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Thread: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

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    H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    What do you think would be a better system ? I have a h6d on order but I am being enticed to the iq3100 by the dealers.

    I can get the iq3100 now buthat the h6d is much cheaper.

    And the true focus sounds like a great system. Any thoughts?

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    I'll let the others explain the battery or other things. I just wanted to mention one thing I heard from my friend:

    The current version of Phocus from Hasselblad can (almost or completely) eliminate the vertical bandings (a kind of artifact mostly visible when you shift a tech cam lens to the extreme and push clarity of the sky) with their Scene Calibration function, while the current version of Capture One from Phase One still cannot cure this with their LCC function.

    I have not confirmed this myself. Maybe someone else could help clarify this.

    I've been using Phase One so I can't comment much on the Hasselblad offering. Keep in mind that Alpa and Phase One had collaborated the A-series with official support.

    Spec-wise, they are very similar.
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Hasselblad are giving people H6D50s with a no penalty upgrade to the 100 when they become available just so you know.

    True focus is indeed great and works as advertised.

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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    I had been excited about the announcement of H6D-100 and as a price sensitive buyer I really thought that might be my upgrade path, unless the unlikely announcement of Credo 100 came out of no where.

    Some of the reasons I pulled the trigger for IQ3 100 and did not wait for H6D-100 (very techcam centric):

    1. External Battery: H6D-100 will need an external battery pack for use with a technical camera. IQ3 does not need that.
      Such a battery solution is currently not even available from Hasselblad at this time. Some sort of after market contraption would be needed.
    2. Capture One: It is my preferred RAW conversion and image processing software and I value that - a lot.
      I feel I can get the best output when starting in C1.
    3. Lens Profiles: Capture One has built-in profiles for Rodenstock tech lenses.
    4. LCC Correction: Capture One has LCC creation and application streamlined which is a must for techcam.
    5. P1 5-year warranty: I feel that is important for a purchase of this value.
    6. Dealer Support: May not be important to some but I know Capture Integration (Steve Hendrix) has been and will be there for me if/when needed.
    7. P1 Upgrade Pricing: Upgrading terms from Credo are quite fair and handily beat the Hasselblad's trade-in program offer.
      In the end the perceived large price difference between H6D and IQ3 is not as large as it appears.
    8. Opportunity Cost: IQ3-100 is available now and I have been enjoying using it, whereas H6D-100 deliveries have still not started (to my knowledge)
    9. Known Entity: Both Capture Integration and Digital Transitions have provided extensive testing and have provided files that people have downloaded and tinkered with to form their opinions. On the other extreme, forget about any tests, no RAW files are even available for H6D-100. Yes, the sensor is same/similar as the IQ3-100 but there is a marked difference in the level of data availability. I want to reward the side that works for us. The H team guys made a few posts on the day H6D was announced and then have not been active again.
    10. Digital Back Alone: H6D-100 can not be purchased as a DB alone. If that was possible, it would've made the pricing much more attractive for me and could've tilted the decision in the other direction. I think that is a poor strategy on Hasselblad's part.


    Post purchase, my impressions are super positive. I have had the chance to use it and am absolutely satisfied with my decision. I have used some amount of rise/fall + shift + tilt in almost every exposure and the LCC is cleaning up the color casts quite well. I am happy about essentially everything about it.

    Hope this helps.
    Cheers!
    Last edited by Jamgolf; 20th July 2016 at 08:56.
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Thanks for the honest answers fellas, I am actually receiving the h6d-50c body tomorrow. So I wanted to make sure I want to keep it before opening it up etc.

    What do you think is a better software phocus or phase one? I am getting the MF mainly for the tech cam usage. Is the LCC process relatively easy to perform in phocus?

    Does the mirror slap on the XF make images blurry? I would assume its not a problem with the leaf shutter lenses. I have had some problems on my 645z with mirror slap shaking the camera.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    Thanks for the honest answers fellas, I am actually receiving the h6d-50c body tomorrow. So I wanted to make sure I want to keep it before opening it up etc.

    What do you think is a better software phocus or phase one? I am getting the MF mainly for the tech cam usage. Is the LCC process relatively easy to perform in phocus?

    Does the mirror slap on the XF make images blurry? I would assume its not a problem with the leaf shutter lenses. I have had some problems on my 645z with mirror slap shaking the camera.

    C1 is a much better featured piece of software. Phocus is really just a (very good) way to get your RAWs into Photoshop or Lightroom.

    Yes LCC (aka scene calibration) is very easy to do in Phocus.

    Xfs have a function to wait for the camera to settle after the mirror goes up, Hasselblad have a mirror delay and of course a mirror lockup so no difference between the two if you are using leaf shutters.

