Workflow Problem: 80mp vs 4x5 vs 120 film

[ocarlo]

Re: Workflow Problem: Samples

Very sheepishly putting back the samples.

 

[ocarlo]

Large Format 8x20"
http://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/820.html

someday maybe. Yes, I've done the required drooling over it.
Unfortunately, unless I had an army of assistants each lighting a person,
it wouldn't work. cheers.

 

[jerome_m]

Tell me if I understood correctly:
-you are taking panoramic pictures with people
-you are stitching individual images
-each individual image is lit separately, assistants may move the lights between images
-you want more resolution than what your P45 is capable of (39 mpix), to print 3 feet tall (0.9m).

For the final print to be 3" tall, you would need about 7200 pixels vertically to print at 200dpi. The IQ180 is 10328 x 7760, so that would work if you just pan horizontally and take individual pictures in the "landscape" orientation.

Can you take individual pictures in the portrait orientation? Can you stitch more than one row?

 

[ocarlo]

Tell me if I understood correctly:
-you are taking panoramic pictures with people

Yes. I imagine a grouping of people. As in the very long sample, you could say this group is a kind of village council
of the area that the warlord controls as his main base. I then find a location that can give me a sense of their environment,
but is not my primary consideration. My main thing is doing individual portraits. By sprinkling them around, at different depths,
and in mini-groupings, I also then get relationships to each other, or against each other, while getting a sense of their physical world.
while allowing me to spread them out, and create ini-groupings that speak of relationships.

-you are stitching individual images
-each individual image is lit separately, assistants may move the lights between images

Yes. Here's me flying by the seat of my pants.
Once I've got the sub-groupings in my head, I place them in their spots and place markers,
now having the full spread clear in my head.
then clear everybody out.
My tripod is placed center to the imagined final frame from left to right.
I compose for vertical, and then do a pass of individual frames overlapping, from L to R. - once with infinity in focus
and another pass with the space in between my closest subject, and infinity.
I had no sense of how I would deal with different planes of focus, and hoped that exposing for strobe,
held on a boom overhead each subject, would give me depth of field. If not, I'd layer in from the focus layers below.
I then repeat the process, shooting only one person at a time, from L to R, until I get to the overlap between the first and the second person, and so on...
Aside from my film shooter, I really only have locals (farmers, policemen etc..) to work as PAs and lighting, in a rowdy crowd atmosphere..

-you want more resolution than what your P45 is capable of (39 mpx), to print 3 feet tall (0.9m).
For the final print to be 3" tall, you would need about 7200 pixels vertically to print at 200dpi. The IQ180 is 10328 x 7760, so that would work if you just pan horizontally and take individual pictures in the "landscape" orientation.

sounds good. As the above long pano was really my main test, with the P45, I had to shoot vertically only. I've since decided to be more sensible, and aim for shorter lengths. The long sample, for example, is now 4ft x 56ft...need to rethink all that.
I can always jam several panels together to create an impression of length. As well, I could probably stop aiming for seamless stitching,
like one would for pure landscape, and live with that.

I expect however, to be shooting large groups for a while - so I'd have to figure out how to shoot more manageable shorter spreads, while making sure that I could reasonably stitch several groupings together, and clone and heal the seams where they meet.
And I'm sure a proper pano head would help a lot.

right now, 80mp back seems the most efficient compromise - considering I'm shooting a lot more traditional formats than just the panorama. Thanks a lot, and if there are any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

 

[jsf]

This is my 3 cents worth. (inflation and all). How big are the final prints to be? It would seem to me that 45MP is more than enough to get the job done. I print 60" prints off of 12 MP. If it is sharp and you have a reasonable ISO so noise is not an issue, I just cannot imagine that you won't be able to make prints of any size that even at smelling distance won't be wonderful and thread count sharp. I now use a 36 MP Nikon and at base or near base ISO, locked down on a tripod, I cannot imagine what the upper limit might be in print size.

I know I will hear from people explaining pixel length etc, but in a real world situation once you get up into those 36-45-65 MP ranges, the print size is fairly unlimited. I have been studying with one of the guys that was in that core group of PhotoShop consultants and I asked him about this very problem concerning one of my images. This is what he told me. "Give me 12 MP of really sharp properly exposed digital capture at base ISO and just tell me how large you want it to be." The guy prints for museums and such so that is my 3.5 cents worth, I added a little extra value.

 

[ocarlo]

This is my 3 cents worth. (inflation and all). How big are the final prints to be? It would seem to me that 45MP is more than enough to get the job done. I print 60" prints off of 12 MP. If it is sharp and you have a reasonable ISO so noise is not an issue, I just cannot imagine that you won't be able to make prints of any size that even at smelling distance won't be wonderful and thread count sharp. I now use a 36 MP Nikon and at base or near base ISO, locked down on a tripod, I cannot imagine what the upper limit might be in print size.

