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Thread: GuoZh /Mini-TC

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Is that a Canon 17mm TSE rehoused in a Copal/helicoid? Are the floating elements used?


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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Any idea of the cost for the "Mini TC"? The only link I found has it for 8800 Yuan, which is a bit above $1300 US dollars.

    Would be curious about the Canon lenses as well... How does one change the aperture on such lenses?

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    My bad, have just had a better look at the image of the Canon lens and have seen it has been placed together with a Copal shutter...

    Pricing for the Canon 24mm TS-E seems to be about 11,000 yuan which works out to be about $1650 US Dollars and 15,000 Yuan for the 17mm TS-E which is about $2250 US.

    Not sure if that is right though

    Any downsides to incorporating a shutter into a lens like this?

    Obviously the downside to this design is that it can only be used on this camera, unlike the Cambo which leaves the original Canon lens intact...

    Still, potentially a lot cheaper..

    I would have liked to see either Contax 645 or Hasselblad H lenses with this technique, that would offer something that is not currently available..

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Deng---you're a tease. Tell us more! Do you have this camera? Quality? Tolerances? Digital back compatibility? Details etc...

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Is that a Canon 17mm TSE rehoused in a Copal/helicoid? Are the floating elements used?

    YES!
    Is that a Canon 17mm TSE rehoused in a Copal/helicoid. Are the floating elements used.
    used for GuoZh or alpa system.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by mandonbossi View Post
    Any idea of the cost for the "Mini TC"? The only link I found has it for 8800 Yuan, which is a bit above $1300 US dollars.

    Would be curious about the Canon lenses as well... How does one change the aperture on such lenses?
    Through the modification, adding focusing components, Large format lens shutter, the flange sleeve, realize the shooting.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by mandonbossi View Post
    My bad, have just had a better look at the image of the Canon lens and have seen it has been placed together with a Copal shutter...

    Pricing for the Canon 24mm TS-E seems to be about 11,000 yuan which works out to be about $1650 US Dollars and 15,000 Yuan for the 17mm TS-E which is about $2250 US.

    Not sure if that is right though

    Any downsides to incorporating a shutter into a lens like this?

    Obviously the downside to this design is that it can only be used on this camera, unlike the Cambo which leaves the original Canon lens intact...

    Still, potentially a lot cheaper..

    I would have liked to see either Contax 645 or Hasselblad H lenses with this technique, that would offer something that is not currently available..
    Hi
    The modified cost includes:focusing components, Large format lens shutter, Tilt & Swing flange sleeve.
    After the modification of traditional large format camera lens similar.
    If you need more information, please Email:[email protected]
    thx

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    Deng---you're a tease. Tell us more! Do you have this camera? Quality? Tolerances? Digital back compatibility? Details etc...
    Hi
    I am the user and the maker of the camera.

    Product specifications:
    Size (L x W x H): 176x160x213mm (including the Bellows).
    Weight (including the Bellows): 1155g
    Front group the Tilt & swing: ±10 °
    Front group fine-tuning stroke: 25mm.
    After group of longitudinal Rear shift axis: up/ 12mm down/15mm.
    After the group lateral shift axis: 20mm.
    Front panel: compatible with GuoZh and ALPA interface.
    Large format No. 0 lens Board.
    Large format No. 1 lens Board.
    M39 lens Board.
    Canon EF lens board (concave) for Mnin-TC.
    Nikon F/D/G lens board (concave) for Mnin-TC.
    Leica R lens board (concave) for Mnin-TC.
    Hasselblad V mouth lens board (for Mnin-TC).
    The Pentax P645 lens board.
    The Mamiya M645 lens board.
    Mamia RZ/RB lens board.
    After the group camera mount: digital back interface compatible with GuoZh and ALPA interface (including the H/V/M/C interface).
    SONY E system.
    Canon EOS system (except 1D/1DS Series).
    Nikon F system (except D3/D4 Series).
    M3/4 system.
    Fuji X system.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    @OP - are you aware that Alpa has ripped off your design for the GuoZh? And, if that wasn't bad enough, it looks like Cambo has flagrantly violated all your patents on the Mini-TC.

