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S2 and my impressions.
- Thread starter Guy Mancuso
- Start date
yaya
Active member
Just a small remark regarding offset microlenses:
The (discontinued) Kodak KAF-18000 sensor (used in the P21 and P21+ backs) had offset microlenses and this was back in 2006...
Thanks for clarifying the lenses for Mamiya issue this is what I've been telling people since the rumours started last September.
Yair
The (discontinued) Kodak KAF-18000 sensor (used in the P21 and P21+ backs) had offset microlenses and this was back in 2006...
Thanks for clarifying the lenses for Mamiya issue this is what I've been telling people since the rumours started last September.
Yair
Guy, I think you have cut to the chase here. A good reminder that this is THE issue, and still a complete unknown. Given the circumstances and continuing search for the bottom of this economic chasm the world has fallen into, it's a serious issue more than at any time in my career.
I still contend that in general this will be seen as a supplemental system by most professional photographers I know ... at least the ones that are still in business.
So all the pixel peeping and hashing out of minutia seems trivial by comparison.
The S2 may well "outperform" some current 31 and 39 meg "systems" ... but to what degree? To the degree of risking ones very livelyhood? 31 and 39 meg kits are now quite affordable ... relatively speaking ... but more importantly they do the job at the level of excellence that my clients demand.
A Hasselblad H3D-II/50 kit (back, camera, prism and 80 lens) is 28K ... and I already have all the lenses, and a gaggle of Zeiss CFE optics. My overall investment to get this 50 meg solution would run me about 15 or 16K difference. Right now, I won't even do that, let alone swap MFD systems.
IMO, THAT is the same issue that many photographers will be facing. Do you start over for a lot of $$$$$$, or do I upgrade what I have to 50 (Hassey), 54 (Leaf), or 60 meg (Phase & Hassey) all of which feature the latest technological advances. In the Pro MFD Market, THAT is the competition IMHO.
Unless Leica can source customers from other sectors, it seems a difficult task. One I'm sure they are struggling with as we speak. I do hope they succeed, because I'd like them around when my business recovers to the degree that I can re-instate questionable decisions based on the heart rather than survival.
"Ah right, forgot that one. I wonder why Hasselblad went from 110/2 to 100/2.2? Does anyone have any insight? Was Fuji unable to do a good f2 lens?"
Most likely the central shutter diameter is the limiting factor!? But I won't talk about the MTF at f2.2, that's a different story...
Most likely the central shutter diameter is the limiting factor!? But I won't talk about the MTF at f2.2, that's a different story...
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I agree Marc and also some other comments here . To me the S2 is a very grown up 35mm DSLR and with that comes the same limitations we always have had. BTW a couple Mamiya lenses shoot very well wide open too not to mention others. What we have not even discussed is the range of lenses available to Hassy,Contax,Hy6 and Mamiya bodies. I can take any V lens and use it on my Mamiya and Hassy owners have more choices than bayer makes aspirin. I have no doubts the S2 will perform wonderfully but I also have some real doubts a 24mm will NOT distort and like the M8 it is starting to sound like some processing is being done to the DNG before it leaves the camera as well. To correct a 24mm for distortion in the manufacturing process takes a special design with regards to corrections and that cost money. Now I am not sure on the in camera processing but any lens that we call perfect has to cost a fortune to make. Sorry that just makes sense. Let's look at one lens here that I know is very good since I have it BUT it does have it's issues. The Mamiya 28mm for example we all know from my writing at least and shooting the corners are a touch soft and it does have slight barrel. Let me remind you of a not so perfectly designed lens cost 5400 retail . What would a perfect designed equivalent cost ? . The Hassy 28 obviously costs somewhere around 4600 and again a not so perfectly designed lens. Hassy obviously fixes it in software and Mamiya has controls also to fix certain things. Okay my point being a perfect lens maybe 9 k to market. How do we balance that when Phocus corrects everything needed and mamiya gets it almost perfect except for the corners which they still are working on in the corrections. This is why i brought up I am really worried about the price when the S2 hits the streets and many MF shooters already have thousands invested in a system that may not be perfect but certainly works. Too me I agree it is a niche product and may really benefit those in 35mm land and want bigger . This camera is aimed right at the fashion guys more than any other industry and not so much other commercial applications that a lot of us here do.
