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Thread: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

  1. #101
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    The sun is going down now so I will probably wait until tomorrow to continue with further tests. After the weekend a batch of raw files will be sent to Phase One from both units (this demo unit and my friend's unit) through my dealer to create a support case.

    It is sad that the other IQ3 100MP users choose to ignore this issue and refuse to send me raw files showing this issue and some even bash my efforts. Feel free to defend and justify the upgrade.

  2. #102
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    A quick question, do Phase One say anywhere that the back will do long exposures in aerial mode, zero latency on a tech cam without issue? I thought aerial mode was for aerial shooting where the shutter speed would be fairly short anyway wouldn't it? If they aren't marketing it as capable of doing what you want then I'm not sure how you can say it's a problem. Isn't the camera dealing with a massive amount more data than the 50mp backs? I'm not sure I'd be expecting it to work in the same way at all. Testing is obviously the way to find out but if it doesn't work how you want it to then just use what does? Just asking because I haven't seen anything written to suggest that what you are trying to do falls within it's advertised specs or use.

    Mat

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    A quick question, do Phase One say anywhere that the back will do long exposures in aerial mode, zero latency on a tech cam without issue? I thought aerial mode was for aerial shooting where the shutter speed would be fairly short anyway wouldn't it? If they aren't marketing it as capable of doing what you want then I'm not sure how you can say it's a problem. Isn't the camera dealing with a massive amount more data than the 50mp backs? I'm not sure I'd be expecting it to work in the same way at all. Testing is obviously the way to find out but if it doesn't work how you want it to then just use what does? Just asking because I haven't seen anything written to suggest that what you are trying to do falls within it's advertised specs or use.

    Mat
    This is a good point and it's scary that Phase One may deny to fix it at all as they could always just claim everything is within their specs.

    3 years ago I bought into the IQ260 for disappointing long exposure because it has to rely on darkframe NR (normal mode + normal latency). I just wanted to shoot long exposure with flexibility as the 35mm format cameras.

    The IQ250 worked greatly like the 35mm format cameras.

    Now this is happening again with the IQ3 100MP and it's really frustrating.

  4. #104
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I'm not sure I agree that it would be scary if they don't acknowledge a problem if the back is working within specifications, it's just you are asking more of it than it can provide. As you know, previously the 80mp sensors didn't handle long exposures but the 60's did, just because the 100 is cmos, doesn't mean it will work in the same way as a Nikon or a 50mp back, just the sheer volume of data that has to be moved must be a limiting factor to what it can do or the heat it generates? I could see an issue needing to be solved if they say it will do 1hr exposures on an XF with a dark frame and then it doesn't, that would be a deviation from the specs, but asking it to do something that nobody says it can, that will mean simply adjusting your expectations wouldn't it? If the 50 works for what you want to do then seems as though that is the camera you want.

    Mat

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Maybe the IQ 100 just isn't the right tool for the job?

    EDIT: With such specialised use cases, it's inevitable that some gear will or won't function as needed. It's a bit like my Linhof Techno and Credo 60. I love it and it produces beautiful results in the areas that matter to me, but for someone like you it'd not be up to task. Perhaps for you the IQ1/2/350 is still the best option? It's a shame considering the new back is wonderful and the resolution in particular is a real step up, but maybe that's just the state of play right now?

    Of course, Phase may fix the problem in firmware when you've sent them your findings. We'll see...
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  6. #106
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    I'm not sure I agree that it would be scary if they don't acknowledge a problem if the back is working within specifications, it's just you are asking more of it than it can provide. As you know, previously the 80mp sensors didn't handle long exposures but the 60's did, just because the 100 is cmos, doesn't mean it will work in the same way as a Nikon or a 50mp back, just the sheer volume of data that has to be moved must be a limiting factor to what it can do or the heat it generates? I could see an issue needing to be solved if they say it will do 1hr exposures on an XF with a dark frame and then it doesn't, that would be a deviation from the specs, but asking it to do something that nobody says it can, that will mean simply adjusting your expectations wouldn't it? If the 50 works for what you want to do then seems as though that is the camera you want.

    Mat
    Being able to disable darkframe NR is by me considered to be an essential function for a camera in 2016. There have been so many posts asking for this function and complaining about compulsory darkframe NR for medium format cameras. Most experienced filters' pals will not buy into a camera with compulsory darkframe NR. I learnt my lesson after shooting with the IQ260.

    Six years ago the Nikon D7000 with Sony IMX071 did such a great job.

    Four years ago the Nikon D800E with Sony IMX094 did such a great job.

    Two years ago the Phase One IQ250 with Sony IMX161 did such a great job.

    One year ago the Sony A7R-II with Sony IMX251 did a poor job.

