sure, they had some in their film days, but the question is: why would they develop a MF camera now? Their X-series of cameras is doing very well, I would rather expect them to continue investing in that direction.

    And the idea that Fuji could do it much cheaper is strange. The X1D is about the price the Pentax was when it was first presented. New high megapixels 24x36 cameras and their lenses are markedly more expensive than the previous generation. If anything, I expect the price of new high end cameras to increase by Photokina, not the other way round.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Everyone is thinking Sony or Fuji while the company that really maybe the one is Phase. They have the resources they already have the sensor and they own all the rights to Mamiya and Leaf. They have maybe the best shot at this and who knows it already maybe in the works. Here is the kicker in all this and hold the real royal flush is Sony imaging. They control both companies sensors. It would also not be that hard to turn there current new body with some integration of course and make it into a mirror less body. Surely They can pop three lenses out for release too. Not sure but they probably own the patent on the Mamiya 7 glass. Would it be that hard to startup the production on them and update them for digital. Point being no matter how you slice the cheese they are in the best position to make a move on something like this. They can also do a adapter for all there current Phase One lenses just like Hassy. I know one thing for sure they love to go after each other. Lol

    Question is what's lurking behind those doors. LOL

    They are not going to sit there and watch revenue hit the floor boards
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post

    They are not going to sit there and watch revenue hit the floor boards
    Honestly Guy


    I think that Sony's base has little interest in a camera that is north of $4K ... not to mention lenses and computer hardware to handle
    50Mp files and layers. So this may not have a major impact on their bottom line.

    They may want to have bragging rights to embellish their chip gravitas so they may take a hit just to be there.

    If they enter the fray I hope that they find someone who can tune their UI. It is an unmitigated disaster and
    most MF folks have no patience for poor programming and user interface.

    Still ... at this level I will back industrial design and permanence ... not flavor of the month.

    Interesting times...


    Bob

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    In the interview with the Hasselblad CEO, one of the interesting things to me about the X1D was what he said about the development time. IIRC, it was "about a year and a half", the idea having been floated about a year before that.

    The X1D is a very simple body when you analyze it: a new casting, sensor and electronics from the X6H/X5H, no shutter, and no mirror. Development of two lenses with essentially the same mount electronics but for a shorter mount register; apertures and shutters in the lenses with control protocols well established and inherited from the XH line—mount simply extended for the shorter flange register.

    I suspect that developing a body like this, even a mirrorless body, with a focal plane shutter would have doubled the time to market due to all the additional work required to develop and tailor a shutter to this new body. If that is a reasonable assumption, for Fuji or Phase to have a similar product with focal plane shutter ready for introduction this Fall means that they might have to have been working on it since late 2012 or thereabouts. And the development costs would be greater purely on the basis of the amount of time required to do it. What would all that do to the price, despite the presumably greater production resources that a company like Fuji or Phase could throw at it?

    All just speculating and playing the "what if" game. Note that I'm not even sure whether the present Phase cameras are in-body shutter or in-lens shutters. :-)

    G

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Honestly Guy


    I think that Sony's base has little interest in a camera that is north of $4K ... not to mention lenses and computer hardware to handle
    50Mp files and layers. So this may not have a major impact on their bottom line.

    They may want to have bragging rights to embellish their chip gravitas so they may take a hit just to be there.

    If they enter the fray I hope that they find someone who can tune their UI. It is an unmitigated disaster and
    most MF folks have no patience for poor programming and user interface.

    Still ... at this level I will back industrial design and permanence ... not flavor of the month.

    Interesting times...


    Bob
    I was talking about Phase jumping in
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    In the interview with the Hasselblad CEO, one of the interesting things to me about the X1D was what he said about the development time. IIRC, it was "about a year and a half", the idea having been floated about a year before that.

    The X1D is a very simple body when you analyze it: a new casting, sensor and electronics from the X6H/X5H, no shutter, and no mirror. Development of two lenses with essentially the same mount electronics but for a shorter mount register; apertures and shutters in the lenses with control protocols well established and inherited from the XH line—mount simply extended for the shorter flange register.

    I suspect that developing a body like this, even a mirrorless body, with a focal plane shutter would have doubled the time to market due to all the additional work required to develop and tailor a shutter to this new body. If that is a reasonable assumption, for Fuji or Phase to have a similar product with focal plane shutter ready for introduction this Fall means that they might have to have been working on it since late 2012 or thereabouts. And the development costs would be greater purely on the basis of the amount of time required to do it. What would all that do to the price, despite the presumably greater production resources that a company like Fuji or Phase could throw at it?