    If I were you, I'd find a lawyer and sue the living daylights out of them.

    Or, maybe not.
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    @OP - are you aware that Alpa has ripped off your design for the GuoZh? And, if that wasn't bad enough, it looks like Cambo has flagrantly violated all your patents on the Mini-TC.

    If I were you, I'd find a lawyer and sue the living daylights out of them.

    Or, maybe not.
    Copyright/patent infringement could be an issue, but this 17TSE modification is surely interesting - it is certainly a better solution than the Alpa 12 FPS. I never liked the idea of Alpa 12 FPS because it's heavy, bulky and its shifting capability is too limited (either no shift for Rodenstock wide angles or no back shift with the TSE lenses).
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    what patent has been infringed?
    making a view camera with geared movements is not an exclusive right belonging to any one manufacturer?
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    what patent has been infringed?
    making a view camera with geared movements is not an exclusive right belonging to any one manufacturer?
    I am no expert in this area. I believe Nikon used to sue Sigma for some kind of patent infringement. Maybe at some point they can make gear like Tamron/Sigma without any patent infringement but as this area is too specialized for the minority no one really bothers with the grey areas.

    I have contacted the OP and their modification service charge is:

    Canon 17mm TSE to Alpa LB mount with built in tilt function: $2250

    Canon 24mm TSE to Alpa LB mount with built in tilt function: $1650

    A discount of $300 is available if no tilt function is required and they will convert the lens into SB34 mount.

    They currently have a long queue of lenses waiting for their modification services. I will probably send one to them as well.

    Compared against the ALPA 12 FPS solution:

    a) You don't have to carry another heavy and bulky camera system (along with the Canon lens adapters and dedicated batteries);

    b) You no longer need to worry that you cannot shift wide angle Rodenstocks with the ALPA 12 FPS. Simply carry your favorite STC or MAX!

    c) You gain the ability to shift the digital back instead of the front element group.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    what patent has been infringed?
    making a view camera with geared movements is not an exclusive right belonging to any one manufacturer?
    I agree; but just what form that 'solution' takes can be protected by a patent.

    Of course, a patent is only meaningful if you have the means ($$) to protect it. This is why we get stuff like this:



    While here's the real deal:

    Last edited by f8orbust; 5th September 2016 at 06:02.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    BTW, are the OP's (or those who he employs') mechanical engineering skills impressive ? I'd have to say yes. But at the same time I'm dismayed that he put them to use shamelessly c̶o̶p̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ stealing ideas for products that other people have spent lots of time, money and effort on producing.
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    China looks on copyright/patent/intellectual property much differently. Tons of copycats in every industry

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    In which case they should withdraw from the Patent Cooperation Treaty they signed up to in 1994.
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    I find it interesting that people who create photographs think it's okay to copy others' work.

    If it's okay to duplicate the ALPA TC or the Arca Cube, I guess it's okay to rip off photographers' work as well?

    I may be wrong, but I assume China would be okay with that too.
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    We simply call that product piracy and that's what I deeply despise .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    what patent has been infringed?
    making a view camera with geared movements is not an exclusive right belonging to any one manufacturer?
    Registered US Patent Agent here. FYI, making a view camera absolutely can be an exclusive right (ie can be patented). A view camera with geared movements by itself is an abstract idea that cannot be patented, however one could patent:

    a) method[s] of making (ie constructing) a view camera with geared movements
    b) one or more physical structures that provide the function of a view camera with geared movements (physical forms of view cameras with geared movements)
    c) an aesthetic design of a view camera with geared movements

    A patent on any one of a-c would provide an exclusive right for a period of time for a view camera with geared movements for the subject matter in the patent[s] that gets allowed.
    Last edited by tcdeveau; 6th September 2016 at 09:36.

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Hi,

    What about prior art?

    A parallell question, what about things like say Hejnar Photo, that is a knock off from RRS, that is a knock of Kirk, that is a knock of from Arca Swiss?

