Private sale etiquate?

[maxshafiq]

Not sure if this post belongs here but I'll ask.

When purchasing from a private party (non eBay etc), what From a buyers perspective what is the best way to transfer money? and from a sellers perspective send goods? By transfer money I mean the seller will obviously not release until he has received payment for his valuable commodity, and I as a buyer don't want to transfer money unless I have the goods.

Any suggestions as what might and might not work?

Thanks

 

[KeithL]

There has to be a certain amount of trust between buyer and seller. If buying via an ad on this or other forums then check out the seller's posting history and make sure you're comfortable to proceed.

As an independent seller - and I've sold a reasonable amount over the years through various forums - I've never dispatched the goods until payment is cleared, I've accepted payments by bank transfers and paypal without any problems and I've never had a complaint about the goods I've sold. Had I ever had a complaint I would have refunded the buyer in full without quibble: my reputation as a contributor to the forum and as a photographer could be called into question if I was not prepared to do so.

Basically it's all common sense.

 

[docmoore]

Any suggestions as what might and might not work?

Thanks

Keith is correct ... all about previous visibility and reputation of the seller. On GETDPI a fairly small community exists
that over time becomes well known.

If a new member ... one or two posts an item for sale he may have difficulty unless someone else in the forum has
had a great experience buying from him in the past. Most avoid sellers they do not know ... especially when it sounds
too good to be real.

I think it is contingent upon the buyer to release funds prior to the seller sending the item. Paypal is fairly good at
affording some protection to buyers as long as both parties have authenticated accounts and the item is sent to
their address on record.

While it may seem a bit of a gamble ... much less so if you have seen activity from a member for a long time
and their posts and responses seem genuine.

I cannot comment on other sites ... on Eb_y I usually only buy from commercial sellers ... stores with a good
record and those that have return policies that give me the option to return if there is a defect.

So long story short ... buy from a known entity ... and trust that little voice in your head that says ... too good
to be true.


Bob

 

[segedi]

I bought a PhaseOne kit with IQ140 back on here a few months back. The seller was new to this forum, but is a pro photographer with a website.
I called him. We made the deal and I paid him a deposit and then the full amount via PayPal. It was a painless process.

However, there is a service that you may use to facilitate selling and buying: https://www.escrow.com/
It works much like a traditional escrow service where the money is held by a 3rd party until the seller and buyer are both satisfied.

Other tips:

• Get full insurance for shipment
• Ship with a carrier such as FedEx or UPS within the US
• If using PayPal, don't use the gift option. If a seller insists on a 3% markup, I will gift them the 3% after paying the balance via Goods and Services
• Call a buyer or seller - if they aren't willing to give a phone number, run!
• Deal with established members that have great reputations - check their feedback on other forums and eBay

 

[algrove]

All good comments above. For me personally, when I see a Buy/Sell person has like 5-6 posts, I assume they just came on this site to sell their gear and have not contributed to the site in the past. Yes, we all have to start somewhere, but starting by selling an item does not elicit positive feelings from many.

 

[GrahamWelland]

+1 on low presence.

get to know the seller either through the forum or through personal contact. If I were buying a $30k back or outfit I'd want to do the trade in person. I'll happily fly to meet a seller for large ticket items and have done so in the past in my Leica gear days, even if it was the coffee shop at the airport.

overall, trust your gut feel. You're seldom wrong.

 

[shlomi]

There is only one way to sell: buyer pays and then seller ships.

On regulated platforms such as eBay and Amazon, the platform guarantees the seller will ship the promised product.
This platform here is not regulated, so no one guarantees anything.
Still you can buy here, and I did several times, and no problem yet.

There are scammers here from time to time, trying to take advatage of the locals.
You need to use some common sense: see if the seller is a recognized photographer with a web presence.
If there is no real web presence, then normally I will not send money in exchange for a kind word.

Then you need to engage the seller in some discussion - doesn't really matter about what.
You see their vocabulary, their education, their manner, this should tell you a lot about the person.
Nigerian princes are not that hard to spot.
Since I've done some time with the police, maybe I'm better trained to spot crooks.
But really, just listen to it - if anything sounds wonky, walk away and wait for the next one.

 

[Pradeep]

All very useful info here.