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Hi,

    What you may consider is that you need a 16 bit TIFF file to hold most info from a raw file. Raw files are efficiently coded. Raw files have one colour for each pixel while TIFFs have three colours per pixel. So TIFFs are 3-6 times the size of RAW.

    Capture One and for that part Lightroom allows for parametric workflow, so all work is done from the raw file.

    If you work most of your files in Photoshop, it doesn't really matter as Photoshop also works with fully demosaiced files, basically 16-bit TIFFs.

    Best regards
    Erik




    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    C1 is a much better featured piece of software. Phocus is really just a (very good) way to get your RAWs into Photoshop or Lightroom.

    Yes LCC (aka scene calibration) is very easy to do in Phocus.

    Xfs have a function to wait for the camera to settle after the mirror goes up, Hasselblad have a mirror delay and of course a mirror lockup so no difference between the two if you are using leaf shutters.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    I'll let the others explain the battery or other things. I just wanted to mention one thing I heard from my friend:

    The current version of Phocus from Hasselblad can (almost or completely) eliminate the vertical bandings (a kind of artifact mostly visible when you shift a tech cam lens to the extreme and push clarity of the sky) with their Scene Calibration function, while the current version of Capture One from Phase One still cannot cure this with their LCC function.

    I have not confirmed this myself. Maybe someone else could help clarify this.

    I've been using Phase One so I can't comment much on the Hasselblad offering. Keep in mind that Alpa and Phase One had collaborated the A-series with official support.

    Spec-wise, they are very similar.

    It's sad if Phocus can account for this and C1 after almost 3 years still can't. One of the reasons, I use tech less now as I use P1 CMOS.
    I pointed this issue to my dealer when I tried the IQ150 as I saw it on shifts of 5mm or more immediately on a blue sky. I know that the dealer took the issue to Phase, and I have been told that the issue came up again with discussions on the IQ100, but still no fix from P1. The issue was very clear in the early shots provided by Alpa, (building and blue sky). The banding is not as ridge as micro lens ripple, but is there and as Void mentions, worsens with any contrast or clarity applied to the sky or if you make a B&W conversion.

    The only fix I found that helps is using Topaz Defocus, as they have a debanding algorithm, that helps to remove some of the banding.

    Paul C

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    Thanks for the honest answers fellas, I am actually receiving the h6d-50c body tomorrow. So I wanted to make sure I want to keep it before opening it up etc.

    What do you think is a better software phocus or phase one? I am getting the MF mainly for the tech cam usage. Is the LCC process relatively easy to perform in phocus?

    Does the mirror slap on the XF make images blurry? I would assume its not a problem with the leaf shutter lenses. I have had some problems on my 645z with mirror slap shaking the camera.
    Focal Plan lenses on the XF/IQ3-100 system take advantage of an Electronic First Curtain Shutter. Below is off of Phase One's website explaining it.
    Continuing on our path to provide uncompromised image quality, we are pleased to provide EFCS technology with the Phase One 100MP Camera System. The addition of “Electronic First Curtain Shutter” to the XF 100MP Camera System means a further reduction in adverse vibration effects on high-resolution images. The benefit of EFCS is a significant reduction in camera vibration as it allows less mechanical dependency, which greatly improves sharpness when using shutter speeds that demand the steadiest conditions. The EFCS is worry free as it automatically activates when using Vibration Delay or activating Mirror Up. With such a significant increase in resolution, we’re proud to provide the tools and technologies that ensure the best image quality is delivered.



    L

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    A big plus for HB is that they now have a mirrorless system that you can mount HC/D lenses to (via an adapter).

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Lens Profiles: Capture One has built-in profiles for Rodenstock and Schneider tech lenses?

    I don't think so. It has profiles for Rodenstock tech lenses, but not Schneiders.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    It's sad if Phocus can account for this and C1 after almost 3 years still can't...
    I wonder if there is any way to convert IIQ -> 3FR so that they can be taken into Phocus ?

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamgolf View Post
    Lens Profiles: Capture One has built-in profiles for Rodenstock and Schneider tech lenses.
    That's more to do with correcting distortion; since the Schneider's are virtually distortion free, profiles are not really needed.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Lens Profiles: Capture One has built-in profiles for Rodenstock and Schneider tech lenses?