    All just speculating and playing the "what if" game. Note that I'm not even sure whether the present Phase cameras are in-body shutter or in-lens shutters. :-)

    G

    They are focal plane shutters but they have several lenses that are leaf shutter. But it works in combination with the FP. Not sure how they do that to be honest. This Hassy body I agree is a very simple camera mostly it's a firmware camera. Not a lot of mechanical going on per say. Nothing is moving on it
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Actually there is nothing stopping Phase to make it a leaf shutter camera either . They already have maybe 4 or 5 with LS. But I'm not sure exactly how they operate in conjunction with there current FP body.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Spinnler View Post
    I would highly recommend for anyone to wait until Photokina before spending any amount on MF gear. I bet Fuji will come along with a 4k MF rangefinder - which will seriously make all other manufacturer's prices too high in comparison.
    Rumor seems to be Fuji MFD body for less than X1D and will come out with three lenses.

    Something like a digital Mamiya 7 with three lenses would be sweet. An XE2 on steroids!!

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Actually there is nothing stopping Phase to make it a leaf shutter camera either . They already have maybe 4 or 5 with LS. But I'm not sure exactly how they operate in conjunction with there current FP body.
    You are correct as Phase has 10 LS lenses and 9 FPS lenses they currently offer for MF use on their cameras. Either work perfectly on the XF body I am told. Their latest LS Blue Line lenses are smarter than previous model LS lenses.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I was talking about Phase jumping in
    You are correct that Phase has the most to lose ... however they seem the most inertia bound company of the three.

    Look at how long they took to introduce the XF ... and it was a marginal improvement over Hasselblads H1 ....

    So they may lose a lot if they do not find a way to differentiate their line other than Capture One compatibility.


    At least Hasselblad tends to discount their older models periodically ... with Phase it is always high dollar wins.


    Bob

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    There's a thread in the Phase One support forum that implies they have already thought about it...of course they disclose nothing.

    http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtop...e943ac0848d923

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    Talking Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It's a great idea to start knitting my ski mask. I did the math and it needs a lot of help.
    Ok I'll play 'devil's advocate' here for you Guy.

    You:
    1. You already have 42 megapixels in your Sony kit - really not THAT much more resolution out of 50.
    2. The Hasselblad X1D doesn't have the versatility of your Sony kit- no focal plane shutter for example and no ability to adapt whatever lens you wish to the 42 megapixels.
    3. You love C1 and are used to that workflow
    4. You suspect that someone (like Phase One) will announce something similar/.better in due course or Fuji or Sony

    Therefore, there is NO reason for you to want to use this camera except GAS.

    Me?

    1. I don't like the Sony body and menu system - I love the files - but the body is too small for me to be comfortable - the SIZE is great - but ergonomics are wrong - I already have pretty much every great M lens ever made - no way would I switch to less quality for autofocus.
    2. My MF gear all maxes out at 40 megapixels and I don't need the size/weight hassle anymore for my shooting - I dont use the stuff. The focal plane shutter option in MF systems is great I pick and choose between focal plane and Leaf - and prefer Leaf shutter if possible - because of strobe shooting - so I'm happy to go with a leaf shutter system
    3. I think C1 is a pile of candy crapola as far as image processing and management software goes and far far prefer Phocus( best raw file from MF backs) /CaptureFlow(best light shade processing by far as far as tech camera files go) and LR in THAT order as far as pure RAW image development goes.

    You: No legacy systems to sell and switch big tick
    Me: legacy systems aplenty - can rationalise heaps of gear at 20 cents in the dollar mind you! ( barrier to exit?)

    I read the comments on this thread about the camera - and the negatives are about

    1. what the camera DOESNT have
    2. Cost
    3. Someone for sure will come out with something equally good at half the price.

    So same old arguments about this camera as every other new release from anyone.

    Yep if I were you I'd wait for someone else to come out with a better camera than this one in due course.

    Easy eh?
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Everyone is thinking Sony or Fuji while the company that really maybe the one is Phase. They have the resources they already have the sensor and they own all the rights to Mamiya and Leaf. They have maybe the best shot at this and who knows it already maybe in the works. Here is the kicker in all this and hold the real royal flush is Sony imaging. They control both companies sensors. It would also not be that hard to turn there current new body with some integration of course and make it into a mirror less body. Surely They can pop three lenses out for release too. Not sure but they probably own the patent on the Mamiya 7 glass. Would it be that hard to startup the production on them and update them for digital. Point being no matter how you slice the cheese they are in the best position to make a move on something like this. They can also do a adapter for all there current Phase One lenses just like Hassy. I know one thing for sure they love to go after each other. Lol

    Question is what's lurking behind those doors. LOL

    They are not going to sit there and watch revenue hit the floor boards
    i could see this and between Phase One and Leaf I would hope they made a mirrorless camera that was branded as a Leaf since Phase One really doesn't give Leaf their own identity. As they stand now they're stripped down Phase One cameras with better (IMO) color. A mirrorless body would give some unique purpose to keeping the leaf brand alive.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Love at first sight! Beautiful design and the 'concept' many have been waiting for. In a years time maybe we have three to four alternatives from the usual suspects and what a great time to be a photographer.

