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Thread: Tilt question?

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    Tilt question?

    Given only 2 lenses on Cambo WRS:
    Rodenstock 70 HR-W
    Rodenstock 40 HR-W
    Using IQ-260

    And my favorite genre being landscape / city architecture.

    Which lens of the above two is your favorite in each situation and how often do you use tilt?

    I am asking the question because I am needing to understand more the real-world application (of tilt) and just know that this is the place to ask all you experts...
    Before I go spend a whole pile of more money....

    Regards
    Frank
    Cambo WRS, IQ260, Rodie 70 HR-W, 40 HR-W, 135 APO-Sironar Leaf Credo 40

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    Re: Tilt question?

    When using a tech camera (I use Arca), tilt is always in play for me. I prefer very deep DOF, thus I want my foreground as sharp as possible, and with MF tilt helps a lot here. Even the 28HR benefited from tilt when I used it.

    With the 32 and 40mm, I pretty much always have tilt added. Most times the top of the image is sky, thus loss of sharpness not an issue.

    On the Arca, the difference in just 1/2 a degree of tilt can be impressive.

    Paul C

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    Senior Member stngoldberg's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Hi Paul,
    I find on my Arca the weight of the 32mm Rodie makes it difficult to keep the tilt at a 1 degree setting. The sheer force of gravity forces the lens down; for some reason on my Arca the resistance to tilt is only sufficient on the 0 setting.
    I sent the camera to precision for an adjustment, but they could not get Arca to respond to a fix.
    Do you have the same problem?
    Stanley

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    Re: Tilt question?

    Hello Stanley,

    If I add the CF and a Lee wide angle ring then yes the Arca will have trouble holding at 1/2, but I can get it to stay at 1. I have also used gaffers tape to keep the dial from moving in the field. (fixes anything from Arca to Phase One XF issues)


    I did send camera back to Rod K, who did tighten the tilt swing ring. But if there is any weak link to the design on the rm3di, it would be this issue.

    Disappointing to hear that Precision could not fix this issue and that Arca seemingly made no response.

    Paul C

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    Senior Member stngoldberg's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Paul,
    You are so helpful...gaffers tape is a great solution....I had been holding the dail at 1 degree with my left hand while using the cable with my right hand...problem was when adjusting the shutter setting for proper exposure, I would need a third hand
    Thank you again
    Stanley
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Frank,

    I have both the HR40 and HR70 both with t/s panels on Cambo WRS. Tilt is used frequently, often just 1 degree. The HR40 is on my Cambo the most. Given a choice that is my favorite lens. The HR70 behaves very similarly to the HR40, making it also extremely easy to use.

    Worried about spending a whole lot of money? Too late.... Have you tried the HR32 Paul and Stan are talking about, or how about the new 90?

    ken

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    Senior Member stngoldberg's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Hi Frank,
    I use tilt on 99% of my images. If you are most interested in landscape and architecture, tilt improves most images.
    Focus stacking fails on many landscape images because of wind movement.
    Tilt is helpful on architecture because you can see when tethered, how tilt altered the images
    Stanley
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    Senior Member stngoldberg's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Frank,
    Attached you will notice the amazing DOF as a result of one degree of tilt on a 32mm Rodenstork at f8
    Stanley
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    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Both of those lenses were my main goto's when I shot tech -- in fact, the main 3 I used were those plus the SK 120. I used tilts with all of them all the time for landscape. Used swing and rise mostly with the 40 for architecture. If you can only get one, I'd go for the 40 first, but you will own the 70 before long anyway
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    I find on my Arca the weight of the 32mm Rodie makes it difficult to keep the tilt at a 1 degree setting. The sheer force of gravity forces the lens down; for some reason on my Arca the resistance to tilt is only sufficient on the 0 setting.
    I sent the camera to precision for an adjustment, but they could not get Arca to respond to a fix.

