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Thread: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

  1. #51
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Thank you Victor.

    A few uneducated comments about all this. I think there are at least one and probably two things I did differently in my test that diverge from Yunli’s instructions and the images he included in the first post.

    First, based on Doug’s comment about the back using the dark frame from the initial capture, I took the first shot at a shutter speed that was the same order of magnitude as I planned for the test images. I did not simply take a 1/60 sec frame once in Aerial mode. Don’t know how much this matters, but (as Miska posted) it seems to me the prudent thing to do. By the way, at 100% I do see stuck pixels in the Aerial-mode shots, so I’m pretty sure I did all this correctly.

    Second, it appears to me that the images in Yunli’s first post are dramatically pushed. Both shadows and the image overall. Mine are not. If anything mine are a tiny bit overexposed. On the hottest image, RD shows 0.2% pixels overexposed in the green channel. Not bad if I may say so myself, but I think very different from the images in Yunli’s first post. Yunli, if you have access to the original images, could you please post what they looked like without any post processing?

    The third, obvious thing I did differently was I used my DB, not the one in question. So of course this could be a problem with that back.

    Here’s the thing (and I’m going way in the weeds here). All this could be because somewhere in the pipeline, very dark areas get a magenta twist when there is a very long exposure. I could continue to investigate some things to figure out which of the above is the issue, but it just takes too long and I don’t really see a benefit. What I mean is, we might have a situation where under very long exposures, and the photographer turns off LENR(maybe/maybe not), and then the subsequent image is pushed dramatically because it is underexposed, the shadows look bad.

    Well, if I had an image that was underexposed, I would kick myself and do it right the next time. But I get that some people thrive on these types of images and rely in the ability to do this type of processing. Not me though. I think I’ve shown that a properly-exposed shot is fine out to at least 15-20 minutes, regardless of whether you use Aerial mode or not. That was really all I was interested in. I did learn some things so I am happy for that!

    Dave

    Note: I sent Yunli my three raw files. If anyone else wants to see them pm me and I will send you the link.
    Last edited by dchew; 8th July 2016 at 12:42.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Dave

    It seems that in your test you did:
    1. a short exposure,
    2. a long exposure, normal mode (no dark frame?),
    3. a long exposure, Aerial mode.

    However your plan was:
    "1. Shoot a dark-ish room @ f/5.6, 30 sec, std mode normal latency. Change to Aerial mode, zero latency
    2. Take another shot @ f/32, 16 min.
    3. Take another shot @ f/32, 16 min."

    My understanding of Doug Peterson's post, was that his hypothesis was that the (automatically generated) dark frame from the first, short exposure, was being used, inappropriately, on the subsequent Aerial mode exposure(s). I think that your stated plan would have tested this, but I am not sure if that is what you did.

    Note: on re-reading Doug's post, it says "forcing the back to reuse the dark frame made in the first capture executed after enabling the aerial mode", emphasis added. I wouldn't have thought that dark frames were made in Aerial mode? I (mis?)understood it as 'reuse the dark frame made in the last capture executed before enabling Aerial mode'. Perhaps a short, normal exposure after the Aerial mode shot needs to be added to the test? Or another test with a short, normal exposure in Aerial mode, before the long exposure?

    Plainly I am confused.

    Ross

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I should have expanded as to how I took my LE shots. I simply turned the camera on and shot the first exposure at 'Normal' mode for 15 minutes - it just happened to be a tad over exposed. I then put the back in Arial mode and shot the second image but with a slightly smaller F stop to compensate for the overexposure but also at 15ish minutes. My back is always set to '0' latency.

    Hope this clarifies things...... Just happy I didn't see any RED!

    Victor

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Dave, thanks for the raw files! I have looked into them and there is no problem at all. It appears that a darkframe test shot alone isn't sufficient to conclude any problem. It seems that you could use your back without worrying about anything for now.

