Hasselblad X1D

[GrahamWelland]

Well perhaps it's worth considering the relative costs one of the last times a similar HasselFuji produced a camera that required MF lenses (albeit manual focus) with the XPan. Way back in 2005 the body was $1800, the 45mm $550, 90mm $660 and the 30mm ... $2750. :shocked:

Anyway, just a thought. I realize that these are different systems but I've yet to run into a super wide that wasn't a LOT more expensive than normal focal lengths. (I can also relate to how much my Alpa SK 24mm and Alpa Rodie 23HR lenses cost too compared to more mortal focal lengths, well at least before the Rodie 32HR & 90HRSW came along).

Seems a bit over the top to be cautionary about affordability when you're talking $9000 and up bodies and $4000 to $12,000 lenses ... !

G

Heck, we all have budgets. My lottery retirement plan hasn't worked out quite yet and I guess I've never had the desire to participate in true white collar crime. I guess that I should have kept chasing startups or working in the City after all. :ROTFL:

 

[Godfrey]

What's an XF 24mm? ...

Of course I meant the HCD. Etc. Thank you for correcting my errors.

But it's no matter really, not my point. My point is that posting a cautionary based on affordability when we're talking about what is all, essentially, stratospherically-priced camera equipment in the first place seems a bit over the top.

G

 

[Godfrey]

Well perhaps it's worth considering the relative costs one of the last times a similar HasselFuji produced a camera that required MF lenses (albeit manual focus) with the XPan. Way back in 2005 the body was $1800, the 45mm $550, 90mm $660 and the 30mm ... $2750. :shocked:

Anyway, just a thought. I realize that these are different systems but I've yet to run into a super wide that wasn't a LOT more expensive than normal focal lengths. (I can also relate to how much my Alpa SK 24mm and Alpa Rodie 23HR lenses cost too compared to more mortal focal lengths, well at least before the Rodie 32HR & 90HRSW came along).

Heck, we all have budgets. My lottery retirement plan hasn't worked out quite yet and I guess I've never had the desire to participate in true white collar crime. I guess that I should have kept chasing startups or working in the City after all. :ROTFL:

My retirement plan has been set based on the notion of buying all the hyper-expensive gear I wanted to work with while in retirement BEFORE I retire, and after I retire selling it off piece by piece at inflated collectible pricing to the still-working "if only I had one of those I'd be HCB!" crowd in order to pay my rent... I don't really want to own it, I just want to use it.

I'll let you know how that works out after I retire. :toocool:

G

 

[algrove]

What's an XF 24mm? The only "24"'s I was aware of in MF were the Hasselblad HCD 24mm, Leica S 24mm, the Pentax 25mm, and the Rodenstock 23mm. There's also the not-as wide P1/Mamiya 28mm/28mm LS and Pentax 28-45mm.

B&H currently has the "old" 24mm Hasselblad HCD 24mm (1/800th shutter) for $6k (they had a used one for $4500 for awhile which has been sold), the newer one with 1/2000th sync is a little over $7k. The Leica S is ~$8800 at B&H, as is the Rodenstock (without lens mount). Pentax discontinued the 25mm AFAIK but a couple used copies have popped up lately for ~$4k. (all prices USD).

The currently announced XCD lenses for the X1D are $2295 and $2695, pretty far off from the $3500-4000 range cited above. Affordability is relative and subjective obviously. As ultra-wides tend to be more expensive than their other WA counterparts, I'd expect the price of a <30mm XCD to be somewhere between the current XCD lenses but less than the current 1/800th shutter 24mm HCD, which is currently the cheapest currently-available MF ultra-wide (AFAIK - ignoring the Pentax 28-45mm @ $5k new) - this would make it more expensive than the current offerings while still being affordable compared to it's other ultra-wide counterparts. Perhaps sticker shock for those entering MF but "cheap" for those with IQ3 100mp/rodenstock tech combos or other existing MF setups. I'm hoping that pricing of future XCD lenses stays in line with the current 45mm and 90mm prices, although I expect an ultra-wide and zooms to cost more.

