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H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

bab

Active member
Hi Torger,

Firstly I would just like to say GREAT article on the linhof techno I read the whole thing and it really informed me a lot about tech cams and getting into tech cams. I actually use your article as a reference for a lot of questions I have.

Interesting you made me look at the 2 files in rawdigger. In rawdigger the H6D-50c has the edge over the pentax 645z the H6d file looks significantly cleaner in rawdigger.
You really need to open and PP somewhat in Phocus the noise in the H should look more like film grain instead of digital grain atleast it does to me. Also if you make a curves adjustment in Phocus the shadows will pull out with better graduation than using PS or LR to make that lifting.
 
I don't know how the 645z works, but on a DSLR (any brand), the noise reduction in camera only applies to in camera jpgs. Thus a raw file should not be affected by in camera settings. (I understand that long exposure noise reduction does have some in camera effects, but it sounds like you are not talking about that).

From 645z raw I have been sent and the tons of reviews, I would agree that Pentax definitely has the best high ISO out of the 50Mp Chip from Sony, which has always surprised me as it would seem that Phase could get closer. Pentax even take the chip to 12000K as I recall.

Back to the OP, with your H6D, are you using the 50MP or 100MP back?

Thanks
Paul C
Yes the Pentax 645Z has better ISO performance than the Phase One options. I've tried to disable all NR options I can find (with Lightroom) and it appears that the 645Z has cooked the raw files to a best degree:

52.jpg
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Paul, I'm not answering for Doug but I didn't read his comment the way you did, he just said that someone mentioned that Phocus does a better job in dealing with shifts than C1 does, and asked whether there was evidence anywhere of this. I honestly didn't read that he was dismissing any problems that Phase cmos owners face, just asking whether there was evidence that Phocus solved the issue for 'blad owners. I think it's a fair question to be honest, if the Hasselblad 50 can shift without issue because Phocus cleans it up then that's a big thing and would be a real advantage for tech cam owners wanting a cmos back who may feel limited by what Phase/C1 can do, nobody knows how the 'blad 100 handles shifts I don't think because I'm not sure anyone has one do they?

Mat
Correct.

Thanks.
 

f8orbust

Active member
P1 Upgrade Pricing: Everyone can get their own pricing terms, I am not going to share mine. P1 trade-in terms are far better than what the H trade-in program would offer for a cross over. Its worth it to get a quote. You might find that the real $$ gap is smaller than what it appears at first.
That right there reminded me of another big positive for H/B - they publish, for all to see, their upgrade pricing. Look, here it is in £/€ and here it is in $. No cloak-and-dagger involved, just there in black and white.

Anybody have a link for P1’s upgrade pricing policy ?

Jim

P.S. Here’s a reasonable question for any P1 dealer reading this - if I walked into your premises with a (working perfectly, low shot count, excellent cosmetic condition, mamiya fit) Credo 60 in my hand, looking to trade it in for an IQ3100 (back only), what would I need to pay ? Just curious.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
P.S. Here’s a reasonable question for any P1 dealer reading this - if I walked into your premises with a (working perfectly, low shot count, excellent cosmetic condition, mamiya fit) Credo 60 in my hand, looking to trade it in for an IQ3100 (back only), what would I need to pay ? Just curious.
In my experience the dealer can quote you the official upgrade price from a list that they have (or at least had when the IQ3 100 was released). You won't be very happy to hear what the official upgrade price is. Then, you can enter into a discussion as to how to get from your Credo 60 -> IQ3 100 and in my experience every dealer is different. Some will go further than others and I will concur with Jamgolf's assertion that it is essential individual pricing as I know personally that different folks that I know have been offered different prices.
 
M

mjr

Guest
That right there reminded me of another big positive for H/B - they publish, for all to see, their upgrade pricing. Look, here it is in £/€ and here it is in $. No cloak-and-dagger involved, just there in black and white.

Anybody have a link for P1’s upgrade pricing policy ?

Jim

P.S. Here’s a reasonable question for any P1 dealer reading this - if I walked into your premises with a (working perfectly, low shot count, excellent cosmetic condition, mamiya fit) Credo 60 in my hand, looking to trade it in for an IQ3100 (back only), what would I need to pay ? Just curious.
Morning

I can only speak for the dealer in my country, there's only 1! When the 3100 was announced I just emailed and asked for upgrade pricing, they sent me back an official Phase PDF with pricing for all current Phase kit including lenses and upgrade pricing for all Phase backs. Pretty easy, no cloak and dagger, they just sent it to me! May be different with other dealers but pretty straight forward here.