I will chip in with my comments pertaining to a website where I've been selling my gear for many years now.

For a buyer there is really no choice but to pay up and hope the seller comes through. So it is much easier to be a first time buyer than a seller. All you have to do is get your money to the seller.

For a seller it is much harder the first few times until you've established a good feedback.

To get money to the seller, the best way is by Paypal but you or the seller will have to pay the 3% transaction fee. Usually the seller will specify if the price is inclusive of Paypal and shipping or not. The shipping method is also usually clarified before the sale. Sometimes a seller will accept bank checks or postal orders, the buyer then has to have the patience to wait until all this clears and the seller has the money, he will not ship until this happens. This is one way to avoid Paypal fees but there is a delay involved and many buyers are simply too eager to wait.

Another way to transfer money is by direct wire transfer into a bank account but people may understandably be reluctant to give out such details.

The website where I've bought and sold gear worth several thousand in the past few years is Fred Miranda's site where the buy/sell forum is really good. Most sellers with a positive feedback of at least 25 are highly reliable.

 

[shlomi]

Right, I forgot to say - always pay with PayPal.
They do provide some level of protection even off eBay.
Just make sure to fill out as much as possible of the real transaction details, in the transfer. That way, you have a chance if something goes wrong.

Never send wire transfers. No one good asks for one.
Escrows are too complicated.
If someone refuses to accept PayPal, I will not deal with them.

 

[SahotaR]

There is only one way to sell: buyer pays and then seller ships.

On regulated platforms such as eBay and Amazon, the platform guarantees the seller will ship the promised product.
This platform here is not regulated, so no one guarantees anything.
Still you can buy here, and I did several times, and no problem yet.

There are scammers here from time to time, trying to take advatage of the locals.
You need to use some common sense: see if the seller is a recognized photographer with a web presence.
If there is no real web presence, then normally I will not send money in exchange for a kind word.

Then you need to engage the seller in some discussion - doesn't really matter about what.
You see their vocabulary, their education, their manner, this should tell you a lot about the person.
Nigerian princes are not that hard to spot.
Since I've done some time with the police, maybe I'm better trained to spot crooks.
But really, just listen to it - if anything sounds wonky, walk away and wait for the next one.

FWIW, I bought a DF body from this gentleman about 2 years ago, still use it and have no issues with it.
He was very helpful during the sell/buy process.


SahotaR

 

[Christopher]

Right, I forgot to say - always pay with PayPal.
They do provide some level of protection even off eBay.
Just make sure to fill out as much as possible of the real transaction details, in the transfer. That way, you have a chance if something goes wrong.

Never send wire transfers. No one good asks for one.
Escrows are too complicated.
If someone refuses to accept PayPal, I will not deal with them.

Funny, in some countries it's common to only use wire transfers as some of us don't like the high fees of PayPal.

If you don't record a video of everything PayPal protects nothing. If the reliever claims the stuff wasn't in the package your screwed whatever service you used.

I have sold and bought stuff here and never had a problem. Every time a pleasure.

Just inform yourself a little who you are dealing with.

 

[Forrest Black]

A good dealer is worth his commission or mark up, for sellers and buyers.

You may think that you are saving money buying directly from an owner or selling directly to a buyer but the heartache is often not worth it. There is too much fraud or are too many people with loosey-goosey ethics out there. One man's "mint condition" is another man's "well-used". I am not shilling for dealers (as there are rotten ones out there, too) but a good one is worth his commission in sales.

Paypal gets very expensive for international transactions as its forex rate is lousy. And it offers no protection; its verdict is based on the decision of some unknown Paypal schmoe who decides whose story is more believable, and you have no way of appealing. Paypal protection is a joke. Right now they seem to favour buyers but it may well swing the other way again. Paypal and ebay realised in 2008 that a market with no buyers was no market and so side with buyers much more today. Buyers were getting burnt by sellers on ebay and so stayed away. It is unethical buyers who have the upper hand today.

 

[Forrest Black]

...Just inform yourself a little who you are dealing with.

I agree with this absolutely. Nothing protects you as much as knowing whom you are dealing with.

If you are a seller, disclose everything and then some. Better to underpromise and overdeliver. You may lose a few hundreds but so what? A satisfied buyer means no headache of him accusing you of cheating him and agitating for a refund.