Keep in mind we are discussing various formats that have differing 35 equivalencies.

For example--a 28mm lens ($6k) for the XF+100 is about 62% for 35 equivalent (or 17mm), but for the old V lenses if I recall it was 80% for 35 equivalency and about the same 80% for the Pentax 645Z lenses making the 25mm ($5k new) about a 20mm in 35 equivalent terms.

I have not checked on the X1D equivalency for lenses, but it must be around the same as the Pentax 645Z.

 

[GrahamWelland]

I have not checked on the X1D equivalency for lenses, but it must be around the same as the Pentax 645Z.

It is exactly the same as the 645Z or IQx50 or IQ140 etc etc. A 44x33mm sensor is a 44x33mm sensor regardless of body. (Can't speak to the Hasselblad equivalents but it's still the same).

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Graham,

Not that I have tested, but both the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII and the 17/4 TSE are quite workable on MFD sensors, actually covering the IQ-180. The 11-24/4L has also been tested with a 44x33 back. Using Canon lenses on the HCam B1 was the essential idea behind that camera and the same applies in part to the Alpa FPS, AFAIK.

But, you cannot put any of those lenses on the X1D as it lacks a camera shutter.

On the other hand, Hasselblad is always thinking out of the box and they may produce a T&S adapter for the H-lenses.

Best regards
Erik

I'm all for a super wide but some folks might be sticker shocked by what it takes to produce such a MF lens. The list of affordable 23/24mm medium format digital lenses can be counted on ... Err ... Zero fingers

 

[tcdeveau]

Keep in mind we are discussing various formats that have differing 35 equivalencies.

For example--a 28mm lens ($6k) for the XF+100 is about 62% for 35 equivalent (or 17mm), but for the old V lenses if I recall it was 80% for 35 equivalency and about the same 80% for the Pentax 645Z lenses making the 25mm ($5k new) about a 20mm in 35 equivalent terms.

I have not checked on the X1D equivalency for lenses, but it must be around the same as the Pentax 645Z.

You're right, I should've been clearer about format. I was only thinking of the 33x44mm format or the Leica S format. The Hasselblad HCD wides (24mm, 28mm) are not designed for a larger FF sensor like the new 40mm x 53.4mm 100mp sensor anyway, nor is the Pentax 25mm (I could be wrong about the Pentax).

As Graham said, both the X1D and 645z have a 33x44mm sensor, so lens equivalency is identical.

 

[tcdeveau]

Hi Graham,

Not that I have tested, but both the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII and the 17/4 TSE are quite workable on MFD sensors, actually covering the IQ-180. The 11-24/4L has also been tested with a 44x33 back. Using Canon lenses on the HCam B1 was the essential idea behind that camera and the same applies in part to the Alpa FPS, AFAIK.

But, you cannot put any of those lenses on the X1D as it lacks a camera shutter.

On the other hand, Hasselblad is always thinking out of the box and they may produce a T&S adapter for the H-lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Hasselblad already has a T&S adaptor for the H-lenses - the HTS 1.5. Use on the X1D would require the H=>X adaptor. From what I've read, Hasselbad hopes the HTS 1.5 will be fully compatible with the X1D, ut I think they're still testing it out and haven't officially confirmed full compatibility. I am hoping they put out a native X T&S adaptor for the XCD lenses as well as an ultrawide though.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The key word is 1.5, meaning 1.5X extension which needs to be multiplied by the crop factor of sensor (1.3X). Turns a 24 mm lens into a 47 mm lens.

Hasselblad could build a XTS 1, taking H-series lenses without extension. Hasselblad, they are smart, they will do something like that…

Best regards
Erik

Hasselblad already has a T&S adaptor for the H-lenses - the HTS 1.5. Use on the X1D would require the H=>X adaptor. From what I've read, Hasselbad hopes the HTS 1.5 will be fully compatible with the X1D, ut I think they're still testing it out and haven't officially confirmed full compatibility. I am hoping they put out a native X T&S adaptor for the XCD lenses as well as an ultrawide though.