    My current guess is that if there are parts of the image close to overexposure then C1 and the firmware can properly white balance the shadow as well. It may work in other way but I need to do more tests myself and figure out how to reproduce this.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I should have expanded as to how I took my LE shots. I simply turned the camera on and shot the first exposure at 'Normal' mode for 15 minutes - it just happened to be a tad over exposed. I then put the back in Arial mode and shot the second image but with a slightly smaller F stop to compensate for the overexposure but also at 15ish minutes. My back is always set to '0' latency.

    Hope this clarifies things...... Just happy I didn't see any RED!

    Victor
    Thanks for the tests Victor!

    I'm curious what would happen if you underexpose both images

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Thank you Victor.

    The third, obvious thing I did differently was I used my DB, not the one in question. So of course this could be a problem with that back.


    I think Iíve shown that a properly-exposed shot is fine out to at least 15-20 minutes, regardless of whether you use Aerial mode or not. That was really all I was interested in. I did learn some things so I am happy for that!
    You are dead right that this is an issue with someone else's back and not yours or mine..... a very good thing.

    You are also right that a properly exposed shot is fine out to at least 15 to 20 minutes. This is not stuff I normally do so its a moot point for me but I did want to establish that my IQ3-100 doesn't exhibit those issues and to post my results.

    Victor

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Thanks to everyone who participated!

    To make it less confusing, I sum up all current observations:

    Digital back Firmware Darkframe with LENR Darkframe without LENR Underexposed lightframe with LENR Underexposed lightframe without LENR Lightframe with LENR Lightframe without LENR
    Demo unit 3.05.1 ? Red cast ? ? ? ?
    Jazz's 4.01.2 ? Red cast Red cast in shadow Red cast in shadow ? ?
    Dave's 4.01.2 ? Red cast ? ? Normal Normal
    Victor's ? ? ? ? ? Normal Normal
    IQ250 1.05.1 ? Normal ? Normal ? Normal

    Hopefully more tests can shed some light.

  8. #58
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Ross,
    I apologize for the confusion.

    Here is what I did:

    1. A short exposure in std mode (w/dark frame). This was just for reference.

    2. Switch to Aerial mode and take a long ~15 min exposure. Since this is the first exposure after switching, it does a dark frame on this shot. Per Doug, this dark frame will be used for all subsequent photos while in Aerial mode.

    3. Take another, identical ~15 min exposure, but this one will not have its own dark frame.

    I did not test for what happens if you take a short exposure and try to use that dark frame for a long exposure. I don't see why someone would do that. Presumably a photographer knows when she/he is going to do long exposures, so in preparation, with the knowledge that the first dark frame in Aerial mode will be used for all subsequent shots, the photographer would take a "typical" long exposure frame as the first frame so a roughly relevant dark frame would be used. This is one of the things I learned (thanks Doug!). If I ever go out shooting long exposures, and don't want to wait for a dark frame, then my first image in Aerial mode will be a long exposure. I could do that while driving to the site!

    Remember though, when I did the first lens cap shot (manual dark frame), I did not go through the above process. So my initial black lens cap shot I posted and discussed did not have a long-exposure dark frame created when switching to Aerial mode. It had a relatively short dark frame exposure, about 10 sec if I remember right.

    Boy you're right; this is confusing.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    Dave

    It seems that in your test you did:
    1. a short exposure,
    2. a long exposure, normal mode (no dark frame?),
    3. a long exposure, Aerial mode.

    However your plan was:
    "1. Shoot a dark-ish room @ f/5.6, 30 sec, std mode normal latency. Change to Aerial mode, zero latency
    2. Take another shot @ f/32, 16 min.
    3. Take another shot @ f/32, 16 min."

    My understanding of Doug Peterson's post, was that his hypothesis was that the (automatically generated) dark frame from the first, short exposure, was being used, inappropriately, on the subsequent Aerial mode exposure(s). I think that your stated plan would have tested this, but I am not sure if that is what you did.

    Note: on re-reading Doug's post, it says "forcing the back to reuse the dark frame made in the first capture executed after enabling the aerial mode", emphasis added. I wouldn't have thought that dark frames were made in Aerial mode? I (mis?)understood it as 'reuse the dark frame made in the last capture executed before enabling Aerial mode'. Perhaps a short, normal exposure after the Aerial mode shot needs to be added to the test? Or another test with a short, normal exposure in Aerial mode, before the long exposure?