    This year the Phase One IQ3 100MP ...

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    But you know the 100 has dark frame subtraction, so why are you bothering? It is advertised as having it so it can't be a shock that it doesn't perform as you want without it surely? The fact that other cameras with half or less of the resolution perform better in that one area, doesn't mean the 100 is worth writing off because you have discovered something it doesn't do. I have a 260, I think it's brilliant, I don't personally have a desire to shoot the same style you do so the performance in those extremes doesn't affect me, for my daily use it's excellent.

    As others have said, if there is a genuine issue then Phase are the only people who are going to fix it out, going on about it on here is not going to get it sorted out.

    Mat
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    ....

    It is sad that the other IQ3 100MP users choose to ignore this issue and refuse to send me raw files showing this issue and some even bash my efforts. Feel free to defend and justify the upgrade.
    Now you're just being silly.

    Your first hasty generalization is your assumption that all IQ3 100MP owners/users use their cameras in these limited situations exactly as you do.

    If you have a situation where you wish to use "aerial mode" and I think fair to say, you're not in a situation that you are actually physically in "aerial mode"--maybe this is a pretty limited use application. While I appreciate your desire to do without the "dark frame, Phase One really hasn't offered that option to users, though some have opted for "aerial mode" as a means to avoid it. Maybe in the next firmware update Phase will offer the option of avoiding the dark frame without hiding some attribute of it disguised as "aerial" mode. As much importance as it is to you, disabling the "dark frame" afaik was never marketed by Phase One as a feature set of the IQ3 100MP, other than for actual aerial photography. Further, I think it not too much to simply communicate with the dealer network (which is specifically set up to deal with problems) and the mothership in Denmark, if needed. I really don't think anyone is bashing you, and I think the "refusal to send" you raw files probably is more because few shoot in the limited circumstances that you do, or they simply are too busy during the work week.

    No need to "defend" or "justify the upgrade." Everyone I've spoken to that actually owns an IQ 100MP thinks it works really well in professional use for how they use the camera system. Now if it simply doesn't work for you because of the style or type of photography you do, than that's fair enough---the IQ3 100MP might not be the best choice and you should look elsewhere. But I do wish you well with your dealer and Phase One, and hope they come up with a firmware solution or other that allows you to feel comfortable in completing your purchase of the IQ3 100MP. There are lots of features that I may not use on a camera system, but regardless, I'd welcome the ability to shut off the dark frame without experiencing red color cast as you are showing.

    Ken

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Now you're just being silly.

    Ken
    Yes I'm silly because someone fails to read #100 of this thread and identify any red noise with darkframe NR (without aerial mode).

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I read post 100, where you state there is a slight red shadow noise when shadows are pushed 100 on a 30 minute shot but not that obvious, is that what your complaint is? If so, contacting Phase and saying there is a slight red shadow noise when I push the shadows 100 will get you a reply of yes, that's normal or no, that's not normal, we can fix that. The results are far worse in aerial mode but as i don't think aerial mode is designed for that then I doubt you will get any joy. What are the results when the image is properly exposed and you don't need to push the shadows to 100? I have seen shots from other owners on this thread that look excellent.

    Mat

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    At 30 minutes, the total character of the image changes, much more noise. Sure the file could be down sampled and some of the noise will be lost, but it's a bit striking to the other two frames which are very clean. So that part of the issue sure should sent forward to Phase One, as the testing in post 100 is totally within specs of the 100MP back, which is rated to 1 hour. Extrapolating up, it's safe to say that a 1 hour exposure on the back tested would more than likely be worse and even harder to use.

    I have no tech camera currently, as mine is on loan, but I can try with my XF to see over the weekend.

    Based on the terrible long noise characteristics of the A7rII, (stuck pixels extremely harsh noise on all long exposures shot with long exposure noise off), the issue with the 100MP very well be heat build up as others have mentioned. The Sony A7rII, has a heat issue period, showing up in both 4K video and long exposures which as far as I know has not been fixed by Sony now in over a year (or close). I quickly returned my A7RII after using at night with a series of 2 minute exposures as the files were just not useable.

    Phase did not allow Video on the 100MP, Hasselblad did, so it will be interesting to see just how good the video from the Hasselblad is and if heat build up is an issue for them.

    I am also curious what the temp was during your 30 minute test, as the specs on the 100MP are still 69 degree F or less for longer exposures and low humidity, which keeps me from doing anything very long here as temp is 100 degrees and 100% humidity.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    What are the results when the image is properly exposed and you don't need to push the shadows to 100? I have seen shots from other owners on this thread that look excellent.