    I don't think so. It has profiles for Rodenstock tech lenses, but not Schneiders.
    In that case I stand corrected
    It does have profiles for a lot of lenses from several different manufacturers.
    Its surprizing that Schneider tech lenses are missing.
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    That's more to do with correcting distortion; since the Schneider's are virtually distortion free, profiles are not really needed.
    May be thats why Schneider tech lens profiles are absent... (I was just reminded)
    In any case, SK have exited the techcam lens market and Rodenstock lens profiles ARE present.
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    1. External Battery: H6D-100 will need an external battery pack for use with a technical camera. IQ3 does not need that.
      Such a battery solution is currently not even available from Hasselblad at this time. Some sort of after market contraption would be needed.
      Can argue this either way. An external battery allows high capacity / oversize / cable-connected batteries to be used.
    2. Capture One: It is my preferred RAW conversion and image processing software and I value that - a lot.
      I feel I can get the best output when starting in C1.
      Sounds like on a tech cam, on a single image basis, Phocus now has the edge. Though overall, C1 has more feature (e.g. catalogues, sessions etc.)
    3. Lens Profiles: Capture One has built-in profiles for Rodenstock and Schneider tech lenses.
      S/K tech lenses don't need them.
    4. LCC Correction: Capture One has LCC creation and application streamlined which is a must for techcam.
      So does Phocus.
    5. P1 5-year warranty: I feel that is important for a purchase of this value.
      They took ~20 years to do this by default, but agree it's great to have (you could argue of course that you pay for it in the higher purchase price); HB is 36 months if you register by September, 24 otherwise.
    6. Dealer Support: May not be important to some but I know Capture Integration (Steve Hendrix) has been and will be there for me if/when needed.
      Don't know the differences here between the HB and P1 network. Plenty of pros use both, so I imagine it's not night and day. Granted, P1 dealers are more involved in fora such as this.
    7. P1 Upgrade Pricing: Upgrading terms from Credo are quite fair and handily beat the Hasselblad's trade-in program offer. In the end the perceived large price difference between H6D and IQ3 is not as large as it appears.
      I guess with the Credo you got a 60% discount (based on MP) ? So the IQ3100 was ~$17.5k ? The H/B would be ~$23.5k (which includes a body and lens). So, P1 is a smaller $ deal (if you got a 60% discount on the Credo...), but (arguably) the HB is a better deal given what you actually get.
    8. Opportunity Cost: IQ3-100 is available now and I have been enjoying using it, whereas H6D-100 deliveries have still not started (to my knowledge)
      Although the IQ3-100 is technically available now, you could be waiting 4 - 5 months to get one due to sensor fabrication issues in Japan (according to the CI website).
    9. Known Entity: Both Capture Integration and Digital Transitions have provided extensive testing and have provided files that people have downloaded and tinkered with to form their opinions. On the other extreme, forget about any tests, no RAW files are even available for H6D-100. Yes, the sensor is same/similar as the IQ3-100 but there is a marked difference in the level of data availability. I want to reward the side that works for us. The H team guys made a few posts on the day H6D was announced and then have not been active again.
      No contest, since the HB isn't yet available. But $1 says the sensor behaves - for all intents and purposes - almost identically.
    10. Digital Back Alone: H6D-100 can not be purchased as a DB alone. If that was possible, it would've made the pricing much more attractive for me and could've tilted the decision in the other direction. I think that is a poor strategy on Hasselblad's part. Why would they not sell the digital back alone.
      Agree, it would make sense to be able to buy the DB alone, but not a deal breaker; just sell the body.


    Jim

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    That's more to do with correcting distortion; since the Schneider's are virtually distortion free, profiles are not really needed.
    Absolutely correct in that the Schneider Wide's are virtually distortion free. That's the main reason I keep my 35XL. The use of lens profiles for lens distortion correction in ANY raw developer is very pixel destructive since a lot of resampling has to take place. This also holds true if the lens distortion is corrected in post. What's the sense of having all of those pixels just to throw a lot of them away to correct for lens distortion?

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    There is a vague reference in this thread to Phocus improving its handling of tech camera wides when combined with Sony sensors.

    Does anyone have documentation, official references, or photos to show this? It does not match anything I'm aware of (which of course doesn't mean it's not true, only that the only reference I have seen anywhere is one comment in this thread).
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Doug, that is a vague statement. Not sure if you are referring to my comment as vague or not, however I have plenty of images and evidence of this problem.

    Are you not aware of the fact that if you shift past 5mm on any current Phase One CMOS back, you will see a faint banding, more like streaking? Or are you not aware if Hasselblad is aware of this issue and has addressed it something that Phase one has not done.

    I know for a fact, that Phase One is aware of the issue of the streaking, as I personally work on this issue with Phase One last year of a period of over 1 month, via my dealer. Phase's never gave me a anything more than "yes we see it". No official answer was ever given back to me and thus I stayed away from the 50MP backs.

    When the IQ100 was announced, Phase One's Part Alpa published several pictures, (you could download the full sized images, not the raw from their site) showing the IQ100 in use with an Alpa camera. One of these series of shots, showed a building with about 12 to 15mm of shift, with a pure blue sky. When I looked at the image, it was clear that the 100MP back has the same issue i.e. faint streaking in solid areas. It is not as noticeable as classic micro lens ripple, however it's clearly there. If you convert the same image to B&W, you can see the problem even better.