Don't get me wrong I am excited about this product and I think it actually may do very well but if Leica over prices this with the quality of the A900, D3x and 1dsMKII on the markets under 8k for a body than this makes you wonder. Reason i said don't light up my rocket yet. I maybe impulsive but I still have to justify it in my head. Right now with money tight and a system already bought and paid for and the tought of taking a complete bath on it and than add thousands more . Hmmm somebody throw the cold water on me. LOL
Now I do like the s2 alot and it will perform very well but I agree with David K you will have a hard time against a P45 plus with Mamiya and good lenses and a tech camera on any level. We say bigger is better all the time and Leica is pushing that over 35mm than on the other hand it is smaller than the P45 sensor and they say now it will compete with it. Sorry that does not compute. You can't have bigger on one than say smaller on another is equal to it
Don't get me wrong I am excited about this product and I think it actually may do very well but if Leica over prices this with the quality of the A900, D3x and 1dsMKII on the markets under 8k for a body than this makes you wonder. Reason i said don't light up my rocket yet. I maybe impulsive but I still have to justify it in my head. Right now with money tight and a system already bought and paid for and the tought of taking a complete bath on it and than add thousands more . Hmmm somebody throw the cold water on me. LOL
Now I do like the s2 alot and it will perform very well but I agree with David K you will have a hard time against a P45 plus with Mamiya and good lenses and a tech camera on any level. We say bigger is better all the time and Leica is pushing that over 35mm than on the other hand it is smaller than the P45 sensor and they say now it will compete with it. Sorry that does not compute. You can't have bigger on one than say smaller on another is equal to it
jonoslack
Active member
Hi Marc (and everyone).
Now maybe I do have something worthwhile to contribute here.
I have no MF digital gear - despite a heavy duty campaign by Guy this time last year:ROTFL:
, I STILL have no digital MF gear.I think your point about sourcing customers from 'other sectors' is absolutely relevant.
When I read forum messages about problems with MF gear, compromises over lenses, flashes which don't work properly -
it goes on and ON and ON
Add to this a decision as to where to start? Which particular nightmare does one want to get tangled up in!
Along comes the S2 - it's beautiful, comprehensible, fast and, obviously, relatively easy to use.
There must be many many people like me who are experienced photographers, and who have shied off buying MF because it seems to be such a minefield - and such an expensive minefield too.
For us the S2 is a breath of fresh air. I won't be a 'first adopter' but I can tell you that I'll be saving my pennies, and I'm sure that there will be thousands like me doing the same.
Of course - I understand your arguments as you already understand your gear - and have lots of it. But, don't assume that there won't be many new photographers wanting to get MF quality from an elegantly designed system.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Jono I agree it will be a very powerful tool and certainly take anyone in 35mm way over the power curve. And for a lot of folks this will do the trick. It has a certain audience and we need to realize this and it keeps getting overlooked. Bottom line and I can't empathize this enough is it is a DSLR with MF quality at a certain level and above anything being made today in 35mm.
I guess the question Jono is that while you're right that thousands of folks will want (me..) and probably buy (not me...) the S2 when launched, will they be:
1) Pros replacing/upgrading from an existing system?
2) Well-heeled pros who can afford a secondary system for niche use or simply a shiny new gadget (we all know that allure).
3) Leica/general enthusiasts (excluding the odd sale) who can afford to and lust to step up their game (ideally with Leica)?
We all know who WILL buy the initial production volume, but we also know who Leica NEEDS TO HAVE BUY the S2 in sustained volume to ensure viability against Hassy, Leaf and Phamiya. You can be damn sure that H and PM will be offering even sweeter upgrade deals for existing customers as a matter of course given the current market.
You can also be sure that if the S2 launches well, H and PM's marketing discussions with customers will stress having to junk your existing glass to go S2, the small sensor, the fixed form factor (and it's value in X years) and Leica's track record in S&S, etc.
Leica is handing it's competitors a lot of ammunition courtesy of their recent history to use against them and they need to counter it readily.
Even having adapters to take H or M glass would have gone a long way - as would having S glass for PM instead of this (excuse my bluntness) idiotic (and typical) "not invented here" attitude when it comes to what can use their glass or bodies. Trying to break into a tightly contested and small market that is awash in H and M glass all all vintages, most of which can be used to one degree or the other between systems with an entirely new and truly closed system is a risky undertaking.
