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Thread: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

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    IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I haven't received my IQ3 100MP yet due to the earthquake, but a friend of mine found a problem with it:

    If darkframe noise reduction is disabled with "Aerial Mode", the IQ3 100MP gradually fills up shadow with red color cast if the exposure time is over 2 minutes.

    Below is an example:

    IQ3 100MP + Rodenstock 50mm HR-W, 32 minutes:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note that it's not a white balance problem. Adjusting white balance does not fix the red color cast in shadow.

    Here is another example:

    IQ3 100MP + Rodenstock 23mm HR-S, 2 minutes vs 7 minutes:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note that this is not a lens color cast issue, because LCC has been applied and the 2 minute exposure does not suffer from this red shadow problem.

    After I looked into these examples, I recalled that when I first tested the IQ3 100MP about 6 months ago I did notice that the darkframe of the 20 minute long exposure looked red.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    For comparison, the IQ250 does not have this issue at all.

    Here is a real world picture I made with the IQ250:

    IQ250 + Rodenstock 40mm HR-W, 8 minutes:

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    There is no red color cast in the shadow at all.

    Then I looked into the darkframe files with RawDigger:

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    It appears that there is no red color cast of shadow in RawDigger, and there are no higher values of the red channel reported. To me it looks like a bug in Capture One. Hopefully this issue can be fixed in the next version of Capture One.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Did you take a 20min shot with LE ON? Just curious if the LE has that much effect? LE should be after standard noise and stuck pixels at least in my experience.

    I have not taken anything longer than 5 minutes with the IQ100 but that was with the XF, where LE is on and can't be turned off.

    Phase may also not see this as a bug, as their official response is that that all exposures at 1 sec or longer should have LE turned on.

    It would be interesting to open the problem files in LR if they ever get support for the back, or raw therapee?

    Thanks for posting, interesting issue as I agree any CMOS back should be able to run for 20 minutes with a flood of red noise.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Did you take a 20min shot with LE ON? Just curious if the LE has that much effect? LE should be after standard noise and stuck pixels at least in my experience.

    I have not taken anything longer than 5 minutes with the IQ100 but that was with the XF, where LE is on and can't be turned off.

    Phase may also not see this as a bug, as their official response is that that all exposures at 1 sec or longer should have LE turned on.

    It would be interesting to open the problem files in LR if they ever get support for the back, or raw therapee?

    Thanks for posting, interesting issue as I agree any CMOS back should be able to run for 20 minutes with a flood of red noise.

    Paul C
    Hi Paul, when I tested the IQ3 100MP I did not specifically test exposures longer than 5 minutes and the only test I made longer than 5 minutes was that 20-minute darkframe alone without LENR. RawDigger reported very low numbers for standard deviation (on the contrary to the histograms I didn't pay attention to) which gave me very high expectation of the digital back.

    My Photoshop is still CS6 with ACR 9.1.1 so I am unable to try these problematic raw files. I don't use Lightroom either.

    Currently I have no access to the IQ3 100MP so I am unable to do further tests regarding LENR. I can certainly ask my friend to disable Aerial Mode to enable LENR and try again but I have no idea when I can get the feedback.

    Maybe currently you are the best person to test this, if you still have a technical camera to use Aerial Mode to disable LENR?

    If it's confirmed that this red shadow is a problem without LENR, and that Phase One isn't going to fix it, then it would become extremely difficult for me to justify this upgrade.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Any idea of the FW # on the red problem images?

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Any idea of the FW # on the red problem images?
    According to EXIF data found in the 100MP IIQ files, firmware versions are:

    3.05.1 for the darkframe, and 4.01.2 for the realworld pictures.

    I don't think it's a firmware problem, but it would be helpful if someone else could post results of 4.03.2.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Update: I have just received another file *with* long exposure noise reduction (i.e. *not* Aerial Mode). There is still a red color cast in the shadow, even with RawDigger.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    This 2nd example is with LE on? Normal latency with a tech camera?

    If so then it would seem there is a problem with the particular back or the heat where the back is being shot is too high ambient temp?