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    ... a mirrorless camera that was branded as a Leaf ...
    As a longtime Leaf and Alpa shooter I would love to see a Leaf alternative with detachable grip (flat front for easier adapting to an Alpa Max) and a trigger input for the Copal with tech lenses. Brilliant!
    Two 'completely' different systems/purposes in one single, small, light body.
    If that happens - I'm game.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    I read the comments on this thread about the camera - and the negatives are about

    1. what the camera DOESNT have
    2. Cost
    3. Someone for sure will come out with something equally good at half the price.

    So same old arguments about this camera as every other new release from anyone.

    Yep if I were you I'd wait for someone else to come out with a better camera than this one in due course.

    Easy eh?
    Well said! Bunch of dreamers here, waiting for another player for the perfect system. Sure in 10 years you'll get a better one with all the features for a fraction of the money. Meanwhile I enjoy X1D from the beginning. Ordered on the very first day of the official announcement.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    If I were in the market for a new camera, I would have also ordered this X1D the minute it was announced.

    This camera is a known entity, what may come from others is not known. We can speculate … but those photographers with a Hasselblad background probably don't care. They are into leaf-shutter, know Phocus, probably already have HC/HCD lenses (or already used/like them), are familiar with how Hasselblad's philosophy regarding ergonomics and interface fits them, etc. etc.

    Based on history, a Sony MFD Mirror-less wouldn't interest me even if less expensive. I do not like Sony's philosophy regarding ergonomics and interface and most added features on current Sony cameras are distractions and detractions (i.e, not something I need, want, and wish weren't there).

    I don't know much about Fuji, (other than my XPan experience and that they partnered with Hasselblad on the e-prism for the H camera as well as manufactured the HC/HCD lenses) so that would remain to be seen if they jump in. The wrinkle in this would be whether their partnership with Hasselblad would extend to a mirror-less MFD; where the mirror-less lens designs would be sourced; and where potential sales would come from since MFD is such a small slice of the photo gear pie to start with.

    35mm FF sensor 43 and 50 meg cameras satisfy those that don't get MFD with bigger sensors, so that doesn't appear to be a rich source of new buyers. Hasselblad users with existing H stuff or H experience do not seem a likely target for Sony/Fuji. Phase users with a king's ransom in gear aren't MFD bargain hunters, so the low cost to buy a different system/big loss to sell existing system seems an unlikely appeal … (which in my case, with Leica S and six CS lenses, also applies).

    I guess we'll see.

    IMO, the key here is that with the recent H6, CMOS sensor, new HC/HCD 1/2000 leaf-shutter lenses, and now this X1D Mirror-less marvel, Hasselblad has swiftly returned to its proper place and sphere of influence in the photographic world.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    You lead me to ask: How often do you find yourself shooting at 11fps? And with what camera?

    Seems to me my D750 manual is about a 360 page book with many many notes and warnings about what settings work in what circumstances and how...
    It's just an example, I picked the SL because it's yet another mirrorless camera that is advertised as being a DSLR-killer on the level of pro Canon and Nikon bodies in terms of speed, but manages only half their frame rate for moving subjects. I don't use fast-shooting cameras like that myself, but it may lead someone else to believe that it's a viable alternative.
    The A7R did things like use lossy Raw compression or drop down to 12-bits in any mode other than single-shot, all without telling you, and many people didn't know about this till later. Sony did eventually issue an update to allow you to shoot uncompressed Raw, but it compromised by doubling file sizes and slowing down the shooting speed. Your D750 would never be found guilty with any of this.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    No doubt the X1D lacks many "features" that are offered by the Sony A7rII and other FF 35mm cameras like the D810 and the 5DSR and the overall image quality with the X1D will be better but not light years ahead. What I do expect the X1D to offer that those cameras do not is a physical design and a user interface that make it a joy to shoot with. I have a Sony A7RII. I love the image quality. Yet, it is not a joy to shoot with. I put up with it. Everyone decides for himself what price to to put on such intangibles.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    It's just an example, I picked the SL because it's yet another mirrorless camera that is advertised as being a DSLR-killer on the level of pro Canon and Nikon bodies in terms of speed, but manages only half their frame rate for moving subjects. I don't use fast-shooting cameras like that myself, but it may lead someone else to believe that it's a viable alternative.
    The A7R did things like use lossy Raw compression or drop down to 12-bits in any mode other than single-shot, all without telling you, and many people didn't know about this till later. Sony did eventually issue an update to allow you to shoot uncompressed Raw, but it compromised by doubling file sizes and slowing down the shooting speed. Your D750 would never be found guilty with any of this.
    I guess my beef here is that you promulgate a meme that "mirrorless cameras are substandard because the advertising says this and it's not entirely true".