    Stanley
    This was one of my biggest complaints regarding both Alpa's and Acra's. The lens has to be mounted forward causing unequal weight distribution. The Alpa tilt mechanism is more robust than the Arca's but no matter what the lens is just too far in front. This was another reason for my switching to the Actus as all lenses are weight centered on the copal 0 mounting plate and they are somewhat yaw free.

    Victor

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    Re: Tilt question?

    what are you guys using for tilt angles? Am shooting w 55 and 90 mostly.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    what are you guys using for tilt angles? Am shooting w 55 and 90 mostly.
    As a very general starting point, assuming that you are shooting at a typical tripod height of say 5ft and the plane of focus extends along a flat ground plane, I'd use about focal length/30 as my starting tilt at F/8 or f/11 and somewhere between infinity or closer focus to move the wedge of focus down (infinity) or upwards (focus closer).

    So for 55 & 90, you might start at 1.5 - 2 degrees for 55 or up to 3 for the 90. After that I would eyeball it in using live view or shoot/review at 100%.

    Like Victor, I prefer the tilt function of my Actus DB+ to the Alpa due to the way that tilt worked. I use 32 & 70HR plus a 135 Rodie and have no issues with tilt slip even with the huge 32HR. I use tilt & rise/fall practically on every image with the 32 & 70HR.

    Btw, I also use an excellent iPhone app - Snapi TiltCalculator - for when I need to dial in a different starting point such as when the camera is low to the ground or I'm shooting from a high vantage point. Again, I just use the calc as a sanity check but ultimately dial it in using live view for the critical fore/aft focus points and the plane of focus. Torger here also has an EXCELLENT app btw, Lumariver DOF which I like also but aren't quite as used to using yet as TiltCalculator.

    (the app helps with calculating starting tilt angle for situations where you want to emulate rear tilt by tilting the entire camera/sensor such as for accentuating foreground objects, i.e. Looming)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    Frank,
    Attached you will notice the amazing DOF as a result of one degree of tilt on a 32mm Rodenstork at f8
    Stanley
    A most impressive result - Thank you for sharing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thank you everyone for your responses. Pretty much what I thought would be the case though nice to get your valued opinions.

    Cheers and thanks
    Frank
    Cambo WRS, IQ260, Rodie 70 HR-W, 40 HR-W, 135 APO-Sironar Leaf Credo 40

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    Re: Tilt question?

    How often you use tilt will depend on what subjects you shoot, and a bit on your shooting style too.

    Open scenery is generally suitable for tilt, especially if you use lens fall/back rise or a low tripod (so you see ground really close to the camera).

    In tight scenery say inside a forest you're less likely to use tilt as you can't really solve anything with it as you then often have close objects stretching from the bottom to the top in the frame.

    I do much of the later and therefore don't use tilt that much. However I have a view camera and thus tilt/swing on all my lenses and I like to have that when I need it, because sometimes I do. I've used tilt with my 35mm, then always with either a low tripod or back rise (so close ground is visibile, otherwise I don't need it), and all the way up to 180mm. The focal length I use tilt for most often is the 47mm, I have a 49x37mm sensor so with the IQ260 that would be closest to 50mm, around a 35mm 135 equivalent field of view.

    Concerning setting the tilt amount I use tables or nowadays a depth of field calculator app, Lumariver Depth of Field (as I made that myself ). Due to the short focal length the tilt amounts are often small, you can get values like 1.4 degrees, so it's nice to have a camera that have degree markings on the tilt.
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    How often you use tilt will depend on what subjects you shoot, and a bit on your shooting style too.

    Open scenery is generally suitable for tilt, especially if you use lens fall/back rise or a low tripod (so you see ground really close to the camera).

    In tight scenery say inside a forest you're less likely to use tilt as you can't really solve anything with it as you then often have close objects stretching from the bottom to the top in the frame.