    So far the longest I have done is about 5 or 10 minutes but I had the dark frame in use. It's way to hot now I'm my local area to try a 20 minute shoot 105 degree daytime 97 night.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    This could be dark current creeping up.

    If the effect happens only with LE noise reduction OFF (but not with noise reduction ON), you could record 10-20 (!) dark frames (images with lens cap on, same length as your image). Average those, and subtract from your image. IF temperature is about the same, that should solve the problem. IF temperature has changed, you probably need new darks.
    You need many darks to reduce photon noise on the darks. If you can do only a few (because it takes a while...) it should still improve the situation.

    It could also be that in aerial mode, a "standard" dark is still subtracted, but it is not good enough ? Or it is noise from the on-chip dark current suppression.

    In astrophotography, where LE noise reduction is usually off for efficiency reasons, the standard procedure is:
    - Take all images
    - Take 10-20 darks, average them to get master dark
    - Subtract master dark from image
    That work pretty well, as long as temperature is mostly constant. Some people have libraries of darks at different temperatures.

    Hope this helps...

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    The problem is your darks are normally to remove stuck pixels and other excessive noise. These images need something like an LCC applied to remove the color cast. The files don't seem overly full of noise to me.

    Quick other note.

    When I had my first P45+ and took it past 15 minutes I had the exact same problem. Strong magenta color cast on the file. Phase fixed this with a firmware later on in the life of the P45+. Some early P45+ backs bricked when this firmware was applied and needed new control boards. Sure hope this is not the case with the IQ100.

    And I also hope if this is a problem with early backs that a fix will be applied retro to those affected.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    This 2nd example is with LE on? Normal latency with a tech camera?

    If so then it would seem there is a problem with the particular back or the heat where the back is being shot is too high ambient temp?

    So far the longest I have done is about 5 or 10 minutes but I had the dark frame in use. It's way to hot now I'm my local area to try a 20 minute shoot 105 degree daytime 97 night.

    Paul C
    EXIF data:

    Sensor Temperature
    34.25 C
    Sensor Temperature 2
    33.75 C

    Pretty much normal temperature for a CMOS back.

    I did mention that LCC has already been applied.

    Also I don't think it's a problem with the particular copy of back because the demo unit also showed the same problem.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    This could be dark current creeping up.

    If the effect happens only with LE noise reduction OFF (but not with noise reduction ON), you could record 10-20 (!) dark frames (images with lens cap on, same length as your image). Average those, and subtract from your image. IF temperature is about the same, that should solve the problem. IF temperature has changed, you probably need new darks.
    You need many darks to reduce photon noise on the darks. If you can do only a few (because it takes a while...) it should still improve the situation.

    It could also be that in aerial mode, a "standard" dark is still subtracted, but it is not good enough ? Or it is noise from the on-chip dark current suppression.

    In astrophotography, where LE noise reduction is usually off for efficiency reasons, the standard procedure is:
    - Take all images
    - Take 10-20 darks, average them to get master dark
    - Subtract master dark from image
    That work pretty well, as long as temperature is mostly constant. Some people have libraries of darks at different temperatures.

    Hope this helps...
    These are pretty standard procedure for astrophotography. There is no excuse that the IQ3 100MP has to rely on these while the IQ250 does not have to rely on these.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Any chance this is a light leak problem with the 23hr? The pattern sure looks lens related.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    The sun is coming up here but I could try something tonight. Someone would have to help me with how to set this up since I've never tried shots longer than 1 min.

    I have a 6x ND and a polarizer. Should I use both at dusk at F/22 and 50 ISO? I guess I have a light meter somewhere. Have to put batteries in it.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Any chance this is a light leak problem with the 23hr? The pattern sure looks lens related.

    Dave
    The 23HR images are without center filter. Correcting lens vignetting in post processing means pushing shadow.

    I don't think it's light leakage as the 50HR image also has this issue, as well as the dark frame image (with lens cap on).