If you are a buyer, make your every quirk known to the seller. If even the slightest scratch on the body exasperates you make that known to the seller. It may mean that a seller does not wish to sell to you because he cannot meet your expectations. Lower your expectations or move on.

End of the day, a successful transaction comes from both parties being honest and reasonable with each other. Don't gloss over faults and don't fixate on non-issues either.

 

[Qamaro]

I have bought 90% of my gear through LL and here. I've always used wire-transfer (to avoid fees, quick verification, bank reviewed) and a contract if the seller is in the USA. If the seller is out of the country I tend to go through eBay.

I typically talk with the seller first (email, phone or txt), negotiate a price and a create a list / quality of all the gear. I then write up a "Bill of Sale / Sale Agreement" that has the list of equipment, both our names and addresses, along with how payment will be made. It will also include that details of how / when the shipment and tracking will be provided (typically on the same day of the wire).

I then coordinate when we would like to process the sale, we both sign the agreement, I make a PDF of the document and send us both copies. I then take the wire information and contract to the my bank, have them review it and we process the wire. I then call or text the seller with the wire confirmation, asking them to verify with their bank that they see it. They return call or text me the same day and provide me the tracking number for shipment (before COB my timezone).

As I said I've done this for lots of photography equipment as examples: my P45+ / AFDIII / Lenses, RX67 IID + lenses, Lens purchases and RM3Di body.

I have also gone the route that other have using paypal "gift" but, I've used that more for server, storage and networking gear as those individuals tend to be more of independent consultants or IT engineers who want to document the sale for tax purposes.

So, if you follow the advise that most people have stated about checking on the seller, seeing if they've sold other items (check here and LL - they sometimes post in both but, have more history in one vs. the other) you should be in good shape. Just do you due diligence and try to purchase in country as much as possible if you want to do a wire transfer.

Please note I've never had a seller ask for a wire transfer, I've always offered it so that they feel comfortable with a fast and reliable transaction, especially if paypal fees was going to be an issue or concern.

Just thought I'd share my experience... oh and where I come from in California "Bill of Sale Contracts" can be legally binding. So, you do have some legal recourse (in the USA).

 

[shlomi]

Funny, in some countries it's common to only use wire transfers as some of us don't like the high fees of PayPal.

If you don't record a video of everything PayPal protects nothing. If the reliever claims the stuff wasn't in the package your screwed whatever service you used.

I've had PayPal protect me many times - most of the times for eBay transactions.
Maybe this has changed and today they only accept video testimony - I don't know.
There is always the question about what happens when the receiver claims the box contains not what it is supposed to contain. I have no idea what happens. I've sold hundreds of items with eBay and PayPal and never faced that problem.

Wire transfers are a decided mark of fraudsters. Of course it doesn't mean anybody who asks for them is one (I was exaggerating). But if you're a fraudster, then your preferred means is wire transfer. They are non reversible and very hard to track. Paying 3% for some kind of protection, even if not 100%, is OK for me. If PayPal had ever screwed me as a seller, I would never use them again, but again they never did.

 

[shlomi]

A good dealer is worth his commission or mark up, for sellers and buyers.
Paypal gets very expensive for international transactions as its forex rate is lousy. And it offers no protection; its verdict is based on the decision of some unknown Paypal schmoe who decides whose story is more believable, and you have no way of appealing. Paypal protection is a joke. Right now they seem to favour buyers but it may well swing the other way again. Paypal and ebay realised in 2008 that a market with no buyers was no market and so side with buyers much more today. Buyers were getting burnt by sellers on ebay and so stayed away. It is unethical buyers who have the upper hand today.

I have well over 1000 transactions on eBay. All with PayPal.
I've had dozens of disputes, almost all of them for defective products I've received.
All were decided for me, except two:
In the beginning I shipped with no tracking, so one case the seller took advantage of that and pretended not to receive the returned goods with no tracking. My bad, and I never did that again.
Another case was decided against me on eBay, then I filed it again on PayPal and I got the correct result.
At the end in every case I got a correct verdict except when I didn't properly document the shipping.
So in my own experience PayPal resolution was pretty much perfect.

How much protection you will get for an off eBay transaction - I'm not sure, but it's more protection than wire transfer.