Mat
 

tjv

Active member
Some people on this forum are completely delusional about how good the Phase dealer network system is in practice for the vast majority of end users across the world. In my country, the Phase / Leaf dealer is crap and Hasselblad distributor much more on to it. I've had first had experience of this. Out of principle and because of experience I'd go Hasselblad if buying new here, never so called "Team Phase One." (I do own a Leaf back, but I bought it used from an acquaintance.) Besides, worldwide, I see great Hasselblad support in many places. Pro Centre in the UK is just one example. It's good too to see Linhof Studio starting to sell digital backs.

In terms of trade in pricing, I guess it all really depends on the dealer and how far they're willing to cut margins if onselling themselves, or if they're sending back to Phase / Leaf / Hasselblad for "certification" and subsequent onselling. In my experience (relating to no one that posts here I might add,) some dealers act more like stereotypical used car sales people rather than anything like the trusted delear often touted here.
 
M

mjr

Guest
I'm not sure it's being delusional tjv, people can only state their own experience, I actually think my Phase dealer is pretty useless, in contrast my Leica dealer here was unbelievably good, he was available 24/7 and went out of his way to get me sorted when I needed help, my Phase dealer takes days to answer emails which really annoys me. Having a global view on how good or bad dealers are isn't so important, only how your local dealer works for you. The good thing about my dealer is they are very open on pricing and extremely competitive, I saw a post earlier on a thread about current XF and lens pricing and I was amazed, I bought brand new for substantially less than the prices quoted.

Bottom line is that the individuals experience with their own dealer will obviously dictate how positive or negative they are, but if you have a good dealer then how bad other dealers are is of little consequence. I wouldn't stop buying from a good dealer locally based on how bad the dealer is in another country for example.

Mat
 

torger

Active member
Paul, I'm not answering for Doug but I didn't read his comment the way you did, he just said that someone mentioned that Phocus does a better job in dealing with shifts than C1 does, and asked whether there was evidence anywhere of this. I honestly didn't read that he was dismissing any problems that Phase cmos owners face, just asking whether there was evidence that Phocus solved the issue for 'blad owners. I think it's a fair question to be honest, if the Hasselblad 50 can shift without issue because Phocus cleans it up then that's a big thing and would be a real advantage for tech cam owners wanting a cmos back who may feel limited by what Phase/C1 can do, nobody knows how the 'blad 100 handles shifts I don't think because I'm not sure anyone has one do they?

I could be wrong of course!

Mat
In the forums there are relatively few Hasselblad owners, and even fewer that use it with tech cams. Hasselblad as a company has not been as interested in tech cams as Phase One. As a result, there's less information floating around about how Hasselblad + Phocus deals with tech cams.

When it comes to how well the camera hardware handles shifts its up to the sensor, and if it's the same sensor, handling is the same. So the Hasselblad H6D-100c will handle tech cam lenses just as good (or bad if you ask me) as the IQ3 100. In addition to color casts some sensors produce special artifacts that require the LCC algorithm to be specially adapted for the sensor. The Dalsa CCDs had both tiling and microlens ripple, which meant that a normal LCC algorithm would not clean up the file fully. As far as I know only Lumariver HDR and Capture One can deal with Dalsa CCDs in full, that is if you use H4D-60 (the only Dalsa-based Hassy) I suppose shifting can be problematic, but I do know that Sean Conboy has used one for architecture photography so it's not impossible. Personally I haven't tried Phocus LCC algorithm with a H4D-60 so I simply don't know how it behaves, and I doubt any user on this forum knows.

Kodak sensors (most Hasselblad's older backs) and Sony sensors (the new CMOS backs) don't have those special artifacts, and thus work with a standard LCC algorithm. Oh well, there's some very low-level ripple in the Sony's but it's not showing for most people and even C1 doesn't fix that, at least not now. There's of course the crosstalk issue with the Sony CMOS, but noone can correct that so that's just something you have to live with.

I do own a Hasselblad back and use it on a tech cam, but it's a Kodak 50MP sensor (unproblematic) so LCC is no problem at all.