    Well, advertising hype is noxious and stupid in all cases, regardless of what's being advertised—it should be ignored and actual data sought. Bombastic promissories like "Nikon/Canon killer" are absurd mechanisms to incite the bloom of fantasy. All cameras have their limitations—yes, even DSLRs. Some cameras work well and pose advantages, others do not.

    All cameras do some things which are undocumented and occasionally downright wrong. The only way to figure that out is to study the cameras objectively and dispassionately, determine what they do and don't do, and then evaluate how that affects your photography. First hand experience with a particular camera is the only way I trust to form credible opinions. This is why I've owned so many of them, and tossed so many aside as unusable. Some SLRs are delightful, others are trash. Same goes for mirrorless, or rangefinder. It's not a camera type at fault: it's the specific camera that doesn't suit your desires and expectations whether warranted or not.

    I get it: you don't like mirrorless for your personal reasons, whatever they might be, and your rationalizing it to the relationship between truth and advertising. I can't share your blanket condemnation of a camera type because advertising is a puffery intended to ensnare the hopeful with fantasy.

    G

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    No doubt the X1D lacks many "features" that are offered by the Sony A7rII and other FF 35mm cameras like the D810 and the 5DSR and the overall image quality with the X1D will be better but not light years ahead. What I do expect the X1D to offer that those cameras do not is a physical design and a user interface that make it a joy to shoot with. I have a Sony A7RII. I love the image quality. Yet, it is not a joy to shoot with. I put up with it. Everyone decides for himself what price to to put on such intangibles.
    Agreed.

    The reason I use Leica M cameras has nothing to do with market leading resolution or dynamic range but everything to do with the sheer joy I get from using them.

    Priceless.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I have a Sony A7RII. I love the image quality. Yet, it is not a joy to shoot with. I put up with it. Everyone decides for himself what price to to put on such intangibles.
    Try customizing with special grips, straps, crystals....
    You could even change the name to something that makes you jump with joy.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Try customizing with special grips, straps, crystals....
    You could even change the name to something that makes you jump with joy.
    Clearly, you don't get it. I am NOT talking about putting lipstick on a pig.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Clearly, you don't get it. I am NOT talking about putting lipstick on a pig.
    Naturally. Especially when the difference is between a making sandwich to eat or making it a pet.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Everyone is thinking Sony or Fuji while the company that really maybe the one is Phase. They have the resources they already have the sensor and they own all the rights to Mamiya and Leaf. They have maybe the best shot at this and who knows it already maybe in the works. Here is the kicker in all this and hold the real royal flush is Sony imaging. They control both companies sensors. It would also not be that hard to turn there current new body with some integration of course and make it into a mirror less body. Surely They can pop three lenses out for release too. Not sure but they probably own the patent on the Mamiya 7 glass. Would it be that hard to startup the production on them and update them for digital. Point being no matter how you slice the cheese they are in the best position to make a move on something like this. They can also do a adapter for all there current Phase One lenses just like Hassy. I know one thing for sure they love to go after each other. Lol

    Question is what's lurking behind those doors. LOL

    They are not going to sit there and watch revenue hit the floor boards
    I've said this before. Phase has great products but their pricing leaves me gasping. When the Pentax 645z came out, it was a better sensor/body package than the Phase IQ250 with an identical sensor and yet the latter was priced at more than four times. One would have thought then that Phase would lower their prices but they did not.

    To my mind, a successful business strategy would be to sell more at a lower profit margin than to sell a few at a higher markup. At least this is what I've heard from those in my extended family who own multi-million dollar retail businesses. But I doubt Phase will follow this model, since their philosophy is to cater to a select group of people through a dealership network that adds its own costs. It is a 'club' model and the exclusivity of this club is what maybe attractive to many, 'value for money' being such a subjective phenomenon.

    However, there is nothing inherently wrong with this strategy if it generates revenues that satisfy the shareholders/owners. But somehow I doubt if we will see Phase coming up with something as interesting as the X1D or better, especially at this price point. They will have to break a lot of their own barriers to do so and it will mean jeopardizing the sales of existing systems.