    Mat
    Being unable to push shadows to 100 is another way of saying the dynamic range is poor.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Ha, I guess so, at base ISO with normal exposures pushing shadows 100 is perfectly doable, on an underexposed shot at 30 minutes, you're asking a lot. Pushing shadows 100 on any shot in my experience just produces a horrible flat faux hdr file anyway, I am firmly in the camp where shadows are shadows and add much more depth to an image than any benefit from lifting them massively, we all want different things. In my own experiments, a 30 minute shot on the 260 has no difference in noise to a 5 minute shot but then I shoot long exposures generally in pretty cold conditions so that may have an affect.

    Mat
    Last edited by mjr; 15th July 2016 at 14:51.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Is there some reason that this conversation isn't with Phase?

    I once had a problem with my IQ 260. I called the dealer.
    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    In my own experiments, a 30 minute shot on the 260 has no difference in noise to a 5 minute shot but then I shoot long exposures generally in pretty cold conditions so that may have an affect.

    Mat
    Are you sure you are very experienced with the 30 minute shot on the IQ260? I'll post off-topic issues of the IQ260 long exposure here and see what your dealer can do for you and whether Phase One is willing to fix it for you.

    This time please don't complain that I have used aerial mode to disable darkframe NR. Here are the darkframe test shots:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wanna see what it looks like in a real world shot?

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    You think it's just my unit being faulty? Have a look into the sample image taken by Phase One's CTO (under cold temperature of course):

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    Still need to see more examples? Take a look into the sample files kindly provided by Digital Transitions:

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    Now that you have been told a problem with the IQ260. Try to ask your dealer or Phase One to fix it for you

    Or again, ignore it and use it like an IQ160 without long exposure capability.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Of course I'm sure I am experienced, I own it and use it, it's not in my interest to lie about it. My statement is clear, there is no appreciable difference on my back between the shots I take at 5 mins and 30 mins in cold temperatures, it's just a fact, I don't need other examples, I have my own! You are pretty condescending towards others, not everyone has a desire to take shots like you take. I don't judge it against a cmos back, it's not the same technology.

    Anyway, back to the subject, you have minimal noise in normal long exposure use as you suggest, ask Phase if it's normal. In extreme use, you are seeing strong red shadows, if that is normal for the back then you have your answer, use a camera that works for you and get on with it!

    Mat

    I will also add from your above shots that good technique is always better than just relying on pushing an image 4 stops in post and 100 in the shadows, if I was shooting so inappropriately then I am not going to blame the camera, I am going to work on my technique. Pushing a back so far and then saying it's crap when judged against other backs pushed that far is daft, if you can't get good images from any of these backs then the issue isn't the tech.
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  16. #116
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    there is no appreciable difference on my back between the shots I take at 5 mins and 30 mins in cold temperatures,

    Mat
    Are you sure there's no difference? Have you looked into the 4 corners carefully?

    Phase One would just say that the sensor temperature had grown out of specification and would refuse to fix the corner issues for you, even with the fact that their own CTO took that sample image in the snow and ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    I will also add from your above shots that good technique is always better than just relying on pushing an image 4 stops in post and 100 in the shadows,
    If you have good techniques to shoot these images posted here I'm willing to learn, really. For those long exposure shots of contrasty scenes I see no way of shooting without a sensor with good dynamic range.

    Even if you don't like dynamic range, Phase One has used this term for marketing purposes, as other companies does.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Of course I'm sure, what would possibly be the point of making it up? When I get up to 45 mins or an hour, there are issues with the corners for sure, luckily there are lots of solutions, I have used content aware fill many times and have no issue cropping, it's why I have 60mp, my clients never need images that size so I have the flexibility. Are you talking about the coastline image? Honestly I'm not your market for that sort of thing, I'm sure it's very popular though.

    Mat

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Of course I'm sure, what would possibly be the point of making it up? When I get up to 45 mins or an hour, there are issues with the corners for sure, luckily there are lots of solutions, I have used content aware fill many times and have no issue cropping, it's why I have 60mp, my clients never need images that size so I have the flexibility. Are you talking about the coastline image? Honestly I'm not your market for that sort of thing, I'm sure it's very popular though.

    Mat
    Well content aware fill is better than cropping it into a crop sensor. Glad that it worked out well for you.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I'm glad you're glad! Ha!

    We have different approaches for sure, nothing wrong with that, I use what I have to produce images my clients pay for, I am not precious over any of it, I work with what I have until the point when it doesn't work for me and then I look for something else. I don't need to produce images to show weaknesses in my kit, I'm far more interested in producing images that work.

    Anyway, rather than talking about my kit which isn't the 3100, I hope your friend sorts any legitimate issues he has and I hope you get to buy equipment that suits what you do, I don't think it's the 3100 but honestly it doesn't bother me what you shoot with as long as you enjoy it.