Thanks for the real-world perspective. I've heard it said as well, or have inferred from my own reading.
A used 80mp back is still a lot of $$ for me, at least. I do have a grant, as major as they go, but I do have other major production issues like flights, local transport etc, a crew to house and feed over three months..though, one's main capture device is pretty major.

The main issue is, its almost all in my head - I've never had a print the size I imagine, I've never shot with anything MF digital other than my P45. I'm gonna take care of that soon as I get back stateside, for sure...Yet, I just know. Cropping in, flesh tones, major focus issues with my eyes, improved interface, better sensors, a little more headroom...I'm kinda all alone out there, big crowds, drunk soldiers - so anything that can help me speed it up, and have confidence in the shot I just took is golden...
I'm no techie by a long shot - its always been 5o asa, all manual everything, since back in the day. But a little future-proofing seems like not a bad thing.
I'll call that a bit of a vote of confidence in myself.
Thanks for the input - you definitely got my head buzzing tonight..

 

[jerome_m]

A few further comments:

1: you can stitch panoramas as wide as you like providing that the camera rotates around the entrance pupil or the lens. To determine the position of the entrance pupil, check these sites:
http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm
http://zooroomtechnologies.com/zr_Blog/_cameragear/_articles/_article012.html
https://www.nikonians.org/reviews/panoramas-finding-the-entrance-pupil-of-a-lens

2: the longer the lens, the less accurate the adjustment of the position of the entrance pupil should be. If you shoot outside and have plenty of space, use a long lens.

3: if you only do a single row, you don't really need a full pano head, just some kind of berth to attach your camera in position, preferably with an adjustable position. That can be an adjustable slide or a bar with a row of holes for your camera screw. As these are relatively simple mechanics, you could probably find a local machinist to build you the parts for relatively little money in Africa, although you may need to find someone versed in both photography and engineering to explain what you need. But maybe you have technical people in your party?

4: the resolution of your P45 will do the 3" tall print job if you can shoot the individual pictures in portrait position.

5: you are using an RZ 67 Pro IID. Panoramas will be easier with a lighter, smaller camera, either a Mamiya 645 or Hasselblad H1 for your back or even a Sony A7Rii.

 

[ocarlo]

A few further comments:

1: you can stitch panoramas as wide as you like providing that the camera rotates around the entrance pupil or the lens. To determine the position of the entrance pupil, check these sites:
http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm
http://zooroomtechnologies.com/zr_Blog/_cameragear/_articles/_article012.html
https://www.nikonians.org/reviews/panoramas-finding-the-entrance-pupil-of-a-lens

2: the longer the lens, the less accurate the adjustment of the position of the entrance pupil should be. If you shoot outside and have plenty of space, use a long lens.

3: if you only do a single row, you don't really need a full pano head, just some kind of berth to attach your camera in position, preferably with an adjustable position. That can be an adjustable slide or a bar with a row of holes for your camera screw. As these are relatively simple mechanics, you could probably find a local machinist to build you the parts for relatively little money in Africa, although you may need to find someone versed in both photography and engineering to explain what you need. But maybe you have technical people in your party?

4: the resolution of your P45 will do the 3" tall print job if you can shoot the individual pictures in portrait position.

5: you are using an RZ 67 Pro IID. Panoramas will be easier with a lighter, smaller camera, either a Mamiya 645 or Hasselblad H1 for your back or even a Sony A7Rii.

thanks for the links. I did try a simple nodal-finding thing, but yes, if I get that down, its one less thing to worry about.
Local technology can't help. But I'll be coming home for 6 months (NY) and plan to work all my issues out.
I do have a AFDIII - never used it, just a backup - but I'm kinda attached to my RZ.

I do have a brain teaser for myself... Right now, I'm working from a fixed tripod at the center of my imagined final frame.
Panning left to right.
If I already have the subjects' positions fixed and marked anyway, is there a difference to the final stitch - if I move my tripod to face each grouping or individual - Keep the same lens/same frame/same exposure but be able to light better than one guy with a strobe on a boom pole. Will shoot generous overlaps of course. Basically I'd "track" along a horizontal line, L to R, until I get to my last subject. As opposed to "panning" from a fixed position in the center. One might worry about getting a good stitch out of all that. But if I wasn't, and took care to overlap, and kept the tripod on this imaginary horizontal line...
Am I asking for too much trouble post-wise?

Reason: I want to prioritize shooting each grouping as its own final image - and still be able to assemble all of them into a stitched single pano image.
Which is another reason for more pixels - I have groups at different distances to camera, and must keep one consistent frame/exposure for all these groups. Re-framing for each group will likely mess up the final stitched pano. With more pixels I have the option, if I ditch the pano idea, of zooming into the subjects farther out.

Thanks, and sorry for the questions. I am simple-minded, in a way, and would rather ask now than be sorry out there.