Anyway, the problem is that there's limited knowledge about Phocus for tech camera use on this forum while there is huge amount of knowledge for Phase One backs. Does that mean that Hasselblad H6D-100c + Phocus will work worse? No, in all likelihood it will work just as good, but to be sure one needs to find someone that has tested and just as you say, there's noone that has it yet and use it with a tech cam, at least not on this forum.
 

tjv

Active member
Hi Mat,

Yes, I agree with you entirely. I just wanted to point out that in terms of this forum, which has international user participation, not everyone is lucky to have a Steve or a Doug to go in to bat for us; local / national dealers that sell anywhere near the quantities of equipment they do (I imagine,) or can help solve special use case problems with the efficiency they can (because they have the gear on hand).

Phase makes a big deal about their dealer network and sells it as a plus to end users, but in my part of the world – and going by stories I've heard this is true for other parts of the world, too, as I'm sure it is in parts for Hasselblad's own dealer network – it's actually a disincentive to buy their products. Here, the Phase dealer is simply not responsive.

My thinking echoes yours in that I know this type of gear is very specialised let alone finicky and expensive, and sometimes the better camera – considering they're essentially equal products when assessing output and overall feature sets – is the one that is sold by the company you know will answer the phone and be receptive to questions, both before and after sale. To do that for Phase, I'd have to phone the other side of the world. For Hasselblad, it's a local call for me.

All of this is to say that because there are two respected Phase dealers well represented here, I think people do get a warped idea about how good brand A vs. B is in terms of pre and after sales support. That's really all I'm saying.

(Sorry for the convoluted post!)

I'm not sure it's being delusional tjv, people can only state their own experience, I actually think my Phase dealer is pretty useless, in contrast my Leica dealer here was unbelievably good, he was available 24/7 and went out of his way to get me sorted when I needed help, my Phase dealer takes days to answer emails which really annoys me. Having a global view on how good or bad dealers are isn't so important, only how your local dealer works for you. The good thing about my dealer is they are very open on pricing and extremely competitive, I saw a post earlier on a thread about current XF and lens pricing and I was amazed, I bought brand new for substantially less than the prices quoted.

Bottom line is that the individuals experience with their own dealer will obviously dictate how positive or negative they are, but if you have a good dealer then how bad other dealers are is of little consequence. I wouldn't stop buying from a good dealer locally based on how bad the dealer is in another country for example.

Mat
 
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tjv

Active member
I know that a few well known Hasselblad & tech camera users have been working closely with Hasselblad to improve both the software and hardware for that kind of use. Sean is one of them, so one can only hope they're listening and quitely working away on things. We need someone out there to be a test case for us!

In the forums there are relatively few Hasselblad owners, and even fewer that use it with tech cams. Hasselblad as a company has not been as interested in tech cams as Phase One. As a result, there's less information floating around about how Hasselblad + Phocus deals with tech cams.
 

Jamgolf

Member
... another big positive for H/B - they publish, for all to see, their upgrade pricing... No cloak-and-dagger involved, just there in black and white.
Anybody have a link for P1’s upgrade pricing policy ?
I agree that similar ease of getting an upgrade price from P1 would probably be widely and highly appreciated.
However, as much as I appreciate HB's policy of publishing their upgrade pricing, the offer plain sucks.
$8.5K for IQx50/IQx60/IQx80/Credo60/Credo80 - that is not much of an offer.
P1's offer would be approximately 1.7X to 3.5X of HB offer (depending on model).
So, open pricing policy is very nice but better $$$ trade-in credit is what really matters.

Some people on this forum are completely delusional about how good the Phase dealer network system is in practice for the vast majority of end users across the world. In my country, the Phase / Leaf dealer is crap and Hasselblad distributor much more on to it.
Stating a fact is not being delusional - it's being factual. It's unfortunate that P1 dealer in your vicinity is not to your liking. P1 dealers in the US that I've dealt with are doing better than a very fair job. They are answering questions privately and on the forums, supporting existing and prospective customers, running tests and providing raw files, providing remote demo sessions, or travelling to different cities and offering in person demos. I am appreciative of what they do. At some level people worldwide, including yourself, are benefiting from their presence here and the services they are providing. Hasselblad (or its dealers) are providing no such public service.