    This can be easily reproduced with my IQ100, with the 40mm HR-W and shifting with a solid blue sky.

    My point was that I was one of the photographers, who along with my dealer, CI, brought this issue to the attention of Phase One in April of 2015, net P1 is aware of this, and agreed at that time, it was not due to my equipment, as it could be replicated by them. It's clear that nothing was done to fix it with the current LCC process with the IQ100 as the problem is still there. I am also of the impression that this issue has again been brought to Phase One, but as of yet they have not made any formal statements as to if this process can be removed in the future. At the time of the case I had opened to P1, I mentioned to them that the only thing I found that would resolve it was using the Topaz tool Denoise after the file had been processed in C1 as it removed a lot of it in the demanding tool. If you like clarity and saturation in your work, as I do, it will make the issue much more noticeable.

    You may see this as a nit, and that I am being picky, so be it. However it's real, not vague and unless newer backs that have again started shipping since the earthquake have been changed, you can replicate the issue with any wide tech lens shifted past 5mm.

    Paul C

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Paul, I'm not answering for Doug but I didn't read his comment the way you did, he just said that someone mentioned that Phocus does a better job in dealing with shifts than C1 does, and asked whether there was evidence anywhere of this. I honestly didn't read that he was dismissing any problems that Phase cmos owners face, just asking whether there was evidence that Phocus solved the issue for 'blad owners. I think it's a fair question to be honest, if the Hasselblad 50 can shift without issue because Phocus cleans it up then that's a big thing and would be a real advantage for tech cam owners wanting a cmos back who may feel limited by what Phase/C1 can do, nobody knows how the 'blad 100 handles shifts I don't think because I'm not sure anyone has one do they?

    I could be wrong of course!

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post

    Are you not aware of the fact that if you shift past 5mm on any current Phase One CMOS back, you will see a faint banding, more like streaking? Or are you not aware if Hasselblad is aware of this issue and has addressed it something that Phase one has not done.


    Paul C
    Sorry for the maybe ignorant questions, but I still try to understand technical cameras and the problems with CMOS backs:

    Are this banding issues the reason that Phase One in their A-Series only offers the Alpa TC-12 with no Shift and Tilt functionality?
    And what is the point of the A-series if it has no shift or tilt function?

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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Jim

    The points I listed were to state why "I" decided in favor of IQ3 100 - they apply to ME.

    I did not want to in-line your in-lined comments, so...
    External Battery: Having a battery contraption dangling from a camera while you stand in a stream or other precarious location is not an advantage for me. It is decidedly a disadvantage. Also in my experience, even in cold weather the battery life in IQ3 100 is very good.
    RAW Converter: Sounds like you prefer Phocus but for me the clear choice is Capture One.
    Lens Profiles: The point I was making is that lens profiles exist in C1 - not that such and such lens needs it or not.
    5 Year Warranty: Regardless of history, today P1 offers a 5 year warranty which is 3 years more than HB.
    Dealer Support: Differences are clear. I can email/call and get an answer/help almost immediately. Buying even from a reputable retailer like B&H - I don't think I'll get the same type of response. B&H has great return policy but they are not focused on Hasselblad alone. I value this, someone else may not value it as much as I do. But this difference is real.
    P1 Upgrade Pricing: Everyone can get their own pricing terms, I am not going to share mine. P1 trade-in terms are far better than what the H trade-in program would offer for a cross over. Its worth it to get a quote. You might find that the real $$ gap is smaller than what it appears at first.
    Opportunity Cost: The wait times are not 4-5 months. The deliveries have picked up and wait times have decreased.
    Known Entity: I sense a dual standard here. If Phase One dealers did not provide the test files, data and the level of transparency they would be getting killed on the forums. Heck they still get criticized even after providing those services. The H team is providing squat and is getting a huge pass. I hope H team appreciates it. I am simply not willing to buy a product at this price point without looking at the files and without any scrutiny.
    Digital Back Alone: Personally I do not want to buy a product and sell the unwanted pieces. Its a hassle. It also normally means a $$ loss.

    Again - what I expressed was my thought process which lead me to my purchase decision.
    Obviously everyone will form one's own informed decision based on things that are meaningful individually.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Jamgolf; 20th July 2016 at 13:19.
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Question:

    Is there a difference between the CCD and CMOS banding ? I mean it's not new. The IQ180 had it when shifting. However, as much as I remember it cleans up really good when using the LCC with the "wide angle" option.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamgolf View Post
    The points I listed were to state why "I" decided in favor of IQ3 100 - they apply to ME...
    If you’d made those points in a thread entitled, ‘Why I bought an IQ3100’ I wouldn’t have commented. But you didn’t.