    That said, some knock offs are very similar to the original. I have a Novoflex adapter for my Hasselblad lenses so I can mount on the FE mount. That is a two part adapter.

    I have a similar adapter from Kipon for my Pentax lenses. I can actually use the Kipon front on the Novoflex rear and the other way around. Matting on the Novoflex is better, so I prefer to use the rear part of the Novoflex with my Pentax lenses.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by tcdeveau View Post
    Registered US Patent Agent here. FYI, making a view camera absolutely can be an exclusive right (ie can be patented). A view camera with geared movements by itself is an abstract idea that cannot be patented, however one could patent:

    a) method[s] of making (ie constructing) a view camera with geared movements
    b) one or more physical structures that provide the function of a view camera with geared movements (physical forms of view cameras with geared movements)
    c) a design of a view camera with geared movements

    A patent on any one of a-c would provide an exclusive right for a period of time for a view camera with geared movements for the subject matter in the patent[s] that gets allowed.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    What about prior art?

    A parallell question, what about things like say Hejnar Photo, that is a knock off from RRS, that is a knock of Kirk, that is a knock of from Arca Swiss?

    That said, some knock offs are very similar to the original. I have a Novoflex adapter for my Hasselblad lenses so I can mount on the FE mount. That is a two part adapter.

    I have a similar adapter from Kipon for my Pentax lenses. I can actually use the Kipon front on the Novoflex rear and the other way around. Matting on the Novoflex is better, so I prefer to use the rear part of the Novoflex with my Pentax lenses.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Hi Erik,
    Could you be more specific with your question? I'm not sure I understand but maybe the following answers your question:

    Broadly, if one submits a patent application, prior art can prevent one from obtaining a patent if the prior art shows that the claims (the claims of a patent are what defines "the invention") of the patent one is trying to obtain isn't new or is obvious to one skilled in the art at the time of filing [the application]. Obviousness here means that it would be obvious "for one skilled in the art" to take the teachings of the prior art and come up with the claimed invention[s] of the application that is filed at the time of filing. During the patent application process, the burden is on the applicant to demonstrate that the prior art found by the patent examiner or patent examination office either is not applicable to the pending application for one reason or another, or the claims of the pending patent application have to be narrowed to exclude the prior art if it is applicable in a manner supported by the application as filed. Again, broadly, for something to be patented it has to be a new or non-obvious improvement over the prior art as most inventions these days are improvements over past technology. As far as knock-offs and infringement goes, I am not qualified to make commentary on infringement as I do not have a law degree (note that patent agents in the US are not required to have one).

    -Todd

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    In my view the question is not a legal one. Who cares whether China honors patents, or allows people to patent copies of other people's work?

    The issue to me is the theft of a design or idea. In my work, when you quote something, you cite it. You don't appropriate others' work as your own.
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by deng1130 View Post
    ALPA no patent,
    GuoZh Have patent in China.



    Are those fake as well ?

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by deng1130 View Post
    ALPA no patent,
    GuoZh Have patent in China.
    Just because something isn't patented or copyrighted is totally irrelevant.

    If someone leaves their front door unlocked, that doesn't mean you can go into their house and steal their belongings, does it ?

    The weirdest thing is that you really seem to think that these are your own, original, designs.

    They are not.

    You saw what someone else did, copied it, and are now passing it off as your own work.

    The only thing you didn't steal was the name, but that doesn't change a thing.
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    Just because something isn't patented or copyrighted is totally irrelevant.

    If someone leaves their front door unlocked, that doesn't mean you can go into their house and steal their belongings, does it ?

    The weirdest thing is that you really seem to think that these are your own, original, designs.

    They are not.

    You saw what someone else did, copied it, and are now passing it off as your own work.

    The only thing you didn't steal was the name, but that doesn't change a thing.
    17 years ago a Chinese company called Tencent copied ICQ's idea and design, and by copying and stealing, today Tencent has become the number one giant of IT in China.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Hi,

    It is not that easy… Who has invented the optical bench camera? You can take a patent on technical details, but there is probably 'prior art' where somebody used a similar solution.