 

[jerome_m]

If I already have the subjects' positions fixed and marked anyway, is there a difference to the final stitch - if I move my tripod to face each grouping or individual - Keep the same lens/same frame/same exposure but be able to light better than one guy with a strobe on a boom pole. Will shoot generous overlaps of course. Basically I'd "track" along a horizontal line, L to R, until I get to my last subject. As opposed to "panning" from a fixed position in the center. One might worry about getting a good stitch out of all that. But if I wasn't, and took care to overlap, and kept the tripod on this imaginary horizontal line...
Am I asking for too much trouble post-wise?

Yes, you are. If you move the tripod between shots, the individual pictures will not stitch (unless the subject is flat, this was done to photograph each houses individually in a long street).

From the geometry alone, the best way to do your project is to have the subjects in a circle around the camera. If you use stitching software, choose the "cylindrical" perspective.

 

[ocarlo]

You are most likely very correct there.
Hmm...more tweaks to the workflow then.
Nice thing now is I now have the time to shoot over two days
what I'd cram into 4 hours. Never thought of shooting in a circle.
Time to test out all this, including renting backs. yes. Thank you sir.

 

[CSP]

You are most likely very correct there.
Hmm...more tweaks to the workflow then.
Nice thing now is I now have the time to shoot over two days
what I'd cram into 4 hours. Never thought of shooting in a circle.
Time to test out all this, including renting backs. yes. Thank you sir.

you are really brave not only because of the location and circumstances of you project but also because of the equipment you are going to use, in my commercial world camera and data backup options would have a much higher priority than resolution. so not even remotely would i consider a rz with an old digital back. in my view the best option for this task would be to have 2 canon 5dsr with the l 24-70 2,8 zoom lens and some high quality primes. this setup has many advantages - immediate backup because you can use 2 cards in camera - the zoom allows you to better adjust the framing - you have some deep of filed advantage compared to mf which can make stitching and composition easier - you can shot jpg and raw and use the jpg´s to build panoramas on location for preview even on an ipad or phone - you save money....

 

[ocarlo]

you are really brave not only because of the location and circumstances of you project but also because of the equipment you are going to use, in my commercial world camera and data backup options would have a much higher priority than resolution. so not even remotely would i consider a rz with an old digital back. in my view the best option for this task would be to have 2 canon 5dsr with the l 24-70 2,8 zoom lens and some high quality primes. this setup has many advantages - immediate backup because you can use 2 cards in camera - the zoom allows you to better adjust the framing - you have some deep of filed advantage compared to mf which can make stitching and composition easier - you can shot jpg and raw and use the jpg´s to build panoramas on location for preview even on an ipad or phone - you save money....

Thanks for your thoughts. Every input or reaction is really helpful, and I'm not being just polite.
Especially because of my environment, I have to think things through.
Hard to explain, but my work as a UN video producer over 15 years means I know my terrain.
I know how to deal with armed men, with warlords, govt officials...thats a huge part of this workflow.

Being simple-minded really just means, for me, prioritizing the levels of choices, then disregarding most everything right from the start.
1 - camera - I get leaf-shutter action in the bright African sunlight, RZ glass is great, system is cheap, shutter makes that ka-chunk sound that startles everyone - great sound. And that it looks strange to most people is important to me. The same effect as using an 8x10 view camera. It stops time, slows things down, and takes the shooting experience to a strange place for the subject.
By the same logic, anything DSLR is out - simply because in a war zone, people are used to seeing Western journalists with dslrs and zooms.
Beyond that, I ignore every other consideration. glass quality / chromatic aberration stuff etc...

I'm also old enough to know the smell of Dektol, and Polaroids for testing. I love knowing just enough - got exposure, have bracketed enough, have backed up - OK, its in the can, and then move on. Whatever is the final result, I'll deal with all that much later. And hope to be surprised.
That way, I get more time on prepping the whole situation, lighting for effect - then have the time to step back and think.

In a way, (especially for the film I'm making) the real camera is the studio itself - this strange flashing strobing hi-tech disruptor machine with 3 white boxes, C-stands - that I then plant into unlikely places. Often, I have to spend time explaining that I'm not a journalist, and I'm not here to do interviews about the war. I always show respect, I pay every sitter a week's wage, and with a portable printer, always hand out 4x5 color prints - to people that have never known anything close to it. I put on a show, really, and it always translates well. While secretly channeling Avedon and Gregory Crewdson in my head.
The panorama thing is also something thing I had to do, only because I'd never done it. When I go back to do lots more, and stitching becomes a PITA, I'll find a way to incorporate the bad stitching later. Maybe use gaffer's tape to "stitch" the final prints...Mostly, everything else is standard beauty / portrait / staged crowd scenes...

 

[kdphotography]

I'd take a look at Eric's Credo 80 kit: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/gear-fs-or-wtb/59122-leaf-credo-80-df-80mm-ls.html

It would certainly be easier to use than on the RZ.

And Eric is a trusted GetDPI family member...

ken