    I do much of the later and therefore don't use tilt that much. However I have a view camera and thus tilt/swing on all my lenses and I like to have that when I need it, because sometimes I do. I've used tilt with my 35mm, then always with either a low tripod or back rise (so close ground is visibile, otherwise I don't need it), and all the way up to 180mm. The focal length I use tilt for most often is the 47mm, I have a 49x37mm sensor so with the IQ260 that would be closest to 50mm, around a 35mm 135 equivalent field of view.

    Concerning setting the tilt amount I use tables or nowadays a depth of field calculator app, Lumariver Depth of Field (as I made that myself ). Due to the short focal length the tilt amounts are often small, you can get values like 1.4 degrees, so it's nice to have a camera that have degree markings on the tilt.
    Thanks for that Torger. I have purchased your app and are getting my way around it. Thus far I can say it looks pretty darned excellent... From what I can understand and from responses here on this forum I believe I would be using tilt more often than not which probably confirms my reason to go for the 70 and 40 HR-W with T/S mounts. Also as Jack suggests possibly a 135 or thereabouts for longer lengths.
    I thank you all for your valued contributions.

    Cheers
    Frank
    Cambo WRS, IQ260, Rodie 70 HR-W, 40 HR-W, 135 APO-Sironar Leaf Credo 40

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Replying to the thread...

    Hi,

    I don't use tilts on MFD but I have a thread at the Sony subforum with quite a few examples of using tilts and shifts, with the focus on tilts. It may be useful. I mostly use peaking to find the right amount of tilt.

    Some examples of Tilt (or shift) with Sony A7rII and the HCam Master TSII

    Best regards
    Erik

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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Both of those lenses were my main goto's when I shot tech -- in fact, the main 3 I used were those plus the SK 120. I used tilts with all of them all the time for landscape. Used swing and rise mostly with the 40 for architecture. If you can only get one, I'd go for the 40 first, but you will own the 70 before long anyway
    Oh, the 70 is on its way.... Thanks Jack - I'm having to dig a little deeper into the money pit every day!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    I don't use tilts on MFD but I have a thread at the Sony subforum with quite a few examples of using tilts and shifts, with the focus on tilts. It may be useful. I mostly use peaking to find the right amount of tilt.

    Some examples of Tilt (or shift) with Sony A7rII and the HCam Master TSII

    Best regards
    Erik
    Hey, thanks Erik,
    I will check it all out..
    Cheers
    Frank
    Cambo WRS, IQ260, Rodie 70 HR-W, 40 HR-W, 135 APO-Sironar Leaf Credo 40

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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Frank,

    I have both the HR40 and HR70 both with t/s panels on Cambo WRS. Tilt is used frequently, often just 1 degree. The HR40 is on my Cambo the most. Given a choice that is my favorite lens. The HR70 behaves very similarly to the HR40, making it also extremely easy to use.

    Worried about spending a whole lot of money? Too late.... Have you tried the HR32 Paul and Stan are talking about, or how about the new 90?

    ken
    Ken,
    There is a limit (wife imposed) on what one can do here... The 90 would be a wonderful thing but unless I could pull a rabbit out of the hat somewhere I doubt I can go that far...
    Will have to settle for the 40 and 70 at this point.. but then again.... you know where I want to go!

    Cheers
    Frank
    Cambo WRS, IQ260, Rodie 70 HR-W, 40 HR-W, 135 APO-Sironar Leaf Credo 40

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Don't worry, if you let Ken influence you to go Rodie 32/90, you'll still want something in between like the SK60 if you can still get one. Dante is alive and well here ...

    (Btw I still cast a pox on the scumbags who stole my Alpa 32/90 combo!)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Frank,

    I have both the HR40 and HR70 both with t/s panels on Cambo WRS. Tilt is used frequently, often just 1 degree. The HR40 is on my Cambo the most. Given a choice that is my favorite lens. The HR70 behaves very similarly to the HR40, making it also extremely easy to use.


    ken
    pretty much my feelings with the same lenses on a rm3di.