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    The sun is coming up here but I could try something tonight. Someone would have to help me with how to set this up since I've never tried shots longer than 1 min.

    I have a 6x ND and a polarizer. Should I use both at dusk at F/22 and 50 ISO? I guess I have a light meter somewhere. Have to put batteries in it.

    Dave
    One Singh-Ray 15-mor-slo would do the job. Otherwise just put the lens cap on and shoot a dark frame. A dark frame should look dark (as for the IQ250 one), not red (as for the IQ3 100MP one).

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I just did a 20 min lens cap image in Aerial mode and it is still doing its own dark frame.

    How do I turn it off? Sorry long exposure newbie.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Firmware 4.01.2

    I am trying again. Cycled the back on/off with it in aerial mode before taking this one. We will see...

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Still doing it. Do I have to have it in zero latency?
    ISO 50
    Normal latency
    Aerial mode
    ??

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Still doing it. Do I have to have it in zero latency?
    ISO 50
    Normal latency
    Aerial mode
    ??
    The following three conditions together will disable darkframe NR:

    a) Aerial mode;
    b) Zero latency;
    c) Not the first image since power on (i.e. since the second image and on).

    So if you want to trigger a long exposure without darkframe NR: just power on, switch to aerial mode and zero latency, shoot one image at 1/60s or any fast shutter speed, and then do the long exposure.
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    where is your dealer in all this?
    surely they should have the answer or point you to raising a support ticket with phase?
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I'm slowly getting smarter. Tested it first with Yunli's instructions. Works fine. A 1-min exposure shows me my happy stuck pixels in all their RGB glory.

    Taking a 20 min exposure now.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    where is your dealer in all this?
    surely they should have the answer or point you to raising a support ticket with phase?
    Not even a good dealer could help much. When I discovered the corner issues of the IQ260 for exposures longer than 15 minutes, Phase One denied to admit any design flaw.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I'm slowly getting smarter. Tested it first with Yunli's instructions. Works fine. A 1-min exposure shows me my happy stuck pixels in all their RGB glory.

    Taking a 20 min exposure now.

    Dave
    Sorry I forgot that you have to take the 1 exposure first. It's been a while since I used this.

    Paul C

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I can see on the preview it is purple. I'll get it into RawDigger in a bit and post the results. I will also try ISO 100 and a few different times.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Mine looks fine in RawDigger. Purple on import to C1, but a WB click takes that completely away.
    As shot WB: 3122, -1.4
    Custom WB: 3158, -55.8

    Looks like something else is going on. Either a light leak in the camera or something with that back.

    Dave


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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Mine looks fine in RawDigger. Purple on import to C1, but a WB click takes that completely away.
    As shot WB: 3122, -1.4
    Custom WB: 3158, -55.8

    Looks like something else is going on. Either a light leak in the camera or something with that back.

    Dave
    Thanks for sharing!

    For real-world images instead of lens cap images, RawDigger could do a bit better than C1, but still struggles to white balance everything (if the shadow is white balanced then the highlight is not white balanced).

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    If I WB in C1 and then push it 4 stops, it still is amazingly flat gray.

    davechewphotography.com
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    If I WB in C1 and then push it 4 stops, it still is amazingly flat gray.
    "Day light" white balance gives a good suggestion about how it's gonna look like in shadows for real-world images.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    "Day light" white balance gives a good suggestion about how it's gonna look like in shadows for real-world images.
    Well that would definitely have a pink cast since the WB tint is at -55. But since the raw histograms in RD are very uniform between the RGGB channels, then I think that would be a problem with either C1 or the profile. Not with the back.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Not even a good dealer could help much. When I discovered the corner issues of the IQ260 for exposures longer than 15 minutes, Phase One denied to admit any design flaw.
    Good dealers are often aware of limitations, workarounds, third party options, etc before the manufacturer is and a main driver for the manufacturer to address/improve/provide those things . We've been really interested in this area and doing a lot of research and testing of our own based on the super-high-res time-lapse market.