    My own feeling is that Pentax may well come up with a surprise this year. They were really the game-changers in the MF world, releasing a truly revolutionary sensor/body combination at a very attractive price - at the time, just a tad more than what I paid for my 1DX or M9/M240.

    I wait eagerly for Photokina. May quite possibly get the X1D or equivalent at that time.
    Too much to list, let's just say I have a bad case of GAS.........
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Hi,

    It is difficult to predict the way Phase One will act.

    The impression I may have is that Hasselblad may be a bit more affordable while Phase One aims to be more exclusive. A little bit like Seiko and Rolex. Seiko makes watches that do what all watches do, show time. Seiko is still quite a bit more expensive than a Casio.

    I think that Phase One wants to stay a bit exclusive, work with dealers and so on. My guess is that Hasselblad strives to be more of a great tool for the working professional. Being a bit more exclusive than say Nikon and Sony, but still deliver performance at a decent price. I also guess that Hasselblad may be less oriented towards an expensive network of dealers and be happy to sell trough shops like B&H Photovideo, et al.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    I've said this before. Phase has great products but their pricing leaves me gasping. When the Pentax 645z came out, it was a better sensor/body package than the Phase IQ250 with an identical sensor and yet the latter was priced at more than four times. One would have thought then that Phase would lower their prices but they did not.

    To my mind, a successful business strategy would be to sell more at a lower profit margin than to sell a few at a higher markup. At least this is what I've heard from those in my extended family who own multi-million dollar retail businesses. But I doubt Phase will follow this model, since their philosophy is to cater to a select group of people through a dealership network that adds its own costs. It is a 'club' model and the exclusivity of this club is what maybe attractive to many, 'value for money' being such a subjective phenomenon.

    However, there is nothing inherently wrong with this strategy if it generates revenues that satisfy the shareholders/owners. But somehow I doubt if we will see Phase coming up with something as interesting as the X1D or better, especially at this price point. They will have to break a lot of their own barriers to do so and it will mean jeopardizing the sales of existing systems.

    My own feeling is that Pentax may well come up with a surprise this year. They were really the game-changers in the MF world, releasing a truly revolutionary sensor/body combination at a very attractive price - at the time, just a tad more than what I paid for my 1DX or M9/M240.

    I wait eagerly for Photokina. May quite possibly get the X1D or equivalent at that time.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I don't know much about Fuji, (other than my XPan experience and that they partnered with Hasselblad on the e-prism for the H camera as well as manufactured the HC/HCD lenses) so that would remain to be seen if they jump in. The wrinkle in this would be whether their partnership with Hasselblad would extend to a mirror-less MFD; where the mirror-less lens designs would be sourced; and where potential sales would come from since MFD is such a small slice of the photo gear pie to start with.
    The maker best positioned to make an excellent mirrorless MFD would be Fuji. They have experience building MF camera bodies. They make some of the best lenses in the world and have experience making lenses for mirrorless. But more important they have great knowledge of how to incorporate the advantages of mirrorless into a usable camera. And, they have a fantastic history of upgrading their cameras via firmware at no charge so the Fuji mirroless camera you purchase today is actually a better camera in a couple of years.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    To my mind, a successful business strategy would be to sell more at a lower profit margin than to sell a few at a higher markup. At least this is what I've heard from those in my extended family who own multi-million dollar retail businesses. But I doubt Phase will follow this model, since their philosophy is to cater to a select group of people through a dealership network that adds its own costs. It is a 'club' model and the exclusivity of this club is what maybe attractive to many, 'value for money' being such a subjective phenomenon.

    However, there is nothing inherently wrong with this strategy if it generates revenues that satisfy the shareholders/owners. But somehow I doubt if we will see Phase coming up with something as interesting as the X1D or better, especially at this price point. They will have to break a lot of their own barriers to do so and it will mean jeopardizing the sales of existing systems.
    Phase's business model worked great because they had exclusive access towards the 80MP Dalsa CCD sensor back in 2011. I don't think it will continue to work well while everyone else has access to the 100MP Sony CMOS sensor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    My own feeling is that Pentax may well come up with a surprise this year. They were really the game-changers in the MF world, releasing a truly revolutionary sensor/body combination at a very attractive price - at the time, just a tad more than what I paid for my 1DX or M9/M240.