    Plainly I am confused.

    Ross

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    Member Arjuna's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Dave

    Thanks. That makes more sense.

    Ross

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Hopefully more tests can shed some light.
    Now that's just darn funny.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I did not test for what happens if you take a short exposure and try to use that dark frame for a long exposure. I don't see why someone would do that. Presumably a photographer knows when she/he is going to do long exposures, so in preparation, with the knowledge that the first dark frame in Aerial mode will be used for all subsequent shots, the photographer would take a "typical" long exposure frame as the first frame so a roughly relevant dark frame would be used. This is one of the things I learned (thanks Doug!). If I ever go out shooting long exposures, and don't want to wait for a dark frame, then my first image in Aerial mode will be a long exposure. I could do that while driving to the site!

    Dave
    I can't agree with this

    Having the flexibility to choose different exposure times ranging between 2~16 minutes is an essential function for a CMOS back. Cloud can move at different speeds, and light condition changes over time during sunrise/sunset, not to mention the battery and heat restrictions. If the IQ3 100MP doesn't support this while the IQ250 and the other smaller sensors can then it's gonna be a huge draw back for me. I have never shot preliminary darkframes with the IQ250/D810A/D800E before.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Now that's just darn funny.
    If you have time please test the underexposed lightframes and help me fill in the table! But I'll test that with another demo unit in about a week anyway.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    I can't agree with this

    Having the flexibility to choose different exposure times ranging between 2~16 minutes is an essential function for a CMOS back. Cloud can move at different speeds, and light condition changes over time during sunrise/sunset, not to mention the battery and heat restrictions. If the IQ3 100MP doesn't support this while the IQ250 and the other smaller sensors can then it's gonna be a huge draw back for me. I have never shot preliminary darkframes with the IQ250/D810A/D800E before.

    If you have time please test the underexposed lightframes and help me fill in the table! But I'll test that with another demo unit in about a week anyway.
    Could you please show us a real life image? It would be interesting to see the photography series or project you are working on. Just to be clear, it involves extreme under exposure, shooting in aerial mode and lifting the shadows 100% in capture one?

    Thank you,
    Jeffery
    Jeffery Salter
    www.jefferysalter.com

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Quick note... what you are doing is not technically "disabling" the dark frame. You are forcing the back to reuse the dark frame made in the first capture executed after enabling the aerial mode.
    One note on this. What actually happens with my back (4.01.2) is: Turn on the back, go to Aerial / zero latency mode. First frame takes a dark frame, subsequent frames do not. But if instead I turn on the back in "normal" mode, shoot a frame, switch to Aerial / zero latency mode without cycling power, then shoot a frame, there will be no dark frame in that first Aerial-mode capture. If I turn the back off with it in Aerial mode then turn it back on, the first frame taken after cycling power will take another dark frame.

    This was giving me fits yesterday because it would sometimes take a dark frame when I had not switched back and forth from Aerial mode. It was because I had cycled power when removing the CF card.

    So switching to Aerial mode is not what triggers that first dark frame. It is instead cycling power on the back. If you have the back turned on and shoot a frame in normal mode, then switch to Aerial mode and take another frame without cycling power, there will be no dark frame on that first "Aerial" capture.

    A better way to describe how this works: When in Aerial mode / zero latency, the back will not shoot a dark frame unless it is the first capture executed after cycling power.

    Dave
    Last edited by dchew; 9th July 2016 at 03:17.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffery Salter View Post
    Could you please show us a real life image? It would be interesting to see the photography series or project you are working on. Just to be clear, it involves extreme under exposure, shooting in aerial mode and lifting the shadows 100% in capture one?

    Thank you,
    Jeffery
    I have posted many, again and again. For example, this was a picture I made for a photography magazine cover:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	71-2.jpg 
Views:	33 
Size:	281.6 KB 
ID:	119687

    Why under exposure and lifting the shadows 100%: It is required to protect the highlight details.