    Quick note... what you are doing is not technically "disabling" the dark frame. You are forcing the back to reuse the dark frame made in the first capture executed after enabling the aerial mode.

    I would suggest you and your friend's situation is better addressed through your dealer and Phase One than through the forum.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Well that would definitely have a pink cast since the WB tint is at -55. But since the raw histograms in RD are very uniform between the RGGB channels, then I think that would be a problem with either C1 or the profile. Not with the back.

    Dave
    That's also what I have thought. However even with RawDigger for the real pictures I still have some minor red cast in the shadow for the real-world images. Could you give it a go and see what happens? I think you have some not-so-strong ND filters and you could perhaps use these indoors for long exposure?

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Good dealers are often aware of limitations, workarounds, third party options, etc before the manufacturer is and a main driver for the manufacturer to address/improve/provide those things . We've been really interested in this area and doing a lot of research and testing of our own based on the super-high-res time-lapse market.

    Quick note... what you are doing is not technically "disabling" the dark frame. You are forcing the back to reuse the dark frame made in the first capture executed after enabling the aerial mode.

    I would suggest you and your friend's situation is better addressed through your dealer and Phase One than through the forum.
    Hi Doug, thanks for the explanation. It's interesting to hear that the back will reuse the darkframe made in the first capture executed. I will definitely give it a test!

    As for addressing this problem - my own experience was that no company would address such issues actively unless it's exposed and it threatens reputation. One well-known example is Nikon's infamous dust/oil D600. For the IQ260 history, not even the best dealer in the UK could get Phase One fix the problem for me. I chose not to publish the corner issues of long exposure to English forums because I didn't want to hurt Phase One's sales, and the problem ended up inherited by the IQ3 80MP.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    That's also what I have thought. However even with RawDigger for the real pictures I still have some minor red cast in the shadow for the real-world images. Could you give it a go and see what happens? I think you have some not-so-strong ND filters and you could perhaps use these indoors for long exposure?
    I will try if I have time. Might not be tonight though.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    So it looks like a dark frame mismatch. The back is applying the dark it has taken with the first frame - maybe with 1/60s exposure to the long exposure frame.
    So next test:
    Take a long exposure image, with NR on. After that, disable the NR, and take another long exposure image. That one should be much better.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    So it looks like a dark frame mismatch. The back is applying the dark it has taken with the first frame - maybe with 1/60s exposure to the long exposure frame.
    So next test:
    Take a long exposure image, with NR on. After that, disable the NR, and take another long exposure image. That one should be much better.
    You obviously didn't read #6 of this thread. This problem has nothing to do with darkframe NR. It's a general issue.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I would first would like to se an example from a XF camera. To me it looks like a tech camera problem. It doesn't have to be, but that would be my first step to be sure it's any general problem.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Good dealers are often aware of limitations, workarounds, third party options, etc before the manufacturer is and a main driver for the manufacturer to address/improve/provide those things ...
    So, in a nutshell, whoever designed this thing screwed up; users now have to 'lobby' P1 in order to get them to fix it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    I would suggest you and your friend's situation is better addressed through your dealer and Phase One than through the forum.
    Like all those diesel owning VW drivers would have gotten the deal currently on the table (in the US at least) simply via their dealership and VW HQ in Germany. Yeah, right.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Be happy, don't even think as a German Customer you will EVER see one cent of money.

    That makes you feel even more crappy if you hear about their f****** grand gesture in the US.

    Sorry for the of topic

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    It's a general issue.
    Way too premature to state this is a general issue affecting all IQ3 100MP MFDBs.

    I count only one MFDB, and even then all the issues have not been investigated nor addressed because it's still in the "send me a file" stage...

    If there is an issue, whether with an individual MFDB or as a whole, I would expect a firmware or software update from Phase One. They seem to be pretty good about that.

    No similarities to Volkswagen or any other fraudulent players. Not even close.

    I'd like to see/hear from others trying to reproduce the same issue, and if evident, what the solution is from dealers/Phase.

    ken

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    I agree Ken.