    I wait eagerly for Photokina. May quite possibly get the X1D or equivalent at that time.
    I think that a fullframe 645 100MP camera body from Pentax is highly likely.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by David Schneider View Post
    The maker best positioned to make an excellent mirrorless MFD would be Fuji. They have experience building MF camera bodies. They make some of the best lenses in the world and have experience making lenses for mirrorless. But more important they have great knowledge of how to incorporate the advantages of mirrorless into a usable camera. And, they have a fantastic history of upgrading their cameras via firmware at no charge so the Fuji mirroless camera you purchase today is actually a better camera in a couple of years.
    Well, the rumors seem hot on this possibility, and you are right, Fuji has made some nifty MF cameras in past. They seem pretty good at the electronic side of things also.

    Man, the world is going to be saturated with 50 meg cameras in the not to distant future.

    - Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    I bet the X1D will be back ordered for the rest of 2016 or even into 2017

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    I bet the X1D will be back ordered for the rest of 2016 or even into 2017
    I would venture to predict that the used cameras will be a difficult sell going against the new Fuji, etc competition.
    Sale Items (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-...8806-sale.html)
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by David Schneider View Post
    The maker best positioned to make an excellent mirrorless MFD would be Fuji. They have experience building MF camera bodies. They make some of the best lenses in the world and have experience making lenses for mirrorless. But more important they have great knowledge of how to incorporate the advantages of mirrorless into a usable camera. And, they have a fantastic history of upgrading their cameras via firmware at no charge so the Fuji mirroless camera you purchase today is actually a better camera in a couple of years.
    Why would Fuji come along a MF camera? Sure, they had some in their film days, but the question is: why would they develop a MF camera now? Their X-series of cameras is doing very well, I would rather expect them to continue investing in that direction.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I would venture to predict that the used cameras will be a difficult sell going against the new Fuji, etc competition.

    What new Fuji ? Idle speculation

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    I posted this on LL but it seems relevant here too:

    People have said again and again in this thread that this camera is not for them.

    Bottom line is that this camera will suit a lot of people, in fact Hasselblad have had more orders in a week than they had hoped for the entire year.

    I'd call that a winner.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    I posted this on LL but it seems relevant here too:

    People have said again and again in this thread that this camera is not for them.

    Bottom line is that this camera will suit a lot of people, in fact Hasselblad have had more orders in a week than they had hoped for the entire year.

    I'd call that a winner.
    That's amazing! Spells good news for future versions/upgrades of mirrorless medium format, and for the competition in general.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by DougDolde View Post
    What new Fuji ? Idle speculation
    You've been out of the loop for a while, Doug? Read the posts here on this in this thread. The guy at fujirumors acts as an official leak site for fuji.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    People speculate that Fuji will use the same sensor and have an electronic shutter of PDAF or whatever, but the fact of the matter is the chip does not support it without dropping to 12bit or, in the case of PDAF, without significant changes to its design. Are people suggesting that they'll get a completely new sensor, or what?

    I don't know what the fuss is about with regards to Fuji mirrorless cameras. I've tried to use them and by my own (admittedly very personal) measures they're horrible. Not in terms of end image quality, but the handling and UI. The only thing I liked about them was manual aperture ring and shutter speed dial. And I'm with others here with regards to the Sony mirrorless cameras. Great tools, but I found them a chore to pick up and use, for the most part due to UI.
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  43. #593
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    I find all this very exciting, medium format is in my future.
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Phase's business model worked great because they had exclusive access towards the 80MP Dalsa CCD sensor back in 2011. I don't think it will continue to work well while everyone else has access to the 100MP Sony CMOS sensor.



    I think that a fullframe 645 100MP camera body from Pentax is highly likely.
    It may well turn out to be true. If the sensor is not proprietary, then nothing stops Pentax from putting it in their own FF body. Seeing as they did a much better job with the 645z than contemporary offerings of the time, it would not be surprising at all if they could do it again.

    The question then is will the new body be smaller/mirrorless or not. If they can pull that off (mirrorless FF) that would be a real coup.

    It is inevitable, IMHO, that somebody besides Phase will come up with a FF MF sensor with 80/100MP on it. That would be way more exciting than the X1D although it is in itself quite a leap forward. But some of us who have a 42MP A7RII with the new lenses find it is not enough to make the switch in a hurry.

    MF, to me, means either a significantly larger sensor than 35mm and/or significantly higher resolution.
    Too much to list, let's just say I have a bad case of GAS.........
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Hi Jerome,

    More responding to the thread than to your posting…

    There are a lot of rumours from sources that used to be reliable. If you ask why Fuji would make an MFD camera you may as well ask why they would not? Fuji has always been an actor in MFD. The Hasselblad H-series was sold under the Fuji label in Japan, you may recall, and they make all the lenses for the H-series.

    The X-series are well designed. Fuji probably can develop an MFD device based on the Sony sensor at ease. They have the electronics and they certainly can make the lenses.