    Mat

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Void... can you please post your support case number under which your dealer has logged these raws/reports/issues with Phase One? I'd like to check out some of the raws and dialogue.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Ha, I guess so, at base ISO with normal exposures pushing shadows 100 is perfectly doable, on an underexposed shot at 30 minutes, you're asking a lot.
    Mat
    So many haters of aerial mode... Sure, I just set the IQ3 100MP at normal mode with the XF+ body, and set the IQ250 at aerial mode with the Alpa body.

    Phase One's specifications? Of course the IQ3 100MP is now "within Phase One's specs". What about the IQ250? It's now running "out of Phase One's specs".

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    Let's do the long exposure! Shouldn't we expect better shadow noise from the IQ3 100MP? Why is it pink again?

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    I also attach RawDigger screenshots just to prove that the IQ250 even had a slight disadvantage for shadow exposure.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Void... can you please post your support case number under which your dealer has logged these raws/reports/issues with Phase One? I'd like to check out some of the raws and dialogue.
    Hi Doug, I'll have to ask for permission from my dealer first. Though you may have access to all dialogues it's a good idea that I ask them first. Though this is totally irrelevant for this thread. I prefer to focus on the IQ3 100MP now as I wish Phase One could make it a greater digital back, not just a great digital back. Whatever Phase One plans to do with the corner issues of the IQ260 and the IQ3 80MP I no longer care about these CCDs.

  23. #123
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Hi Doug, I'll have to ask for permission from my dealer first. ....
    Now this I call, "bullshit."

    There's nothing to hide, nor is there any need for confidentiality. You have no problem plastering the forums here with your files and gyrations---yet when it comes to another dealer or a very capable tech (Doug) checking the files and dialogue, you balk?? It's your support case number.
    If there is such a significant and profound issue as you claim (so far you seem to be the only real complainant thus far) and you wish the IQ3 100MP to be a "greater back"---cut the ****. Be open forthright and disclose. To hell with any purported need to ask your dealer. It's your support case with Phase! If there is an issue, you seem to have no problem with hitting the forums. How about a little transparency?

    The real silliness is that it seems very very few actual owners or users photograph and push the files as you do. If that truly is your expectation, then good luck to you, and I hope you find a camera system that works for you. I don't think the IQ3 100MP is it absent a firmware update. Maybe Hasselblad's special recipe will work for you when they finally release their 100MP back. Or you might just have to wait for the IQ4 series...

    I'm outta here. Good luck to you.

    ken

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I can't push my Credo 60 to +4 stops, +100 shadows and max contrast with half hour exposure without seeing noise and banding. I think I'm going to open a support case with Leaf because I should be able to forget about the laws of physics and logic when exposing photos with gear that costs this much. While waiting for them to reply in the form of a firmware update and public apologiy with the CEO being tar and feathered then paraded down the main street in Copenhagen in the nude, I might go out and take photos in the way my equipment was designed to operate. Who knows, maybe I might enjoy the process.
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    "So many haters of aerial mode... Sure, I just set the IQ3 100MP at normal mode with the XF+ body, and set the IQ250 at aerial mode with the Alpa body.

    Phase One's specifications? Of course the IQ3 100MP is now "within Phase One's specs". What about the IQ250? It's now running "out of Phase One's specs".

    Let's do the long exposure! Shouldn't we expect better shadow noise from the IQ3 100MP? Why is it pink again?"


    Who has said they are a hater of aerial mode, certainly not me, it does what it is intended to do really well, it allows reusing of a dark frame in situations where you want rapid, short duration shots in aerial situations which can transfer to handheld and other situations when you need that ability, the key here is that it's reusing a dark frame that is adequate for the shot duration. You are using it way beyond what it was designed for and then complaining it doesn't work as you want it to, well that's just the way it is surely?!

    I personally don't think that expecting excellent shadow performance on 30 min shots pushed 4 stops and with +100 shadows is reasonable, bearing in mind that even with that massive boost, the sections of the image you are showing are still really dark, it's just not reasonable to expect perfection in those situations from a camera pushing around so much data. The issue is your expectations rather than the back's performance in my opinion. As you state, the 100 is running within Phase One specs so surely common sense dictates that what you are doing is outside those specs.

    It's not unreasonable to want a piece of equipment that is as expensive as the 3100 to perform better than anything else out there but it's unreasonable to complain about it when you are asking way more than is possible. I can justify the expense of a 3100 and after reading your posts, I would not hesitate to buy one if it benefitted my work but I have not yet hit situations where the 260 is lacking so I am not buying.

    I'm off to do as tjv has excellently suggested and shoot my 260 as it was intended to be used and wait for the public tar and feathering, haha!

    Have a nice weekend all.