    This was (and still is) a thread about deciding between two systems, and your post - naturally - read as an argument in favor of one. Seems only fair - given the nature of the thread - to offer a balancing opinion in order to help the OP decide. I didn’t need to use your post, but since you made a number of great points it seemed like a useful framework.

    J'ai terminé mon plaidoyer.

    Jim

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    If you’d made those points in a thread entitled, ‘Why I bought an IQ3100’ I wouldn’t have commented. But you didn’t.

    This was (and still is) a thread about deciding between two systems, and your post - naturally - read as an argument in favor of one. Seems only fair - given the nature of the thread - to offer a balancing opinion in order to help the OP decide. I didn’t need to use your post, but since you made a number of great points it seemed like a useful framework.

    J'ai terminé mon plaidoyer.

    Jim

    OK - no worries. Balanced opinions are good.
    Although right before my points I said "Some of the reasons I pulled the trigger for IQ3 100"
    That kinda sounds very similar to your proposed thread title "Why I bought an IQ3100"
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Question:

    Is there a difference between the CCD and CMOS banding ? I mean it's not new. The IQ180 had it when shifting. However, as much as I remember it cleans up really good when using the LCC with the "wide angle" option.

    The banding you've seen on the IQ180 is more straight vertical bands, which, as you state, do correct well with LCC (and "wide angle lens" options checked. The CMOS backs exhibit more of a "drizzly", random sort of banding, and up to this point, this does not completely correct in some cases with LCC. Obviously it would be easier to write an algorithmic fix for a predictable, fixed, straight vertical band than a random, drizzly band. As a result, a solution hasn't yet been implemented in Capture One to fully remedy this anomaly, but I am hopeful that we'll see one.


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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    No I would love to see a side by side test with focus and capture one. Well I know won't happen.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by siddhaarta View Post
    Sorry for the maybe ignorant questions, but I still try to understand technical cameras and the problems with CMOS backs:

    Are this banding issues the reason that Phase One in their A-Series only offers the Alpa TC-12 with no Shift and Tilt functionality?
    And what is the point of the A-series if it has no shift or tilt function?

    The point of the A-Series is that even with no tilt or shift, lenses can exhibit color cast, and the A-Series has an embedded LCC profile that can be utilized in camera to account for this, rather than creating an LCC to account for it later. There's some merit there, but keep in mind that creating an LCC also gives you the potential to easily correct for dust on the IR Filter in Capture One, while the embedded LCC does not.

    I imagine, (only imagine!), that there is the possibility in the future the embedded LCC concept could be expanded, and shift models might be incorporated.

    But for now, other than the cosmetic branding and the pre-selected "kits", if you don't care about the embedded LCC for a non shifting Alpa camera, you have the other option of purchasing an Alpa TC Camera (or an Alpa shifting model) with whatever accessories or items you choose around the camera itself without purchasing an A-Series kit (through an Alpa dealer).


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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Got my h6d today.

    Testing out the camera, the user interface and controls seem great very simple to use.

    One thing I was surprised at is how much more noisy the files are compared to my 645z files. I could use 6400 in the 645z without even thinking. It does not seem to be the case on the h6d. I will have to run it through phocus to see more results.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    Got my h6d today.

    Testing out the camera, the user interface and controls seem great very simple to use.

    One thing I was surprised at is how much more noisy the files are compared to my 645z files. I could use 6400 in the 645z without even thinking. It does not seem to be the case on the h6d. I will have to run it through phocus to see more results.

    With the same noise reduction settings? How do they compare with noise reduction turned off?


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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Yes I had suspected that initially and went and turned offrom all NR on the pentax. The h6d doesn't seem to have a setting for NR.

    The pentax is still miles ahead imo.

    I haven't had a chance to put it onto a computer yet as my power company has decided to black out my neighborhood just waiting for it to come back on.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Isn't really surprising. I'm on the road and can't check for it. However, I always did not get what Pentax did with the 50 chip as it has less noise then either the hassi or phase version.
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    But you haven't opened in Phocus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    Yes I had suspected that initially and went and turned offrom all NR on the pentax. The h6d doesn't seem to have a setting for NR.

    The pentax is still miles ahead imo.

    I haven't had a chance to put it onto a computer yet as my power company has decided to black out my neighborhood just waiting for it to come back on.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    But you haven't opened in Phocus?
    So I just had a chance to view both in lightroom and compare on my computer. After disabling NR on the 645z and matching both exposure equally I would say the pentax still has a very slight edge.

    But really the noise just looks different from one and the other.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    I don't know how the 645z works, but on a DSLR (any brand), the noise reduction in camera only applies to in camera jpgs. Thus a raw file should not be affected by in camera settings. (I understand that long exposure noise reduction does have some in camera effects, but it sounds like you are not talking about that).