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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Don't worry, if you let Ken influence you to go Rodie 32/90, you'll still want something in between like the SK60 if you can still get one. Dante is alive and well here ...

    (Btw I still cast a pox on the scumbags who stole my Alpa 32/90 combo!)
    Yeh, thanks Graham... Really sad about the theft btw.
    Cambo WRS, IQ260, Rodie 70 HR-W, 40 HR-W, 135 APO-Sironar Leaf Credo 40

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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Don't worry, if you let Ken influence you to go Rodie 32/90, you'll still want something in between like the SK60 if you can still get one. Dante is alive and well here ...

    (Btw I still cast a pox on the scumbags who stole my Alpa 32/90 combo!)
    and at that point, you really just need to add the Rodie 23mm to complete the set and have the widest of wides at hand just in case
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    Cool Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    and at that point, you really just need to add the Rodie 23mm to complete the set and have the widest of wides at hand just in case
    Well its probably fortunate that I will be building a new house before too long. Would be an absolute shame if it went over budget...
    Cambo WRS, IQ260, Rodie 70 HR-W, 40 HR-W, 135 APO-Sironar Leaf Credo 40

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    I had the 23mm Rodie for a few years but traded it when I went to the Alpa FPS and Canon 17TSE & 24TSE combo. As great as the 23mm was, before the new coatings at least, it had flare issues and basically no movements. For not much more really than my Alpagon 23HR I transitioned to a true super wide outfit with movements.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I had the 23mm Rodie for a few years but traded it when I went to the Alpa FPS and Canon 17TSE & 24TSE combo. As great as the 23mm was, before the new coatings at least, it had flare issues and basically no movements. For not much more really than my Alpagon 23HR I transitioned to a true super wide outfit with movements.
    Agreed, the 23 is a princess most of the time. What did you end up going with?

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    Senior Member aztwang's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    OK so my disclaimer: I'm a dumb &ss when it comes to this tech cam business but am trying to learn.

    As for tilt would it be feasible to tilt a digital back (IQ series)on a body ( XF/DF+) by means of say an adjustable adapter or even a fixed 1 degree adapter being that 1 degree is a very common adjustment?

    Don

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by aztwang View Post
    As for tilt would it be feasible to tilt a digital back (IQ series)on a body ( XF/DF+) by means of say an adjustable adapter or even a fixed 1 degree adapter being that 1 degree is a very common adjustment?

    Don
    Not practical with xf/df due to the mount clips and electrical connecting pins plus lack of access I would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Agreed, the 23 is a princess most of the time. What did you end up going with?
    Canon 17TSE & 24TSE on Alpa FPS. Unfortunately it means that I use two tech systems with the Actus DB+ & Alpa FPS for superwide with movements.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Like Graham said the connections would be difficult. But also as soon as you add an adapter in there you are no longer able to focus at infinity. you would have to make an adapter that had zero depth.

    Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by aztwang View Post
    OK so my disclaimer: I'm a dumb &ss when it comes to this tech cam business but am trying to learn.

    As for tilt would it be feasible to tilt a digital back (IQ series)on a body ( XF/DF+) by means of say an adjustable adapter or even a fixed 1 degree adapter being that 1 degree is a very common adjustment?

    Don

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    Re: Tilt question?

    It's probably not possible but something that combines the tilt/shift functions of a technical camera and the tools and viewfinders of the XF would really be something for the Inferno....

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by MILESF View Post
    It's probably not possible but something that combines the tilt/shift functions of a technical camera and the tools and viewfinders of the XF would really be something for the Inferno....
    A Schneider / Phase One 35 or 40mm with tilt/shift would cause a disruption of the force in my wallet ... Even a 50mm actually.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!
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    Re: Tilt question?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    A Schneider / Phase One 35 or 40mm with tilt/shift would cause a disruption of the force in my wallet ... Even a 50mm actually.
    Perhaps one of those thoughts I should have kept to myself or at least to my dreams.
    Miles Flint
    http://www.milesflint.com
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