Let me add I'm not a P1 fan-boy. In fact other than a Capture One license, my recent IQ3 purchase is the first time I've bought anything P1. Even this IQ3 is in H mount. I've owned far more Hasselblad equipment than Phase... Superachromat 250, 40 CFE/IF, 100/3.5 etc. etc.

Not everyone's experience is the same based on location, circumstances, etc.

Cheers!
 
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tjv

Active member
I agree with you, delusional is too loaded and strong word. (I blame my word choice on lack of sleep.)

In any case, I tried to better articulate my thoughts in a following post.

I agree that similar ease of getting an upgrade price from P1 would probably be widely and highly appreciated.
However, as much as I appreciate HB's policy of publishing their upgrade pricing, the offer plain sucks.
$8.5K for IQx50/IQx60/IQx80/Credo60/Credo80 - that is not much of an offer.
P1's offer would be approximately 1.7X to 3.5X of HB offer (depending on model).
So, open pricing policy is very nice but better $$$ trade-in credit is what really matters.



Stating a fact is not being delusional - it's being factual. It's unfortunate that P1 dealer in your vicinity is not to your liking. P1 dealers in the US that I've dealt with are doing better than a very fair job. They are answering questions privately and on the forums, supporting existing and prospective customers, running tests and providing raw files, providing remote demo sessions, or travelling to different cities and offering in person demos. I am appreciative of what they do. At some level people worldwide, including yourself, are benefiting from their presence here and the services they are providing. Hasselblad (or its dealers) are providing no such public service.

Let me add I'm not a P1 fan-boy. In fact other than a Capture One license, my recent IQ3 purchase is the first time I've bought anything P1. Even this IQ3 is in H mount. I've owned far more Hasselblad equipment than Phase... Superachromat 250, 40 CFE/IF, 100/3.5 etc. etc.

Not everyone's experience is the same based on location, circumstances, etc.

Cheers!
 

bab

Active member
A straightforward video showing the use of a h6d-100 back on a tech cam with live view thru a iPad on location shooting would be a welcome start for me. I have the HTS and use it often but always wanted to go the tech cam route. I'm thinking older Hasselblad company thinking was tech cam sales hurt the HTS and additional lens sales, new management might see now that selling the camera to tech cam users will also produce some additional lens sales. I suggested to some at Hasselblad that they form an alliance with Linhof for example to provide a complete solution! I see Hasselblad now as having the potential to produce a single kit solution for most photographers ala H6D, HTS, TCam and X1D the versitatlity is endless am I the only one who see's this?
 

Jamgolf

Member
Electronic Shutter adds another argument in favor of IQ3-100 vs H6D-100c for technical camera use-case, atleast until Hasselblad implement this for H6D-100c.
 

Jamgolf

Member
For those that don't follow every thread this is discussed here:
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-...se-one-electronic-shutter-full-details-q.html
Just updated to firmware CP3.01.11 and tried the ES option. Seems to work well. I'll do some more testing to figure out the scenarios where ES will be my primary mode and when the Copal shutter will still have to be used. But this is quite a positive development as techcam setup times can now be much improved since users wont have to fiddle with the sync cables anymore (most of the time).

Good job team Phase One :clap:
 

dchew

Well-known member
I'm actually struggling to see when I would use the copal shutter. If the early info is correct about the shutter not being constantly charged like it is in live view, and there are no associated heat or noise issues, then using ES seems to be a more fluid workflow in tandem with live view.

You can go right from the ES screen to live view and back, and you don't have to flip the shutter open and closed in between LV and taking a photo.

The dark frame sequence can be a small hassle, but even when one of those is required the process seems easier.

Dave
 

tjv

Active member
Isn't there potential rolling shutter issues with moving subjects with ES? I was kind of ecstatic about the news until I realised I don't actually own an IQ3 100! Maybe in 5 years I'll be able to afford an upgrade my Credo and keep life in my old Linhof.

I'm actually struggling to see when I would use the copal shutter. If the early info is correct about the shutter not being constantly charged like it is in live view, and there are no associated heat or noise issues, then using ES seems to be a more fluid workflow in tandem with live view.

You can go right from the ES screen to live view and back, and you don't have to flip the shutter open and closed in between LV and taking a photo.

The dark frame sequence can be a small hassle, but even when one of those is required the process seems easier.

Dave
 
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