    From 645z raw I have been sent and the tons of reviews, I would agree that Pentax definitely has the best high ISO out of the 50Mp Chip from Sony, which has always surprised me as it would seem that Phase could get closer. Pentax even take the chip to 12000K as I recall.

    Back to the OP, with your H6D, are you using the 50MP or 100MP back?

    Thanks
    Paul C

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    Yes I had suspected that initially and went and turned offrom all NR on the pentax. The h6d doesn't seem to have a setting for NR.

    The pentax is still miles ahead imo.

    I haven't had a chance to put it onto a computer yet as my power company has decided to black out my neighborhood just waiting for it to come back on.

    If you haven't imported the files into your computer and viewed them in raw processing software with the noise reduction tools zeroed, then I think the findings are very premature. I'm not questioning which should be the winner, I'm only questioning that a winner is presumed from only looking at the files in the capture device before raw processing on your computer.

    Interested to see how they compare a bit further downstream!


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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I don't know how the 645z works, but on a DSLR (any brand), the noise reduction in camera only applies to in camera jpgs. Thus a raw file should not be affected by in camera settings. (I understand that long exposure noise reduction does have some in camera effects, but it sounds like you are not talking about that).

    From 645z raw I have been sent and the tons of reviews, I would agree that Pentax definitely has the best high ISO out of the 50Mp Chip from Sony, which has always surprised me as it would seem that Phase could get closer. Pentax even take the chip to 12000K as I recall.

    Back to the OP, with your H6D, are you using the 50MP or 100MP back?

    Thanks
    Paul C
    Hi Paul,

    I just received the h6d-50c I have the 100c on order just waiting for it. Will trade up to the 100c when it is available so they are letting people have the 50c now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    If you haven't imported the files into your computer and viewed them in raw processing software with the noise reduction tools zeroed, then I think the findings are very premature. I'm not questioning which should be the winner, I'm only questioning that a winner is presumed from only looking at the files in the capture device before raw processing on your computer.

    Interested to see how they compare a bit further downstream!


    Steve Hendrix/CI
    Hi Steve,

    I had done some analysis last night the noise is similar in quantity but the look is just different. (I was able to get them on to my computer after the power was restored)

    I would still say the pentax has a slight edge imo. But not as much as I had initially thought.

    It was a bit concerning for me as I used to use the pentax like a DSLR hand held when needed. But I am a bit at ease now.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Comparing in Lightroom or most other raw converters too is a bit treacherous, as 1) disabling noise reduction might not actually mean that all noise reduction is disabled and 2) exposure = 0 may mean different things between cameras depending on headroom differences etc. I'm a bit rusty on Lightroom/DNG so I can't go into specifics now, but I would be careful before coming to conclusions.

    To make really fair comparisons about camera hardware capability you should use a tool like RawDigger, and to make fair end result comparisons you should use the native converters for both, and to make a relevant comparison you should use your intended workflow for both

    I would not be surprised though if the Pentax 645z has a very slight edge. Although hardware design outside the sensor matters a lot less now with CMOS than it did with CCDs, I guess heat from surrounding electronics etc can still make image noise vary between manufacturers despite the same Sony CMOS being used. Hasselblad is good at many things, but that does not include being market leading in low noise hardware, at least not in the CCD days.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    Hi Paul,

    I just received the h6d-50c I have the 100c on order just waiting for it. Will trade up to the 100c when it is available so they are letting people have the 50c now.



    Hi Steve,

    I had done some analysis last night the noise is similar in quantity but the look is just different. (I was able to get them on to my computer after the power was restored)

    I would still say the pentax has a slight edge imo. But not as much as I had initially thought.

    It was a bit concerning for me as I used to use the pentax like a DSLR hand held when needed. But I am a bit at ease now.

    Good to know - thanks for the follow up.



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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Comparing in Lightroom or most other raw converters too is a bit treacherous, as 1) disabling noise reduction might not actually mean that all noise reduction is disabled and 2) exposure = 0 may mean different things between cameras depending on headroom differences etc. I'm a bit rusty on Lightroom/DNG so I can't go into specifics now, but I would be careful before coming to conclusions.

    To make really fair comparisons about camera hardware capability you should use a tool like RawDigger, and to make fair end result comparisons you should use the native converters for both, and to make a relevant comparison you should use your intended workflow for both

    I would not be surprised though if the Pentax 645z has a very slight edge. Although hardware design outside the sensor matters a lot less now with CMOS than it did with CCDs, I guess heat from surrounding electronics etc can still make image noise vary between manufacturers despite the same Sony CMOS being used. Hasselblad is good at many things, but that does not include being market leading in low noise hardware, at least not in the CCD days.
    Hi Torger,

    Firstly I would just like to say GREAT article on the linhof techno I read the whole thing and it really informed me a lot about tech cams and getting into tech cams. I actually use your article as a reference for a lot of questions I have.