    Best regards
    Erik




    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Why would Fuji come along a MF camera? Sure, they had some in their film days, but the question is: why would they develop a MF camera now? Their X-series of cameras is doing very well, I would rather expect them to continue investing in that direction.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Hi,

    Personally, I would expect to see next generation of the 44x33mm Sony sensor coming in at 70-125Mp. It is reasonable to expect that Sony's MFD sensors correspond to same generation full frame sensors. Right now we have:

    • APS-C at 24 MP
    • Full frame 36x24 at 42 MP
    • 44x33 at 50 MP
    • 54x40 at 100 MP


    But, rumours about 70-75MP full frame 36x24 are quite intensive.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    It may well turn out to be true. If the sensor is not proprietary, then nothing stops Pentax from putting it in their own FF body. Seeing as they did a much better job with the 645z than contemporary offerings of the time, it would not be surprising at all if they could do it again.

    The question then is will the new body be smaller/mirrorless or not. If they can pull that off (mirrorless FF) that would be a real coup.

    It is inevitable, IMHO, that somebody besides Phase will come up with a FF MF sensor with 80/100MP on it. That would be way more exciting than the X1D although it is in itself quite a leap forward. But some of us who have a 42MP A7RII with the new lenses find it is not enough to make the switch in a hurry.

    MF, to me, means either a significantly larger sensor than 35mm and/or significantly higher resolution.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    It may well turn out to be true. If the sensor is not proprietary, then nothing stops Pentax from putting it in their own FF body. Seeing as they did a much better job with the 645z than contemporary offerings of the time, it would not be surprising at all if they could do it again.

    The question then is will the new body be smaller/mirrorless or not. If they can pull that off (mirrorless FF) that would be a real coup.

    It is inevitable, IMHO, that somebody besides Phase will come up with a FF MF sensor with 80/100MP on it. That would be way more exciting than the X1D although it is in itself quite a leap forward. But some of us who have a 42MP A7RII with the new lenses find it is not enough to make the switch in a hurry.

    MF, to me, means either a significantly larger sensor than 35mm and/or significantly higher resolution.
    Since I had a comparable sensor camera to the Pentax 645Z, I'll disagree with you that they did a better job. While it was a terrific kit for some folks, and certainly broke the price grip of the major MFD players (thank you Pentax!), the 645Z was a non-modular system at a time when modularity was a real advantage. Both Hasselblad and Phase One were more fleshed out systems cameras.

    Regarding your comparison to an A7R-II (which I own and shoot with excellent Zeiss lenses), I say again that such a comparison to the Hasselblad XD1 misses the point. It isn't just one component, the sensor, that weighs in the balance here. This is a specific type of camera that uses Leaf-Shutter lenses including a vast array of existing LS optics, has a UI miles ahead of the Sony (IMHO), and is a known entity to many long-time H and CFV users in terms of their True Color and tonal rendering.

    Even taking the sensor alone: the XD1's more practical aspect ratio and additional volume is quite an advantage. The additional usable area is more than 50% larger than the A7R-II … so, in effect, resolution then becomes a function of what portion of the frame actually gets used in the end … not just spec's on paper. That becomes even more pointed if one is a Square Format lover (like myself).

    Personally, I'm not terribly interested in 100 meg anything, so such news would be far from "way more exciting". It is getting harder and harder to realize all this resolution in everyday shooting. Again, not tech talk and spec's on paper, but real world use.

    I see what Hasselblad has done here as a "real world" camera that significantly delivers new user experiences without walking away from their heritage as a leaf-shutter solution for those that prefer that.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    In response to the Fuji / Sony MF suggestion:

    It seems like only a few years ago (probably because it was) that we had our first compact with a 35mm sensor in. Now we 35mm sensors in loads of bodies and have a compact with a medium format sensor.

    Price doesn't really come into it when a type of product is being brought forward. I don't think it's that much of an influence anyway. You see, if an item is shown to be worth the investment people will buy it. I fully expect there to be a wall of '35mm isn't good enough' statements from the likes of Sony, Fuji hey, maybe Canon / Nikon in the next 5 years because these companies need to push the boundaries of the niche as smartphones are killing the sales of their base products.

    I can TOTALLY see Hasselblad cannibalizing their lens range and licensing it to Sony as we're not talking about Hassy's main professional platform.
    Chris Giles Photography

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Hi,

    I never heard any statement from Canon, Nikon, Sony or Fuji that this or that format is not enough. Fuji is quite happy with APS-C while Olympus and Panasonic are making 4/3 cameras.

    The simple truth is that any of those cameras is good enough for professional work at least up to something like A2 size.

    On the other hand, there is something called development making any of those systems more capable over time.