If your glass is that good - it will strike a cord with H and PM users on against their glass on their sensors -even if an adapter is required. If your body is that good, it will strike a cord even with 'lowly' H and M glass used on it, even in stop-down mode. Make the switch path as EASY and as painless as possible. H and PM are going to come after you regardless - given what's at stake, you might as well strike first and strike hard. Flood the installed and influential pro base with loaner bodies, kits, glass and adapters.
On the Max aperture issue F2.5 vs 2 vs 4 - have people forgotten to take into account the different sized sensors these lenses will be used with and the resulting DoF an S2 F2.5 lens will have vs say a Hassy F4 lens on one of their backs?
Now that I think of it. Assuming the S2 succeeds, just how far can Leica grow the sensor before they run out of form factor in the body? One KEY advantage of the Back+Body form factor is that the manufacturer can use the same back shell for any number of sensor sizes -- big $$ savings in design, tooling and integration testing - and time savings to market.
Sooner or later the S2's form is gowing to run out of real estate as they compete against higher-MP larger sensor kits AND a sea of 22-39 used kits at prices that make todays look like 2 years ago as people move upstream. At some point they will need to either slash prices hard and/or undertake a costly re-design of the S2, maybe even move to the traditional Back+Body design -- as they watch N & C coming on hard in their rearview mirrors.
All I can say is, good or bad, genius or lunatic, somebody in Solms has/had (excuse my bluntness) balls.
1) Pros replacing/upgrading from an existing system?
2) Well-heeled pros who can afford a secondary system for niche use or simply a shiny new gadget (we all know that allure).
3) Leica/general enthusiasts (excluding the odd sale) who can afford to and lust to step up their game (ideally with Leica)?
We all know who WILL buy the initial production volume, but we also know who Leica NEEDS TO HAVE BUY the S2 in sustained volume to ensure viability against Hassy, Leaf and Phamiya. You can be damn sure that H and PM will be offering even sweeter upgrade deals for existing customers as a matter of course given the current market.
You can also be sure that if the S2 launches well, H and PM's marketing discussions with customers will stress having to junk your existing glass to go S2, the small sensor, the fixed form factor (and it's value in X years) and Leica's track record in S&S, etc.
Leica is handing it's competitors a lot of ammunition courtesy of their recent history to use against them and they need to counter it readily.
Even having adapters to take H or M glass would have gone a long way - as would having S glass for PM instead of this (excuse my bluntness) idiotic (and typical) "not invented here" attitude when it comes to what can use their glass or bodies. Trying to break into a tightly contested and small market that is awash in H and M glass all all vintages, most of which can be used to one degree or the other between systems with an entirely new and truly closed system is a risky undertaking.
If your glass is that good - it will strike a cord with H and PM users on against their glass on their sensors -even if an adapter is required. If your body is that good, it will strike a cord even with 'lowly' H and M glass used on it, even in stop-down mode. Make the switch path as EASY and as painless as possible. H and PM are going to come after you regardless - given what's at stake, you might as well strike first and strike hard. Flood the installed and influential pro base with loaner bodies, kits, glass and adapters.
On the Max aperture issue F2.5 vs 2 vs 4 - have people forgotten to take into account the different sized sensors these lenses will be used with and the resulting DoF an S2 F2.5 lens will have vs say a Hassy F4 lens on one of their backs?
Now that I think of it. Assuming the S2 succeeds, just how far can Leica grow the sensor before they run out of form factor in the body? One KEY advantage of the Back+Body form factor is that the manufacturer can use the same back shell for any number of sensor sizes -- big $$ savings in design, tooling and integration testing - and time savings to market.
Sooner or later the S2's form is gowing to run out of real estate as they compete against higher-MP larger sensor kits AND a sea of 22-39 used kits at prices that make todays look like 2 years ago as people move upstream. At some point they will need to either slash prices hard and/or undertake a costly re-design of the S2, maybe even move to the traditional Back+Body design -- as they watch N & C coming on hard in their rearview mirrors.
All I can say is, good or bad, genius or lunatic, somebody in Solms has/had (excuse my bluntness) balls.
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Jono,
Thanks for saying this....again! One thing that I noticed is that many of us keep losing sight of just what the S2 system is being designed for, and who the target users really are. For many of those with more extensive MF gear already, the S2 will appear as a "supplement" to their kit. For a what may be an even larger number of DSLR folks that have been looking to MF, but have been scared off by price and other issues, the S2 may be a very attractive "replacement" for most of their 35mm DSLR gear, unless they are still needing very high ISO, fps speed, super-teles, etc.