    Why aerial mode: the flexibility to shoot a series of long exposure images without any breaks is essential to maximize success chance throughout a limited time window e.g. sunset/sunrise (and doubles success chance compared against those requiring darkframe NR countdown).

    Backlight long exposure is my favorite because it stresses sensor most and is not easy for ordinary sensors and hence not easy to shoot. You could follow my pictures at https://500px.com/voidshatter

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    But Yunli, that's not a 20 min exposure.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    But Yunli, that's not a 20 min exposure.

    Dave
    I should explain myself... I see the need to push shadows dramatically in a high DR image like you post. I also understand the need to take 20 min exposures, both for cloud movement and for astro. But I struggle with the need for both together.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Firmware for my back is 4.01.2.

    Victor

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    But Yunli, that's not a 20 min exposure.

    Dave
    8 minutes: https://500px.com/photo/152480667/

    7 minutes: https://500px.com/photo/103108753/ (but no need to push shadow in this one)

    8 minutes of stacking: https://500px.com/photo/92579427/ (so it was not possible to allow darkframe NR countdowns)

    10 minutes: https://500px.com/photo/79511091/ (dynamic range of CCD is not so good when compared against D800E etc)

    2 hours of suntrail: https://500px.com/photo/67886275/ (published in another photography magazine)

    2.5 hours of suntrail: https://masterv.tuchong.com/6920849/ (taken by one of my friends)

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I should explain myself... I see the need to push shadows dramatically in a high DR image like you post. I also understand the need to take 20 min exposures, both for cloud movement and for astro. But I struggle with the need for both together.
    I have received another update from my friend - even if he properly expose his shots he still gets the red cast. This means

    a) Your red darkframe and the demo unit's red darkframe do not necessarily mean these two copies of IQ3 100MP would get caught by red cast for real-world images;

    b) It is unknown whether these two copies of IQ3 100MP would get caught by red cast for underexposed images but for now I don't think they will;

    c) It is highly likely that the red darkframe is not associated with my friend's red cast images, and that his back alone is caught by the red cast images.

    I'll find this out next week when I have access to another demo unit

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    I have posted many, again and again. For example, this was a picture I made for a photography magazine cover:
    Thank you Void. Good luck with your project. I'm not sure if and when I will utilize your way of shooting, but it's always nice to have an extra tool in the visual kit.

    Jeffery
    Jeffery Salter
    www.jefferysalter.com

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    45 min. SOOC



    and a 100% crop:
    Last edited by dchew; 9th July 2016 at 16:04.
    davechewphotography.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    45 min. SOOC

    and a 100% crop:
    This picture IS LOOK very sharp

    I can steal by cropping out the pictures inside this picture (the forest covered by snow in the frame in the top left corner) to make money

    (I'm just kidding)

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    This picture IS LOOK very sharp

    I can steal by cropping out the pictures inside this picture (the forest covered by snow in the frame in the top left corner) to make money

    (I'm just kidding)
    That's my brother's back yard in Alaska.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Underexposed 3-4 stops, 12min:


    Same image pushed 4 stops:

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    8 minutes: https://500px.com/photo/152480667/

    7 minutes: https://500px.com/photo/103108753/ (but no need to push shadow in this one)

    8 minutes of stacking: https://500px.com/photo/92579427/ (so it was not possible to allow darkframe NR countdowns)

    10 minutes: https://500px.com/photo/79511091/ (dynamic range of CCD is not so good when compared against D800E etc)

    2 hours of suntrail: https://500px.com/photo/67886275/ (published in another photography magazine)

    2.5 hours of suntrail: https://masterv.tuchong.com/6920849/ (taken by one of my friends)
    Yunli, Thanks for posting these links, the pictures are indeed very nice.

    I am intrigued by the method you describe in the second image (60 shots in rapid succession). How do you adjust for the movement of the sun in this time period? Even at 8 second duration, it takes almost 8 minutes to complete the shoot during which the sun would move significantly. Do you mask it out and only stack the shadows? If you do that, as the sun moves, the shadows too would move, as would the reflections on the water.

    Thanks in advance.
    Too much to list, let's just say I have a bad case of GAS.........