    Interesting you made me look at the 2 files in rawdigger. In rawdigger the H6D-50c has the edge over the pentax 645z the H6d file looks significantly cleaner in rawdigger.
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boinger View Post
    Hi Torger,

    Firstly I would just like to say GREAT article on the linhof techno I read the whole thing and it really informed me a lot about tech cams and getting into tech cams. I actually use your article as a reference for a lot of questions I have.

    Interesting you made me look at the 2 files in rawdigger. In rawdigger the H6D-50c has the edge over the pentax 645z the H6d file looks significantly cleaner in rawdigger.
    You really need to open and PP somewhat in Phocus the noise in the H should look more like film grain instead of digital grain atleast it does to me. Also if you make a curves adjustment in Phocus the shadows will pull out with better graduation than using PS or LR to make that lifting.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I don't know how the 645z works, but on a DSLR (any brand), the noise reduction in camera only applies to in camera jpgs. Thus a raw file should not be affected by in camera settings. (I understand that long exposure noise reduction does have some in camera effects, but it sounds like you are not talking about that).

    From 645z raw I have been sent and the tons of reviews, I would agree that Pentax definitely has the best high ISO out of the 50Mp Chip from Sony, which has always surprised me as it would seem that Phase could get closer. Pentax even take the chip to 12000K as I recall.

    Back to the OP, with your H6D, are you using the 50MP or 100MP back?

    Thanks
    Paul C
    Yes the Pentax 645Z has better ISO performance than the Phase One options. I've tried to disable all NR options I can find (with Lightroom) and it appears that the 645Z has cooked the raw files to a best degree:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Paul, I'm not answering for Doug but I didn't read his comment the way you did, he just said that someone mentioned that Phocus does a better job in dealing with shifts than C1 does, and asked whether there was evidence anywhere of this. I honestly didn't read that he was dismissing any problems that Phase cmos owners face, just asking whether there was evidence that Phocus solved the issue for 'blad owners. I think it's a fair question to be honest, if the Hasselblad 50 can shift without issue because Phocus cleans it up then that's a big thing and would be a real advantage for tech cam owners wanting a cmos back who may feel limited by what Phase/C1 can do, nobody knows how the 'blad 100 handles shifts I don't think because I'm not sure anyone has one do they?

    Mat
    Correct.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamgolf View Post
    P1 Upgrade Pricing: Everyone can get their own pricing terms, I am not going to share mine. P1 trade-in terms are far better than what the H trade-in program would offer for a cross over. Its worth it to get a quote. You might find that the real $$ gap is smaller than what it appears at first.
    That right there reminded me of another big positive for H/B - they publish, for all to see, their upgrade pricing. Look, here it is in £/€ and here it is in $. No cloak-and-dagger involved, just there in black and white.

    Anybody have a link for P1’s upgrade pricing policy ?

    Jim

    P.S. Here’s a reasonable question for any P1 dealer reading this - if I walked into your premises with a (working perfectly, low shot count, excellent cosmetic condition, mamiya fit) Credo 60 in my hand, looking to trade it in for an IQ3100 (back only), what would I need to pay ? Just curious.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    P.S. Here’s a reasonable question for any P1 dealer reading this - if I walked into your premises with a (working perfectly, low shot count, excellent cosmetic condition, mamiya fit) Credo 60 in my hand, looking to trade it in for an IQ3100 (back only), what would I need to pay ? Just curious.
    In my experience the dealer can quote you the official upgrade price from a list that they have (or at least had when the IQ3 100 was released). You won't be very happy to hear what the official upgrade price is. Then, you can enter into a discussion as to how to get from your Credo 60 -> IQ3 100 and in my experience every dealer is different. Some will go further than others and I will concur with Jamgolf's assertion that it is essential individual pricing as I know personally that different folks that I know have been offered different prices.
    Ylem ...

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    That right there reminded me of another big positive for H/B - they publish, for all to see, their upgrade pricing. Look, here it is in £/€ and here it is in $. No cloak-and-dagger involved, just there in black and white.

    Anybody have a link for P1’s upgrade pricing policy ?

    Jim

    P.S. Here’s a reasonable question for any P1 dealer reading this - if I walked into your premises with a (working perfectly, low shot count, excellent cosmetic condition, mamiya fit) Credo 60 in my hand, looking to trade it in for an IQ3100 (back only), what would I need to pay ? Just curious.
    Morning

    I can only speak for the dealer in my country, there's only 1! When the 3100 was announced I just emailed and asked for upgrade pricing, they sent me back an official Phase PDF with pricing for all current Phase kit including lenses and upgrade pricing for all Phase backs. Pretty easy, no cloak and dagger, they just sent it to me! May be different with other dealers but pretty straight forward here.