For the target market, I think the S2 is looking very attractive. The pricing on this stuff is still going to be the deal maker/breaker. If Leica gets its collective head out of the clouds on some things, it could be a successful seller. By that I mean if they approach this as something like....."hey, we are providing 56% larger sensor with 37+MP of stellar resolution, not something any 35mm system can deliver, and some of the best glass to deliver to that, and we are looking between the present 35mm DSLR and MF....so we are pricing this thing at 50-60% above the top end DSLR..." If they come in around that price point and argument, and "sell MF quality, at DSLR pricing equivalent", they may be better able to pull this off. Just my thinking....and some wishing, as I too am one of those folks that wants MF quality (sensor and glass), but does not need ALL of the doodads, tech cameras, etc......yet....but have not jumped in because of the costs and other minefield reasons. I may not be able to work professionally at the higher end commercial jobs now, and am not expecting the S2 to completely change that part, but I do think it will open up a lot more possible opportunities "within its targeted applications" that are being talked about.....weddings, portraits, product shooting, some fine art, and most other areas where 35mm now plays.
Bottom line thoughts.....target buyers are more the top end 35mm DLSR folks pushing their gear to do similar MF stuff, but as a 35mm handling machine.
LJ
Thanks for saying this....again! One thing that I noticed is that many of us keep losing sight of just what the S2 system is being designed for, and who the target users really are. For many of those with more extensive MF gear already, the S2 will appear as a "supplement" to their kit. For a what may be an even larger number of DSLR folks that have been looking to MF, but have been scared off by price and other issues, the S2 may be a very attractive "replacement" for most of their 35mm DSLR gear, unless they are still needing very high ISO, fps speed, super-teles, etc.
For the target market, I think the S2 is looking very attractive. The pricing on this stuff is still going to be the deal maker/breaker. If Leica gets its collective head out of the clouds on some things, it could be a successful seller. By that I mean if they approach this as something like....."hey, we are providing 56% larger sensor with 37+MP of stellar resolution, not something any 35mm system can deliver, and some of the best glass to deliver to that, and we are looking between the present 35mm DSLR and MF....so we are pricing this thing at 50-60% above the top end DSLR..." If they come in around that price point and argument, and "sell MF quality, at DSLR pricing equivalent", they may be better able to pull this off. Just my thinking....and some wishing, as I too am one of those folks that wants MF quality (sensor and glass), but does not need ALL of the doodads, tech cameras, etc......yet....but have not jumped in because of the costs and other minefield reasons. I may not be able to work professionally at the higher end commercial jobs now, and am not expecting the S2 to completely change that part, but I do think it will open up a lot more possible opportunities "within its targeted applications" that are being talked about.....weddings, portraits, product shooting, some fine art, and most other areas where 35mm now plays.
Bottom line thoughts.....target buyers are more the top end 35mm DLSR folks pushing their gear to do similar MF stuff, but as a 35mm handling machine.
LJ
carstenw
Active member
Of course, I always forget about that. What is the MTF like compared to the 110/2? What about the lens in general?
carstenw
Active member
Why? They just do the same as anyone else: update the speed of the electronics slightly and release the same body with a new sensor...
Everyone keeps pointing out how you have to replace sensor AND body, but the body price is irrelevant here, compared to the sensor. Mamiya, Phase, Hasselblad and so on all throw a body after you when walk out the door after buying a new sensor. Phase even throws lenses at you. I would say that nearly ALL the profit is in the sensor, the way they are all acting.
jonoslack
Active member
HI There
Although, obviously not amongst the shooters around here!
Hi Rob:
4) New professionals wishing to get into MF quality without spending years learning about kit.
I also feel that the sensor size is going to produce quite enough real estate to produce images for all but the very best requirements - for as long as it takes. As for N & C coming hard in their rearview - they may, but inexplicably and astonishingly Leica seem (for the first time in 50 years) to actually be AHEAD of the game! Added to which, I really can't see N & C creating lenses to compete. And at this level lenses really do matter.
I also wonder whether the financial crisis may not work to their advantage: As long as they can keep their heads above water, there isn't going to be a huge amount of R&D money with their competitors, and if the system really stands out in the 'middle ground' (as I think it will) they're likely to have a much bigger head start than they could otherwise have hoped for.