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    I have received another update from my friend - even if he properly expose his shots he still gets the red cast. This means

    a) Your red darkframe and the demo unit's red darkframe do not necessarily mean these two copies of IQ3 100MP would get caught by red cast for real-world images;

    b) It is unknown whether these two copies of IQ3 100MP would get caught by red cast for underexposed images but for now I don't think they will;

    c) It is highly likely that the red darkframe is not associated with my friend's red cast images, and that his back alone is caught by the red cast images.

    I'll find this out next week when I have access to another demo unit
    Definitely sounds like it's time for your friend to submit Raws to a support case through their dealer. They can help you/him troubleshoot to find the variable responsible.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Yes and before doing that I still would like to see a XF/DF image from that back. As my guess is still rech camera problem.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    How do you adjust for the movement of the sun in this time period? Even at 8 second duration, it takes almost 8 minutes to complete the shoot during which the sun would move significantly. Do you mask it out and only stack the shadows? If you do that, as the sun moves, the shadows too would move, as would the reflections on the water.
    Hi, I did not specifically process the sun. 8 minutes are not long enough to leave an obvious sun trail. With the basic stacking the overexposed regions may get averaged down by other frames in which the same region was not overexposed.

    Indeed if this stacking method is used to shoot a sun trail then luminosity masks are required for each frame to make sure the sun trail does not get averaged down. Apperantly a camera with compulsory darkframe NR will not be suitable for this kind of job.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Definitely sounds like it's time for your friend to submit Raws to a support case through their dealer. They can help you/him troubleshoot to find the variable responsible.
    Not yet Doug. I have just received more feedback from my friend, as well as from Dave. It may be more complicated than we thought. Further tests may swing this and it's probably gonna be Phase One's responsibility to fix it for perhaps more than one IQ3 100MPs. I'm still in the process of collecting as much data as possible and trying to get some consistent results for Phase One to reproduce this problem reliably, and hence results from multiple users can be very helpful to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Yes and before doing that I still would like to see a XF/DF image from that back. As my guess is still rech camera problem.
    Yes I have requested an XF+ body for demo as well. I'm still waiting for response from my dealer. Just be patient please

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I still only see "one" MFDB that needs attention from the selling dealer and/or the mothership in Denmark.

    While I appreciate your tenacity and persistence, I see this exercise more as a solution looking for a problem rather than the other way around. There simply are far too many open and unaddressed variables to make blanket assertions or "hasty generalizations" that Phase One will need to make a broad based IQ3 100MP effort to address the issue, if there is one at all.

    Rather than depend on a rather unreliable chain of files with unknown variables, it seems pretty evident that if there is an issue, it is incumbent upon your friend to contact a dealer and/or send his MFDB back to Denmark to investigate, replicate the problem, and make the necessary repairs----rather than rely on the sporadic though well-intentioned experiences of a relatively small community of IQ3 100MP owners/users in the GetDPI family.

    Ken

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Update:

    This is another demo unit I have just received today (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2, and it is not the same demo unit I tested 6 months ago (SN: IG01109? which used to produce the red darkframe).

    It's so easy to reproduce the red cast issue:

    a) Power on and couple with 23mm HR with center filter without shift;
    b) Set camera mode to aerial and zero latency;
    c) Shoot an image at 1/60s;
    d) Shoot LCC;
    e) Shoot an image at 1/8s without ND filter;
    f) Shoot an image at 2min with Singh-Ray 10-stop Mor-Slo (95mm thin ring);
    g) Shoot an image at 30min with Singh-Ray 15-stop Mor-Slo (95mm thin ring). Bang!

    Conclusion: This is not a problem with a specific unit. It could be a problem with a batch of units.

    My friend almost sent his unit back to Phase One since no one at this forum admits this problem. Now he knows he's not alone and he no longer needs to send his unit back

    I'll update with more test results later (e.g. other lenses, with XF+ body etc).

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    Last edited by voidshatter; 15th July 2016 at 03:46.