    Mat

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Some people on this forum are completely delusional about how good the Phase dealer network system is in practice for the vast majority of end users across the world. In my country, the Phase / Leaf dealer is crap and Hasselblad distributor much more on to it. I've had first had experience of this. Out of principle and because of experience I'd go Hasselblad if buying new here, never so called "Team Phase One." (I do own a Leaf back, but I bought it used from an acquaintance.) Besides, worldwide, I see great Hasselblad support in many places. Pro Centre in the UK is just one example. It's good too to see Linhof Studio starting to sell digital backs.

    In terms of trade in pricing, I guess it all really depends on the dealer and how far they're willing to cut margins if onselling themselves, or if they're sending back to Phase / Leaf / Hasselblad for "certification" and subsequent onselling. In my experience (relating to no one that posts here I might add,) some dealers act more like stereotypical used car sales people rather than anything like the trusted delear often touted here.
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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    I'm not sure it's being delusional tjv, people can only state their own experience, I actually think my Phase dealer is pretty useless, in contrast my Leica dealer here was unbelievably good, he was available 24/7 and went out of his way to get me sorted when I needed help, my Phase dealer takes days to answer emails which really annoys me. Having a global view on how good or bad dealers are isn't so important, only how your local dealer works for you. The good thing about my dealer is they are very open on pricing and extremely competitive, I saw a post earlier on a thread about current XF and lens pricing and I was amazed, I bought brand new for substantially less than the prices quoted.

    Bottom line is that the individuals experience with their own dealer will obviously dictate how positive or negative they are, but if you have a good dealer then how bad other dealers are is of little consequence. I wouldn't stop buying from a good dealer locally based on how bad the dealer is in another country for example.

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    Re: H6d-100c or xf iq3100 for camera and tech cam use?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Paul, I'm not answering for Doug but I didn't read his comment the way you did, he just said that someone mentioned that Phocus does a better job in dealing with shifts than C1 does, and asked whether there was evidence anywhere of this. I honestly didn't read that he was dismissing any problems that Phase cmos owners face, just asking whether there was evidence that Phocus solved the issue for 'blad owners. I think it's a fair question to be honest, if the Hasselblad 50 can shift without issue because Phocus cleans it up then that's a big thing and would be a real advantage for tech cam owners wanting a cmos back who may feel limited by what Phase/C1 can do, nobody knows how the 'blad 100 handles shifts I don't think because I'm not sure anyone has one do they?

    I could be wrong of course!

    Mat
    In the forums there are relatively few Hasselblad owners, and even fewer that use it with tech cams. Hasselblad as a company has not been as interested in tech cams as Phase One. As a result, there's less information floating around about how Hasselblad + Phocus deals with tech cams.

    When it comes to how well the camera hardware handles shifts its up to the sensor, and if it's the same sensor, handling is the same. So the Hasselblad H6D-100c will handle tech cam lenses just as good (or bad if you ask me) as the IQ3 100. In addition to color casts some sensors produce special artifacts that require the LCC algorithm to be specially adapted for the sensor. The Dalsa CCDs had both tiling and microlens ripple, which meant that a normal LCC algorithm would not clean up the file fully. As far as I know only Lumariver HDR and Capture One can deal with Dalsa CCDs in full, that is if you use H4D-60 (the only Dalsa-based Hassy) I suppose shifting can be problematic, but I do know that Sean Conboy has used one for architecture photography so it's not impossible. Personally I haven't tried Phocus LCC algorithm with a H4D-60 so I simply don't know how it behaves, and I doubt any user on this forum knows.

    Kodak sensors (most Hasselblad's older backs) and Sony sensors (the new CMOS backs) don't have those special artifacts, and thus work with a standard LCC algorithm. Oh well, there's some very low-level ripple in the Sony's but it's not showing for most people and even C1 doesn't fix that, at least not now. There's of course the crosstalk issue with the Sony CMOS, but noone can correct that so that's just something you have to live with.

    I do own a Hasselblad back and use it on a tech cam, but it's a Kodak 50MP sensor (unproblematic) so LCC is no problem at all.

    Anyway, the problem is that there's limited knowledge about Phocus for tech camera use on this forum while there is huge amount of knowledge for Phase One backs. Does that mean that Hasselblad H6D-100c + Phocus will work worse? No, in all likelihood it will work just as good, but to be sure one needs to find someone that has tested and just as you say, there's noone that has it yet and use it with a tech cam, at least not on this forum.

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