    Interestingly, MFD makers used to be more bound to make claims, like 16 bit colour although no MF sensor ever contained more than 14 bits of usable data before the IQ3 100. Interestingly Hasselblad still talks about 16-bit colour, although the X1D is very clearly a 14-bit device.

    Anyway, I don't care much about marketing speak, I try to get hold of raw files and find out myself.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    In response to the Fuji / Sony MF suggestion:

    It seems like only a few years ago (probably because it was) that we had our first compact with a 35mm sensor in. Now we 35mm sensors in loads of bodies and have a compact with a medium format sensor.

    Price doesn't really come into it when a type of product is being brought forward. I don't think it's that much of an influence anyway. You see, if an item is shown to be worth the investment people will buy it. I fully expect there to be a wall of '35mm isn't good enough' statements from the likes of Sony, Fuji hey, maybe Canon / Nikon in the next 5 years because these companies need to push the boundaries of the niche as smartphones are killing the sales of their base products.

    I can TOTALLY see Hasselblad cannibalizing their lens range and licensing it to Sony as we're not talking about Hassy's main professional platform.

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    Re: Hasselblad X1D

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Since I had a comparable sensor camera to the Pentax 645Z, I'll disagree with you that they did a better job. While it was a terrific kit for some folks, and certainly broke the price grip of the major MFD players (thank you Pentax!), the 645Z was a non-modular system at a time when modularity was a real advantage. Both Hasselblad and Phase One were more fleshed out systems cameras.
    Marc, at the risk of causing serious thread drift, I must disagree. I owned the Phase IQ180 before I got the Pentax so I know that system. Don't know anything about Hassy though. The only advantage modularity provided at the time was the ability to put the digital back on tech cameras, something that had no appeal for me and I dare say a limited one to many other people. I do agree that Phase and Hassy both had a much better offering in lenses. The other advantage of the big players (leaf shutter, high speed flash sync etc) was also lost on me since I don't do people. It was also of no use to purely landscape enthusiasts.

    The Pentax body was a significant improvement over what Phase (645 DF+) was offering until the release of the XF. Yes, it is big and boxy with lots of knobs and buttons but they are all much more logical and useful than the competition was.

    Regarding your comparison to an A7R-II (which I own and shoot with excellent Zeiss lenses), I say again that such a comparison to the Hasselblad XD1 misses the point. It isn't just one component, the sensor, that weighs in the balance here. This is a specific type of camera that uses Leaf-Shutter lenses including a vast array of existing LS optics, has a UI miles ahead of the Sony (IMHO), and is a known entity to many long-time H and CFV users in terms of their True Color and tonal rendering.

    Even taking the sensor alone: the XD1's more practical aspect ratio and additional volume is quite an advantage. The additional usable area is more than 50% larger than the A7R-II … so, in effect, resolution then becomes a function of what portion of the frame actually gets used in the end … not just spec's on paper. That becomes even more pointed if one is a Square Format lover (like myself).
    Agree partially, and I've said all along that the X1D is a big leap forward, offering a big MF sensor in a small body. But we don't really know the exact UI yet. From everything I've read people are still wondering if the AF point can be moved or not, so the actual functionality of the camera is yet to be determined. I will grant you that Sony could definitely improve upon their own system in this regard.

    A square or even 4:3 ratio does not appeal to me as a predominantly landscape shooter, it probably does to people into fashion and maybe weddings. I agree there is a lot more real estate even with a cropped 645 sensor, but I almost always have to trim it down to either 3:2 or even 16:9 - unless I stitch, which I find myself doing a lot - so the real area that is useful to me is actually not that much larger.

    Personally, I'm not terribly interested in 100 meg anything, so such news would be far from "way more exciting". It is getting harder and harder to realize all this resolution in everyday shooting. Again, not tech talk and spec's on paper, but real world use.
    As I said earlier, TO ME the advantage of MF over 35mm (don't want to start a long debate here) is sensor size (thus lower noise for same pixels) and/or higher resolution (larger, more 'immersive' prints). Don't care about shallow DOF (actually a disadvantage for landscape use) or bokeh for my work. I print 44X28 or larger routinely so the extra resolution does help.

    I see what Hasselblad has done here as a "real world" camera that significantly delivers new user experiences without walking away from their heritage as a leaf-shutter solution for those that prefer that.

    - Marc
    Agree, it is a novel camera and I might end up getting it when more details emerge. Right now it's use for me is rather limited since I do not do the kind of imaging that requires or benefits from LS etc that I mentioned earlier.

    Which is why I can't wait to see what Pentax or Sony come up with as options in MF.
    Too much to list, let's just say I have a bad case of GAS.........
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