  31. #81
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    For case and control purposes, here is another test with an IQ250, with exactly the same test conditions as the IQ3 100MP above:

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  32. #82
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    voidshatter,

    Shoot an image at 30min with Singh-Ray 15-stop Mor-Slo (95mm thin ring). Bang!
    Perhaps the adverse effect is related to infrared light, given the strength of ND filter in conjunction with long exposure.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by AreBee View Post
    voidshatter,



    Perhaps the adverse effect is related to infrared light, given the strength of ND filter in conjunction with long exposure.
    a) My friend also gets the red cast with Schneider IRND;

    b) Four units get a red darkframe with the lens cap on, and I don't think the lens cap has anything to do with infrared light;

    c) The IQ250 works fine under the same conditions.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Update:

    Another test setup:

    a) Power on and couple with 40mm HR without shift;
    b) Set camera mode to aerial and zero latency;
    c) Shoot an image at 1/60s;
    d) Shoot LCC;
    e) Shoot an image at 1/15s without ND filter;
    f) Shoot an image at 2min with Lee Big Stopper (100mm x 100mm square);
    g) Shoot an image at 30min with Singh-Ray 15-stop Mor-Slo (100mm x 100mm square). Bang!

    IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

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    And again with an IQ250 with the same setup above for comparison:

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  35. #85
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I'm now playing with the XF+ body. As a first time user I still need to read the manual I'll try to catch the light with the same conditions before the sun goes down.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I don't have a dog in this fight. Never done long exposures beyond 5 minutes or so.

    Just wondering, is there a particular time cut off where the red cast appears? Would you be able to take exposures at say 5 minute intervals to see exactly how long it takes? Just curious, it may be to do with the sensor heating up and causing the problem after a certain length of time.
    Too much to list, let's just say I have a bad case of GAS.........

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I have gone to 16 minutes plus 16 of black frame with no problems. What is the big deal here, just turn off aerial and bit the bullet of double time like most photograhers do.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight. Never done long exposures beyond 5 minutes or so.

    Just wondering, is there a particular time cut off where the red cast appears? Would you be able to take exposures at say 5 minute intervals to see exactly how long it takes? Just curious, it may be to do with the sensor heating up and causing the problem after a certain length of time.
    Sure I'll add that to my test list

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I have gone to 16 minutes plus 16 of black frame with no problems. What is the big deal here, just turn off aerial and bit the bullet of double time like most photograhers do.
    The big deal is that you miss opportunities in real world usage e.g. sunset/sunrise. You also get only half the success chance of the IQ250/D810 etc. You also have half effective battery life. Shooting darkframe in 2016 really? No thanks, not for an expensive camera like this.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Is there some reason that this conversation isn't with Phase?

    I once had a problem with my IQ 260. I called the dealer.
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Is there some reason that this conversation isn't with Phase?

    I once had a problem with my IQ 260. I called the dealer.
    It would take several weeks if a unit is sent back to Phase One. If we can isolate the problem and let Phase One reproduce it with their own units then it saves us time sending our units to Phase One. Also it would be helpful to make the public aware of the issue so that Phase One can deal with it actively. The down side is that the current owners will not be happy with it.

    The IQ260 had the corner issues during long exposure. Did you dealer resolve it for you? I doubt it. I'll put my money in it that even if you sent your IQ260 back to Phase One they could not fix it for you.

  41. #91
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Yunli,
    Would you please provide a screen shot for us of the image with the red cast (CF006566) as it came out of the camera with no adjustments? I'm trying to compare it with my results.

    Thank you,
    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Yunli,
    Would you please provide a screen shot for us of the image with the red cast (CF006566) as it came out of the camera with no adjustments? I'm trying to compare it with my results.

    Thank you,
    Dave
    IQ3 100MP aerial mode + zero latency + not first image since power on + 30min long exposure + without any adjustment (and without LCC) straight out of the camera:

    Left: 23HR; Right: 40HR

    Click image for larger version. 

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  43. #93
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Also, as has been previously discussed, you are forcing the back to use a 1/60 sec dark frame for a long exposure. Please try taking an initial exposure of relevant exposure time. Knowing how the back uses the dark frame that would make a lot of sense, and would not create "missed opportunity" issues in the field.