    Mat
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Now this I call, "bullshit."

    There's nothing to hide, nor is there any need for confidentiality. You have no problem plastering the forums here with your files and gyrations---yet when it comes to another dealer or a very capable tech (Doug) checking the files and dialogue, you balk?? It's your support case number.
    If there is such a significant and profound issue as you claim (so far you seem to be the only real complainant thus far) and you wish the IQ3 100MP to be a "greater back"---cut the ****. Be open forthright and disclose. To hell with any purported need to ask your dealer. It's your support case with Phase! If there is an issue, you seem to have no problem with hitting the forums. How about a little transparency?

    The real silliness is that it seems very very few actual owners or users photograph and push the files as you do. If that truly is your expectation, then good luck to you, and I hope you find a camera system that works for you. I don't think the IQ3 100MP is it absent a firmware update. Maybe Hasselblad's special recipe will work for you when they finally release their 100MP back. Or you might just have to wait for the IQ4 series...

    I'm outta here. Good luck to you.

    ken
    There is no IQ3 100MP support case number yet because I'm still collecting raw files. I'm certainly glad if Doug will take a look into these IQ3 100MP raw files.

    Regarding the IQ260 support case number, that is irrelevant to this thread. I hope those IQ260 users send their unit straight back to Phase One through their dealer, if they disagree with the way I handle this IQ3 100MP "issue". (I did not waste my time sending my IQ260 back to Phase One.)

    There's no secret to hide? LUL So many IQ3 100MP users "hide" their raw files from me and don't even allow me to mention our private message conversations.

    You obviously have contributed so much to this thread and have been fun and interactive. Have a good weekend

  27. #127
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Hi,

    Voidshatter finds and issue and discusses it. Sooner or later Phase One fixes the issue. A win for all?!

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Now this I call, "bullshit."

    There's nothing to hide, nor is there any need for confidentiality. You have no problem plastering the forums here with your files and gyrations---yet when it comes to another dealer or a very capable tech (Doug) checking the files and dialogue, you balk?? It's your support case number.
    If there is such a significant and profound issue as you claim (so far you seem to be the only real complainant thus far) and you wish the IQ3 100MP to be a "greater back"---cut the ****. Be open forthright and disclose. To hell with any purported need to ask your dealer. It's your support case with Phase! If there is an issue, you seem to have no problem with hitting the forums. How about a little transparency?

    The real silliness is that it seems very very few actual owners or users photograph and push the files as you do. If that truly is your expectation, then good luck to you, and I hope you find a camera system that works for you. I don't think the IQ3 100MP is it absent a firmware update. Maybe Hasselblad's special recipe will work for you when they finally release their 100MP back. Or you might just have to wait for the IQ4 series...

    I'm outta here. Good luck to you.

    ken

  28. #128
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Hi 'Void',

    I got the impression that you use dense ND filters in your testing. I am pretty sure some of those are quite permissive in the IR-range. Could it be an IR-filtering issue?

    As the colouring is not uniform I would associate it with beam angle. Do you get the same colouring with different lenses?

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    So many haters of aerial mode... Sure, I just set the IQ3 100MP at normal mode with the XF+ body, and set the IQ250 at aerial mode with the Alpa body.

    Phase One's specifications? Of course the IQ3 100MP is now "within Phase One's specs". What about the IQ250? It's now running "out of Phase One's specs".

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    Let's do the long exposure! Shouldn't we expect better shadow noise from the IQ3 100MP? Why is it pink again?

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    I also attach RawDigger screenshots just to prove that the IQ250 even had a slight disadvantage for shadow exposure.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi 'Void',

    I got the impression that you use dense ND filters in your testing. I am pretty sure some of those are quite permissive in the IR-range. Could it be an IR-filtering issue?

    As the colouring is not uniform I would associate it with beam angle. Do you get the same colouring with different lenses?

    Best regards
    Erik
    I have just received another raw file from another friend. This unit has firmware 3.08.1 with serial number IG01128?. It was installed on an Alpa Max with Rodenstock 90mm HRSW. This test was done in a laboratory with controlled lighting conditions. No filter was used. It was shot in aerial mode and zero latency, with 1/60s as the first exposure since power on, and a subsequent long exposure of 30 minutes without darkframe NR. Apparently the red cast in shadow is dominant. This is so far the third unit showing this "issue", and this raw file will go to the same support case as well. It would be stupid and a waste of time to send in our units to Phase One straight away, as I'm sure Phase One can reliably reproduce this "issue" with their own units.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Update:

    Another test setup:

    a) Power on and couple with ALPA Schneider 75mm f/5.6 APO-Helvetar without shift;
    b) Set camera mode to aerial and zero latency;
    c) Shoot an image at 1/60s;
    d) Shoot LCC;
    e) Shoot an image at 1/8s without strong ND filter;
    f) Shoot an image at 2min with Lee Big Stopper (100mm x 100mm square);
    g) Shoot an image at 30min with Singh-Ray 15-stop Mor-Slo (100mm x 100mm square). Bang!

    IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

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    And again with an IQ250 with the same setup above for comparison:

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    This test confirms that the red cast in shadow is not associated with specific wide angle lenses.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    A win for all?!
    Only if Phase One fixes it.

    There's a chance that Phase One will never fix it just like Sony has never fixed the long exposure for the A7R-II.

    This would certainly reduce the pride of ownership of the gear, as well as potential re-sales value of the gear. That's why the A7R-II owners tried so hard to defend the use of darkframe NR.

  32. #132
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Hi,

    Even if Phase One doesn't fix it it is better to be aware of the problem than not to be aware of the problem…

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Only if Phase One fixes it.

    There's a chance that Phase One will never fix it just like Sony has never fixed the long exposure for the A7R-II.

    This would certainly reduce the pride of ownership of the gear, as well as potential re-sales value of the gear. That's why the A7R-II owners tried so hard to defend the use of darkframe NR.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Hi Doug, I'll have to ask for permission from my dealer first. Though you may have access to all dialogues it's a good idea that I ask them first. Though this is totally irrelevant for this thread.
    I mean the support case for the IQ3 100mp, not the older support case.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Why are you exposing your dark frame at 1/60 if your final exposure is going to be many minutes? These are different by a factor of 3000x.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I mean the support case for the IQ3 100mp, not the older support case.
    There isn't one yet. We will create a new one next Monday.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Why are you exposing your dark frame at 1/60 if your final exposure is going to be many minutes? These are different by a factor of 3000x.
    Already explained here

  36. #136
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Update:

    Another test setup:

    a) Power on and couple with ALPA Schneider 75mm f/5.6 APO-Helvetar without shift;
    b) Set camera mode to normal mode and zero latency; (this means with darkframe NR)
    c) Shoot an image at 1/8s without strong ND filter;
    d) Shoot an image at 2min with Lee Big Stopper (100mm x 100mm square);
    e) Shoot an image at 30min with Singh-Ray 15-stop Mor-Slo (100mm x 100mm square). Bang!

    IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

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  37. #137
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I mean the support case for the IQ3 100mp, not the older support case.
    That's also exactly what I meant and what I thought this thread was referring to.

    This really is worthless banter as far as I'm concerned. Communicating with a Dealer and Phase One should have been the very first step taken here---and that's been communicated over the course of how many pages on this thread??

    I'm now upset that I can't auto-start my AMG-GTS from the touch screen of the IQ3 100MP. Anyone else have this problem too? Off to Denmark...

    I'm with Mat, here. Your expectations are unreasonable. It's a simple conclusion that the IQ3 100MP is not going to work for how you want it to. That's what rental or loaners before purchase are all about. Glad you took the time to find out.

    ken

  38. #138
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Hi Paul,

    Did you get your IQ3 100 MP yet?

    I guess that you have some interest in this long exposure with/without dark frame, too?

    Void has found some issues on the A7rII, too. Personally, I seldom shoot longer than 30s and I have disabled that long exposure noise reduction on the A7rII, as it forces 12 bit readout.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Dave's results will be most interesting from this last test.

    I have a feeling personally, that Voidshatter's type of shot was never tested by P1. For them Aerial mode is for use by the Aerial cameras, and none of them would be shooting for 20minutes on a single exposure would they? Thus the back is in spec.

    On the XF, you have to use the LE mode and wait out the same amount of time via the dark frame, (so again more than likely most shooters wanting this type of shot are back on 645z or 35mm) as waiting for 20 extra minutes for the LE mode to finish is just too much of a cost in time and possibly missed opportunities, not to mention added heat build up as the back is working the entire extra 20 minutes.

    Very well may have been just overlooked and is a problem with heat build up or something similar.

    It also may be why there is no video recording possibilities, again due to heat build up? Most Live View via HDMI session would not be anywhere near this long.

    Might very well be just a limitation of 100MP CMOS. At least this generation.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Communicating with a Dealer and Phase One should have been the very first step taken here---and that's been communicated over the course of how many pages on this thread??
    Welcome back to this thread My friend already did that before he came to me, and his dealer told him that his IQ3 100MP was the only one with long exposure issues among all units sold in China, and that he should send his IQ3 100MP back to Denmark. His dealer were about to create a support case with Phase One when he sends his unit back, and he almost did that. My test results totally changed that. Now he no longer needs to send his unit back to Denmark for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Your expectations are unreasonable.
    Really? #6 of this thread and #136 of this thread falls within your expectations? These were shot with darkframe NR on (from two different units). Please, have more fun here

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    All emotions aside, looking at the testing from Void (if I understand his parameters on the last test), that at 30 minute exposures WITH long exposure noise reduction ON, he is still getting a red cast to the files. That would not be within Phase One specs, as the back should be able to produce up to 1hour. Per his previous testing, the 100MP with Long Noise on, @ 30 minutes is also not showing as clean as the IQ250, take away the red noise and just look at the finer details.