 

[SrMphoto]

Hi,

The key word is 1.5, meaning 1.5X extension which needs to be multiplied by the crop factor of sensor (1.3X). Turns a 24 mm lens into a 47 mm lens.

..

I do not understand in what situation the 24mm can turn into a 47mm.

On X1D Hasselblad's 24mm is approximately equivalent to a 19mm "full-frame" lens, with HTS it is comparable to a 29mm in "full-frame".

 

[tcdeveau]

I do not understand in what situation the 24mm can turn into a 47mm.

On X1D Hasselblad's 24mm is approximately equivalent to a 19mm "full-frame" lens, with HTS it is comparable to a 29mm in "full-frame".

Erik's math relates to full-frame medium format, a ~40x54mm sensor, where you are doing calculations relating to 35mm full frame (24x36mm sensor). A 24mm with the HTS 1.5 on a 33x44mm "cropped" sensor MF will act like a 47mm on a 40x54mm full frame medium format camera because of the crop factor of the HTS and the crop factor of the 33x44mm sensor relative to a 40x54mm sensor.

I'd also like to see an HTS without the 1.5 multiplication factor. I imagine it's possible to do. Current HCD wides (24, 28mm) are designed for 37x49mm max sensors, so there should be a large enough image circle to allow some movements on a 33x44mm sensor (which seems to be the future of the X series bodies) without the 1.5x magnification. I would imagine movements without the magnification factor say on a HTS 1 would be more restricted than those on an HTS 1.5 though, as it my understanding the purpose of the magnification factor of the HTS 1.5 is to effectively enlarge the image circle and allow for greater range of movements.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Thanks!

Well explained!

Erik

Erik's math relates to full-frame medium format, a ~40x54mm sensor, where you are doing calculations relating to 35mm full frame (24x36mm sensor). A 24mm with the HTS 1.5 on a 33x44mm "cropped" sensor MF will act like a 47mm on a 40x54mm full frame medium format camera because of the crop factor of the HTS and the crop factor of the 33x44mm sensor relative to a 40x54mm sensor.

I'd also like to see an HTS without the 1.5 multiplication factor. I imagine it's possible to do. Current HCD wides (24, 28mm) are designed for 37x49mm max sensors, so there should be a large enough image circle to allow some movements on a 33x44mm sensor (which seems to be the future of the X series bodies) without the 1.5x magnification. I would imagine movements without the magnification factor say on a HTS 1 would be more restricted than those on an HTS 1.5 though, as it my understanding the purpose of the magnification factor of the HTS 1.5 is to effectively enlarge the image circle and allow for greater range of movements.

 

[bab]

Hi,

The key word is 1.5, meaning 1.5X extension which needs to be multiplied by the crop factor of sensor (1.3X). Turns a 24 mm lens into a 47 mm lens.

Hasselblad could build a XTS 1, taking H-series lenses without extension. Hasselblad, they are smart, they will do something like that…

Best regards
Erik

Hopefuly a new HTS could be backwards compatible the 1.5x is the Achilles heal for the system. The HTS is perfect for stiching and I find my tilt is usually only 1.5 degrees so personally I would prefer Hasselblad added to the firmware intergrated step focusing and left the HTS 1.5 alone, that would give us the ability to stack and shift. The truth is Basel University already has the step focusing project finished they did it for CAP Cam I have written Hasselblad about this many times.

On another note as your aware Hasselblad seems to need lots of firmware tweeks, all three new cameras are missing significant features at this moment just to be on par with the H5D-50C. Time and money will certainly overcome the issues hopefully money flows and by the end of August or September some issues are addressed.

My order for the H6D was supposed to be shipped two weeks ago still no ETA as of today.