Price? of course it's relevant, but much less relevant in a market where you don't have any direct competition.
I think that what I'm trying to say is that this market place is infinitely larger than that of MF people wishing to simplify. In fact, potentially I think it's a larger market than all the current MF market put together.
Although, obviously not amongst the shooters around here!
Hi Rob:
You missed out 4:
4) New professionals wishing to get into MF quality without spending years learning about kit.
I just don't agree with this - I don't think a sea of cheap 22 and 39 kits is going to have anything to do with a fresh market - except with existing users - same arguments apply.
I also feel that the sensor size is going to produce quite enough real estate to produce images for all but the very best requirements - for as long as it takes. As for N & C coming hard in their rearview - they may, but inexplicably and astonishingly Leica seem (for the first time in 50 years) to actually be AHEAD of the game! Added to which, I really can't see N & C creating lenses to compete. And at this level lenses really do matter.
I do agree with this - but fortune honours the brave!
I also wonder whether the financial crisis may not work to their advantage: As long as they can keep their heads above water, there isn't going to be a huge amount of R&D money with their competitors, and if the system really stands out in the 'middle ground' (as I think it will) they're likely to have a much bigger head start than they could otherwise have hoped for.
Price? of course it's relevant, but much less relevant in a market where you don't have any direct competition.
Ah, I love these debates (wife either hides the CC or her eyes glaze over when I start a sentence with words like "camera"). Nice thing is here the debates stay mature.
Carsten
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You can do that to a degree - tweak the sensor larger, squeeze more, smaller photocells into the same or that slightly larger sensor, work of pixy dust into the noise management software, stick gapless lenses over the sites, etc etc. However, that si simply delaying the inevitable. Integrating the electronics (e.g. 3 chips become one) will help to a small degree, but it too is a delaying action.
Sooner or later, due to that nasty noise/MP density physics problem and assuming you want to play in the same sandbox as the other kids a form factor like the S2 or any DSLR will literally run out of real estate in the shell for the sensor (plus electronics, etc) you need at X MP to deliver the IQ/ISO you want.
At that point, you'll need to hit the 'reset' button, enlarge the sensor, give the photocells some breathing room, get your ISO/MP comfort zone back and, as required, enlarge the body. That is added cost, time to market, etc etc vs. competitors who have that extra space already having come from the film world where they needed backs that fit existing film bodies. This "future use" real estate having, of course, come at the cost of extra bulk for users. It also came in handy for manufacturers when the electronics surrounding the sensors were far less integrated than today.
It's not far from the dilemma faced by Canon, Nikon and Sony with 24x36 24MP+ sensors - how far can they stretch that sensor's density before they need to reach for the 'reset button', move up the food chain - and start poaching glass gurus from H and M? Big $$, but may be necessary as MFDB kist keep dropping in value and moving downstream.
Look at the Nikon MX rumors. The first one of C or N to do that will compel the other, followed in X years by Sony, to do the same and suddenly the S2 has DIRECT form-factor competition of a very nasty nature.
Carsten
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You can do that to a degree - tweak the sensor larger, squeeze more, smaller photocells into the same or that slightly larger sensor, work of pixy dust into the noise management software, stick gapless lenses over the sites, etc etc. However, that si simply delaying the inevitable. Integrating the electronics (e.g. 3 chips become one) will help to a small degree, but it too is a delaying action.
Sooner or later, due to that nasty noise/MP density physics problem and assuming you want to play in the same sandbox as the other kids a form factor like the S2 or any DSLR will literally run out of real estate in the shell for the sensor (plus electronics, etc) you need at X MP to deliver the IQ/ISO you want.
At that point, you'll need to hit the 'reset' button, enlarge the sensor, give the photocells some breathing room, get your ISO/MP comfort zone back and, as required, enlarge the body. That is added cost, time to market, etc etc vs. competitors who have that extra space already having come from the film world where they needed backs that fit existing film bodies. This "future use" real estate having, of course, come at the cost of extra bulk for users. It also came in handy for manufacturers when the electronics surrounding the sensors were far less integrated than today.
It's not far from the dilemma faced by Canon, Nikon and Sony with 24x36 24MP+ sensors - how far can they stretch that sensor's density before they need to reach for the 'reset button', move up the food chain - and start poaching glass gurus from H and M? Big $$, but may be necessary as MFDB kist keep dropping in value and moving downstream.