    Dave

  44. #94
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    IQ3 100MP aerial mode + zero latency + not first image since power on + 30min long exposure + without any adjustment (and without LCC) straight out of the camera:

    Left: 23HR; Right: 40HR
    Thank you. That makes more sense especially since you are using a very short exposure dark frame.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Also, as has been previously discussed, you are forcing the back to use a 1/60 sec dark frame for a long exposure. Please try taking an initial exposure of relevant exposure time. Knowing how the back uses the dark frame that would make a lot of sense, and would not create "missed opportunity" issues in the field.

    Dave
    Sure I'll add that to my test list.

    Yes it could miss opportunity because if you shoot a preliminary darkframe beforehand, you may run into the following issues:

    a) The cloud is moving faster / slower than you expected and you need to shorten / lengthen your exposure time and that is then different from your preliminary darkframe;

    b) The glow of the sunset / sunrise comes sooner / later than you expect and then you have to terminate the preliminary darkframe / keep your camera on to waste extra battery life as well as accumulating extra heat;

    c) Swapping battery in the field means game over.

    There is no good excuse when the IQ250 and the D810 can do the job without such issues.

  46. #96
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    c) Swapping battery in the field means game over.
    Naw, it just means a new inning. You have to wait for the pitcher to warm up again.



    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    There is no good excuse when the IQ250 and the D810 can do the job without such issues.
    Sure there is. The 3100 has a lot less field time vs the sensor in those other two products. Well, maybe it is not an excuse, but it could be a good reason.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Maybe Doug Peterson can give you his $.02. (which I bet we share the same thinking here)

    Imho, the best course of action is to go through your dealer and work with Phase One. There are way too many variables to deal with---and I do trust Phase One has the facilities and know-how to resolve a situation. It maybe a firmware issue, C1 Pro post-processing issue, etc. Dunno. Or perhaps, it may be just one of those things where the IQ3 100MP isn't the best camera choice for this particular limited situation.

    Have you talked with Tech support at your dealer? Has the tech done any trouble shooting for you? Has the tech contacted Denmark? Have you contacted Phase One?

    With the few issues that I've had over the past ten+ years, this has always worked well for me.

    Ken

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Reason is not a tool that functions here.

  49. #99
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Naw, it just means a new inning. You have to wait for the pitcher to warm up again.


    Sure there is. The 3100 has a lot less field time vs the sensor in those other two products. Well, maybe it is not an excuse, but it could be a good reason.

    Dave
    Well I definitely don't want to shoot a darkframe when I swap battery while the cloud looks beautiful

    The D800 and the D800E were the first camera utilizing the Sony IMX094 sensor and with 1.0.0 firmware out of factory they could do excellent long exposure without such limitations.

    Your point on the preliminary darkframe makes sense and may be the key to the red cast for the IQ3 100MP and maybe the duration difference between the preliminary darkframe and the lightframe plays a significant role here. Let's denote it as delta_T. I'll try to test for delta_T=0min, 5min, 10min ... 30min and see what happens. Hopefully this helps Phase One fix this issue.

  50. #100
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Yes and before doing that I still would like to see a XF/DF image from that back. As my guess is still rech camera problem.
    This is for you Chris - a test with the XF+ camera body and a Schneider 55mm f/2.8 LS.

    First of all, I set the digital back to aerial mode and zero latency and then attached it to the XF+ camera body. The digital back just doesn't synchronize correctly with the camera body for long exposure. I had to detach the digital back, set it to normal mode and normal latency and then reattach it to the XF+ camera body for long exposure, which means for each lightframe there is a compulsory darkframe countdown. (Note that I have closed the viewfinder to block light leakage.)

    1/25s: no ND filter
    2min: Lee Big Stopper (100mm x 100mm square)
    30min: Singh-Ray 15-stop Mor-Slo (100mm x 100mm square)

    Here are the results with white balance correction without pushing shadow:

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    With +100 shadow push there is a slight red cast in the shadow but not that obvious as seen previous tests:

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    100% crop of shadow confirms red noise:

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