 

[hcubell]

I thought about many of the comments about the X1D and how this or that missing feature is a "deal breaker" when I read this column.
http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com.au/2016/07/the-meh-factor-or-why-x-is-deal-killer.html

 

[SrMphoto]

Erik's math relates to full-frame medium format, a ~40x54mm sensor, where you are doing calculations relating to 35mm full frame (24x36mm sensor). A 24mm with the HTS 1.5 on a 33x44mm "cropped" sensor MF will act like a 47mm on a 40x54mm full frame medium format camera because of the crop factor of the HTS and the crop factor of the 33x44mm sensor relative to a 40x54mm sensor.

Thanks for explanation.

Since HCD 24mm covers a sensor size of 37x49mm, the crop ratio (without HTS) would be rather 1.1 only, wouldn't it?

 

[PeterA]

I thought about many of the comments about the X1D and how this or that missing feature is a "deal breaker" when I read this column.
http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com.au/2016/07/the-meh-factor-or-why-x-is-deal-killer.html

So well expressed mate - such a pleasure to read some intelligent prose and thoughtfulness - I've bookmarked your blog:clap:

It seems trolling has become an art form for some in itself.

 

[tcdeveau]

Thanks for explanation.

Since HCD 24mm covers a sensor size of 37x49mm, the crop ratio (without HTS) would be rather 1.1 only, wouldn't it?

Not by itself. By itself, the lens is a 24mm and has no crop factor. The image circle/area of coverage is independent from the crop factor, and the crop factor is dependent on the size of the imaging device (sensor/film) behind the lens. Relative to full frame medium format (~40x54mm), the 24mm HCD (or any other lens) would have a crop factor of about 1.3 on a camera/back/whatever with a 33x44mm sensor and about 1.1 only if used on a camera/with a 37x49mm sensor. There are cameras still out there that use 37x49mm sensors (the H4D/H5D-50 CCD example), but the format is largely ignored now as the shift has been from CCD to CMOS, and medium format CMOS sensors (only made by Sony) are only made in 33x44mp (50mp variety) and 40x54mm (100mp variety) sizes.

On an X1D, the 24mm HCD (which would have to be used in conjunction with the h->x adaptor) would have a 1.3x crop factor relative to full frame medium format.

Some of my statements could be inaccurate so someone can feel free to correct me if so
-Todd

 

[GrahamWelland]

I thought about many of the comments about the X1D and how this or that missing feature is a "deal breaker" when I read this column.
The Visual Science Lab / Kirk Tuck: The "Meh" factor. Or why X is a "deal killer for me."

Meh. Whatever.

Just kidding. Excellent stuff and I agree. :thumbup:

I don't quite understand how so many people expect a product that has been so deliberately designed to produce a certain outcome, as in a lighter weight MF quality product with leaf shutter lenses and smaller form factor vs a hybrid FrankenCamera. No it doesn't have a FPS nor adapters for your favorite Leica glass either. But as a small factor 50mp MF camera that so many of us have wanted for a long time I have to congratulate Hasselblad and I hope that they don't make the mistake of making the compromises required to add a FPS to the next version. I'm happy enough to invest in the HCD lenses so long as they perform as well as we hope.

/rant off

 

[hcubell]

And now, for the man who has everything, we see the first fruits of the collaboration between Hasselblad and DJI: http://www.hasselblad.com/special-applications/a5d-m600-bundle.
Surprising that they didn't use the X1D for this, but it probably wasn't ready at the time they started working on it with DJI.

 

[Vivek]

And now, for the man who has everything, we see the first fruits of the collaboration between Hasselblad and DJI: HasselbladÂ*A5D & DJI Matrice 600 Bundle.
Surprising that they didn't use the X1D for this, but it probably wasn't ready at the time they started working on it with DJI.

:thumbs:

Good!

You don't have to hitch a ride on a plane or a helicopter to do aerial photography anymore.