    Here is the test I'm in the process of running:

    1. Shoot a dark-ish room @ f/5.6, 30 sec, std mode normal latency. Change to Aerial mode, zero latency
    2. Take another shot @ f/32, 16 min.
    3. Take another shot @ f/32, 16 min.

    The first image is just for reference. Hopefully my 5-stop math is correct...

    Based on Doug's comment regarding forcing the back to use the dark frame from the first exposure, it makes a lot of sense to shoot that first frame at an exposure close to what the subsequent shots would be. Even if your exposure was going to be 1 hr, it would be prudent to take a generic dark frame first at that exposure time while you were setting up or driving to the site or whatever.

    Doing it this way eliminates any cast from ND filters, etc. Sure the second and third images will be soft because of f/32, but we don't care about that for this test.

    Dave

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I count only one MFDB, and even then all the issues have not been investigated nor addressed because it's still in the "send me a file" stage...

    ken
    You obviously didn't read this thread. There have been 3 copies of IQ3 100MP involved so far.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Dave's results will be most interesting from this last test.

    I have a feeling personally, that Voidshatter's type of shot was never tested by P1. For them Aerial mode is for use by the Aerial cameras, and none of them would be shooting for 20minutes on a single exposure would they? Thus the back is in spec.

    On the XF, you have to use the LE mode and wait out the same amount of time via the dark frame, (so again more than likely most shooters wanting this type of shot are back on 645z or 35mm) as waiting for 20 extra minutes for the LE mode to finish is just too much of a cost in time and possibly missed opportunities, not to mention added heat build up as the back is working the entire extra 20 minutes.

    Very well may have been just overlooked and is a problem with heat build up or something similar.

    It also may be why there is no video recording possibilities, again due to heat build up? Most Live View via HDMI session would not be anywhere near this long.

    Might very well be just a limitation of 100MP CMOS. At least this generation.

    Paul C

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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    You obviously didn't read this thread. There have been 3 copies of IQ3 100MP involved so far.
    Ok, the sky is falling.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    You obviously didn't read this thread. There have been 3 copies of IQ3 100MP involved so far.
    Yunli,
    I don't think you can count my back in this. Here are my tests.

    Two things of note. First, everything has a green cast because there are windows off to the right and a bunch of very green leaves on trees. Second, there is a reddish tint in the shelves because I had a small light on.

    First, 30 sec f/5.6 shot in normal mode as a reference:


    Second image, 14 min f/32 in normal mode:


    Third image, 15 min f/32 in Aerial mode:


    Note in the third image the sun started to come out so I turned off the light (you don't see the red cast in the shelf). Still I had to reduce the exposure in C1 1/2 stop because there was more light.

    Neither of the images have any WB applied. They are all "as shot". So I see no issues anywhere. Two caveats: First, these are close to "correct" exposures. I'm not pushing exposure or shadows in C1. Second, there are no filters except for the 60xl center filter. I wondered if there is some association with the ND filter on these long exposures, so I am also going to try a shot at f/5.6 but with my HOYA proND64.

    Dave

    PS: It was an overcast day that is now partly cloudy. The variability in filtered light is driving me batty.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Thanks for the tests Dave! It appears that your images are not affected as you described for your darkframe test shot. What would happen if you attempt to push the shadow for both of your 16 minute shots?

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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Not much other than that wonderful grunge look.


    Here is the aerial image pushed 100 shadow:


    And here are the images with the ND64. ~15 min @ f/5.6. Left is normal, right is aerial mode. I dropped the exposure on the "normal" shot. Damn clouds keep changing. But the aerial shot is SOOC:

  48. #48
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Off topic, but I think this test shows that HOYA filter is pretty darn neutral!

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Anybody want to see what diffraction looks like at f/32 vs wide open (sk60xl)?

    davechewphotography.com
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    Re: IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

    Thought I would throw this into the mix..... two images - first taken in normal mode around 15 minutes, second arial mode 15 minutes. As you can see I do not have a red cast issue. No white balance for either image although the first image was about 1.5EV overexposed and I compensated for that.

    Victor
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