    I away from my camera for the next 2 days, but will test mine Monday with an XF with the big stopper from LEE, I am curious now as this does bring back memories of my P45+ (which had a similar issue with excessive red noise @ 15 minutes or longer), however Phase did know about this and made a fix to all P45+ cameras with a newer firmware which did take away the issue.

    I have only shot my 100 up to 5 minutes, and all of those shots were on the XF with a dark frame. During the shoot I was in outdoor conditions that were not ideal for longer exposures per Phase One, as I was at 90 degrees ambient temp and 100% humidity. But the back did fine.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I always wanted to test it as well, but I just don't have the time. Currently I don't need it. The longest stuff is around 5-10 minutes and here I can say it looks quite good. Perhaps next week I will have the chance to do something with the XF, but perhaps it will be another week before I have the time.

    I agree that Phase One has to do nothing if you have problems exposing for 30 minutes without NR (black frame). I know the 250 can do it but that's a different horse.

    However, WITH NR and a reasonable exposure up to 60 minutes should be a problem.

  42. #142
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Now this I call, "bullshit."

    There's nothing to hide, nor is there any need for confidentiality. You have no problem plastering the forums here with your files and gyrations---yet when it comes to another dealer or a very capable tech (Doug) checking the files and dialogue, you balk?? It's your support case number.
    If there is such a significant and profound issue as you claim (so far you seem to be the only real complainant thus far) and you wish the IQ3 100MP to be a "greater back"---cut the ****. Be open forthright and disclose. To hell with any purported need to ask your dealer. It's your support case with Phase! If there is an issue, you seem to have no problem with hitting the forums. How about a little transparency?

    The real silliness is that it seems very very few actual owners or users photograph and push the files as you do. If that truly is your expectation, then good luck to you, and I hope you find a camera system that works for you. I don't think the IQ3 100MP is it absent a firmware update. Maybe Hasselblad's special recipe will work for you when they finally release their 100MP back. Or you might just have to wait for the IQ4 series...

    I'm outta here. Good luck to you.

    ken
    +1!!!

    It is quite sad. Even though Voidshatter's info is quite a few times right he is wrong with his (lack of) communication skills and comes across as a naggy chronically unhappy and unsatisfied person (he probably is). Over and over again post after post the same arguments are repeated. Plus he almost always focuses on what the product does not have rather than what it offers.

    He might as well just get a A7RII or a D810 or whatever is available that works for what he wants to do and be happy, if that is possible.
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight. Never done long exposures beyond 5 minutes or so.

    Just wondering, is there a particular time cut off where the red cast appears? Would you be able to take exposures at say 5 minute intervals to see exactly how long it takes? Just curious, it may be to do with the sensor heating up and causing the problem after a certain length of time.
    Just completed this incremental test with the following setup:

    a) Power on and couple with ALPA Schneider 75mm f/5.6 APO-Helvetar without shift;
    b) Set camera mode to normal mode and zero latency; (this means a darkframe NR countdown after each exposure)
    c) Shoot image at 1/8s, 2min, 7min, 15min and 30min with appropriate ND filter(s) and corresponding aperture.

    IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	119821

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I always wanted to test it as well, but I just don't have the time. Currently I don't need it. The longest stuff is around 5-10 minutes and here I can say it looks quite good. Perhaps next week I will have the chance to do something with the XF, but perhaps it will be another week before I have the time.

    I agree that Phase One has to do nothing if you have problems exposing for 30 minutes without NR (black frame). I know the 250 can do it but that's a different horse.

    However, WITH NR and a reasonable exposure up to 60 minutes should be a problem.
    Just completed this incremental test with the XF+ body with the following setup:

    a) Set camera mode to normal mode and normal latency; (this means a darkframe NR countdown after each exposure)
    b) Couple with XF+ body and Schneider 55mm LS and power on;
    c) Shoot image at 1/8s, 2min, 7min, 15min and 30min with appropriate ND filter(s) and corresponding aperture.

    IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    A whole day has been wasted just because people here defend darkframe NR, which doubles the time required for these long exposure tests. For real world shooting I will never consider such an inconvenient way of shooting again. Not having to rely on any darkframe NR in the field is essential for me. Good luck and have fun if you guys are interested in testing this out.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I have been following this thread with interest and have read everyone's responses and frankly folks, I am disappointed in the august gathering on this forum.