    Yes, some of these cameras remind a lot of Alpa designs, but I am very far from sure that Alpa was not leaning on inventions of others.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    In my view the question is not a legal one. Who cares whether China honors patents, or allows people to patent copies of other people's work?

    The issue to me is the theft of a design or idea. In my work, when you quote something, you cite it. You don't appropriate others' work as your own.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    It's been going on for years, look at all the Leica copies over the years and cameras like Horseman which were very similar to linhof and sinar.
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,
    Yes, some of these cameras remind a lot of Alpa designs ...
    They remind you of Alpa designs ?!@?!

    Wow.

    With all due respect, either you've got a terrible memory, or the last time you looked at the Alpa website must be like 10 years ago.

    The cameras are not reminiscent of Alpa's designs. They are Alpa's designs (albeit obtained via reverse engineering).

    Jim
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Well, I do notice on the Alpa TC images above that Alpa has the trademark symbol on their name---so GuoZh they didn't steal the name from Alpa. Eh, so they got that going for them.

    No lead paint either, right?

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Hi-

    These are generic designs that have been around for decades in many variants. Generally I prefer brand names to generics but there is no guarantee that one will be better than another. I own Alpa gear betting that the engineering and fabrication is more precise, but I've been known to be wrong from time to time....

    jim

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by jimban View Post
    Hi-
    These are generic designs that have been around for decades in many variants...
    You mean generic in the sense that a lens attaches to a body which attaches to a film back / digital sensor ? Otherwise known as ... what is it ... it'll come to me any second ... oh yes, I know: 'a camera'.

    This isn't like some prescription med with an expired patent that can be knocked out in a generic version in order to make it more affordable / widely available. This guy isn't some good Samaritan performing a public service. He's flagrantly ripping off companies (in this case Alpa and Cambo), where people have dedicated their working lives, along with significant sums of money, into the R&D necessary to produce these superb cameras and the support network (dealerships, trade show appearances etc.) that goes along with them.

    And then along comes a kid with a set of calipers (or these days a cheap laser scanner) and a copy of SolidWorks (probably pirated) and they turn out this junk in, what, a week ?

    And that's acceptable ?

    Jim
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    I agree; but just what form that 'solution' takes can be protected by a patent.

    Of course, a patent is only meaningful if you have the means ($$) to protect it. This is why we get stuff like this:



    While here's the real deal:

    Surely you have noticed the use of black Allen screws instead of SS Torx ones...and the different type of wood for the handle...oh and the logo as well!!!
    What annoys me with this kind of threads is that you see folks actually showing interest in a knock-off and by doing that encourage more of this "phenomenon"...

    If I was the moderators, I'd seriously consider removing this thread and issuing a ban warning to the OP...

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    What annoys me with this kind of threads is that you see folks actually showing interest in a knock-off
    I have no interest in the knock-off Alpa camera bodies and I do not support that kind of plagiarism.

    However their Canon TS-E lens conversion into Alpa mount is still one of a kind innovation and the best solution I've seen so far (apart from the quality control which is still to be validated).

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Customer order: Carl Zeiss Biogon 38mm/f4.5 LENS 6° pitch function

    Transformation of the Carl Zeiss Biogon 38mm/f4.5 lens,Contrast the performance of SWC in digital back: Edge quality is improved lot, red shift is very slight.






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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC


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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    D'oh is right.

    Just an F U to those who worry about ethics.

    I checked the ALPA list of stolen gear. At least the lenses weren't stolen from ALPA. Just the designs.

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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    I'm locking this up. Sorry I'm not into this kind of plagiarism and worse using GetDPI as your revenue stream. Members use your best judgement but as a photographer of many years to me it's like stealing my copyright. To the OP take it somewhere else.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: GuoZh /Mini-TC

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm locking this up. Sorry I'm not into this kind of plagiarism and worse using GetDPI as your revenue stream. Members use your best judgement but as a photographer of many years to me it's like stealing my copyright. To the OP take it somewhere else.
    You beat me to it.
    I have wifi for the first time in three weeks. Trying to catch up...
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