    Either Yunli is right, the camera does not perform as per specs or he is wrong. The issue is how we as a fraternity of passionate photographers handle this matter. It does not help by saying 'this is not the camera for you', 'why don't you report it to Phase and let them sort it out' etc. I think the process should be one of trying to understand what is happening and why. This could happen to any one of us with any of our cameras. Just because the majority do not use their equipment in this manner does not mean it is not relevant. I don't do any fashion or glamor, and if somebody here has a problem with high-speed flash sync it would be unfair of me to suggest they need a different way of working or a different system altogether.

    Nobody forces anyone to read or response to anything at GetDPI, or anywhere else on the net. If you don't like what somebody is saying, just ignore the thread altogether. Saying 'I'm out of here' and then coming back with another post just shows you are really vested in this thread and get a thrill from participating even if to pour derision on the OP.

    Yes, Yunli could be better at explaining himself, but so many of us do not speak English natively or have other barriers to communicating coherently. Very few of us are articulate, erudite AND eloquent. This does not mean a response full of innuendos is appropriate. His other problem is persistence, though some may consider it a virtue. I do not believe he is a troll and I think he genuinely feels there is a problem with his particular unit and perhaps others that may not be obvious unless people do the same tests he is doing. His methodology is also important to his work and I believe we should welcome a different approach to long-exposure photography if it produces good results - something that he has shown already.

    My humble suggestion is for people to show a little more understanding and sympathy, that's all.
    Too much to list, let's just say I have a bad case of GAS.........
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    TLDR: here is a summary of current observations so far:

    (I have masked out the last digit of each known serial number)

    Digital back Serial number Firmware Darkframe without LENR Darkframe with LENR Tech cam without LENR Tech cam with LENR XF+ with LENR
    Demo unit #1 IG01109? 3.05.1 Red shadow ? ? ? ?
    Demo unit #2 IG01112? 4.03.2 Red shadow ? Red shadow Red shadow Red shadow
    Demo unit #3 IG01128? 3.08.1 ? ? Red shadow ? ?
    Jazz's IG01141? 4.01.2 Red shadow ? Red shadow Red shadow Red shadow
    Dave's IG01158? 4.01.2 Red shadow ? Normal Normal ?
    Victor's ? 4.01.2 ? ? Normal Normal ?
    IQ250 GT00149? 1.05.1 Normal ? Normal Normal ?

  48. #148
    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I do not have a 10 stop ND filter so I just used 32HR with CF at f32.
    Its about a 15 minute exposure (14 minute 47 seconds).
    With dark frame ON (no LCC off course)
    IS0=100 (forgot to change it to 50)

    IQ3 100 H
    Firmware=4.03.2
    SN=IE0110XX


    Full image:


    100% crop without any adjustment:


    100% crop with HDR Shadow slider = 100:


    100% crop with HDR Shadow Slider = 100 AND Exposure Slider = +2


    100% crop with HDR Shadow Slider = 100 AND Exposure Slider = +4


    This does not fit how I use my cameras but IF I had to do something like this, I think I'd be OK with what I am getting.

    As far as I am concerned this is a non-issue FOR ME.

    Hope this helps.
    Cheers!
    Last edited by Jamgolf; 16th July 2016 at 13:40.
    IQ3 100 H • Cambo 1200 • Rodenstock 32HR 90HRSW • 350 Superachromat
    UnTroubled Land
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Just completed this incremental test with the following setup:

    a) Power on and couple with ALPA Schneider 75mm f/5.6 APO-Helvetar without shift;
    b) Set camera mode to normal mode and zero latency; (this means a darkframe NR countdown after each exposure)
    c) Shoot image at 1/8s, 2min, 7min, 15min and 30min with appropriate ND filter(s) and corresponding aperture.

    IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	21.jpg 
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ID:	119821
    What you are showing looks like black level going up with exposure going up. You can try editing black level in RawDigger manually to confirm the issue. With correct black level there should be no magenta cast and normal contrast.
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Just completed this incremental test with the XF+ body with the following setup:

    a) Set camera mode to normal mode and normal latency; (this means a darkframe NR countdown after each exposure)
    b) Couple with XF+ body and Schneider 55mm LS and power on;
    c) Shoot image at 1/8s, 2min, 7min, 15min and 30min with appropriate ND filter(s) and corresponding aperture.

    IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	19.jpg 
Views:	21 
Size:	358.5 KB 
ID:	119822
    anyone question the ND filters????? I mean ND filters are known to create this kind of red hue/IR polution to the image.... no????
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