Look at the Nikon MX rumors. The first one of C or N to do that will compel the other, followed in X years by Sony, to do the same and suddenly the S2 has DIRECT form-factor competition of a very nasty nature.
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Jono - good point on #4 in my list.
On the flip-side, I can get a used Hassy 503CWD for $7-8K, about the cost of a D3x and likely less than one S2 lens. Now while 'only' 16MP, they're 16M very fat and from all accounts very sexy photocells, get me into that larger real-estate, comes with a lens and a HUGE installed base of 'cheap' glass. Learning curve? Well the $$$$$ saved buys a LOT of time asking questions and shooting test pics.
In 12 months most that $8K will be closer to $6K. That same DSLR-esque price curve is in place for NEW 503FWD II kits (CFVII back, 40/4 lens ) or DL28, etc kits for $12-14K - or H3d31 kits for $18K.
On the rest of my points, we'll agree to disagree ;>
On the flip-side, I can get a used Hassy 503CWD for $7-8K, about the cost of a D3x and likely less than one S2 lens. Now while 'only' 16MP, they're 16M very fat and from all accounts very sexy photocells, get me into that larger real-estate, comes with a lens and a HUGE installed base of 'cheap' glass. Learning curve? Well the $$$$$ saved buys a LOT of time asking questions and shooting test pics.
In 12 months most that $8K will be closer to $6K. That same DSLR-esque price curve is in place for NEW 503FWD II kits (CFVII back, 40/4 lens ) or DL28, etc kits for $12-14K - or H3d31 kits for $18K.
On the rest of my points, we'll agree to disagree ;>
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jonoslack
Active member
HI Rob
Most of your post I'll simply agree to differ with
I simply don't believe that sensors are going to get bigger and bigger, and that people will want larger and larger files. There is a point where it really isn't that important and the trade offs are not worth the real estate.
I suppose it all hinges on whether you believe sensor sizes will keep on growing for middle of the road systems. Seems to me that the current evidence suggests not.
Most of your post I'll simply agree to differ with
Seems to me that their current problem is getting decent glass for the sensors they already have.
I simply don't believe that sensors are going to get bigger and bigger, and that people will want larger and larger files. There is a point where it really isn't that important and the trade offs are not worth the real estate.
Whether Nikon was planning an MX or not - I can't see it appearing for some time to come - and the idea that they'll produce lenses as nice as these Leica one's look seems to me to be pretty far fetched.
I suppose it all hinges on whether you believe sensor sizes will keep on growing for middle of the road systems. Seems to me that the current evidence suggests not.
Marc,
The only segment of photo gear that has grown lately is the DSLR market, based on some recent studies I have seen. Most of that growth is NOT to professionals, but to moms wanting a better camera than their digicam to capture kids at soccer, kids around the house, kids at parties, etc., etc. This group is not really caring about or using the same things that more advanced amateurs and pros use a 35mm DSLR for, yet they have that capability in hand now. Heck, I would venture that most 35mm shooters do not get above ISO 800 most of the time, and few use high fps unless showing off, or trying to capture something in sports. And you know most 35mm users are NOT carting 400mm f2.8 glass around either. The big market growth in 35mm DLSR has been for better image quality over digicams. I think the same sort of things apply to those 35mm DSLR owners that may be looking toward MF or this S2. In that respect, as Jono responded, the "target buyers" could be way, way bigger from the 35mm DSLR segment than all of the present MF segment. Time will tell on this.
For me personally, the S2 will NOT cover all the stuff I do now. I do need higher ISO, higher fps, super-tele and other high-end DSLR features, but I also want a better quality image for multi-purpose use, and just better quality. While I can get that better image quality from present MF, the MF gear does not help me with much beyond that either, but its costs are considerable in comparison. However, that is me and what I shoot. I do think that there are a lot of 35mm DSLR wedding shooters, portrait shooters, fine art shooters, product shooters, and even some PJ-type folks that would be interested in the S2 and what it has to offer. For them, it could be a "replacement" system. For others like me and maybe most MF shooters, it may be more of the "supplement" system. With that in mind, the new potential target group may be considerably larger than the present MF group, as it looks to tap a lot more 35mm DSLR folks just wanting bigger and better quality, but not wanting MF prices and hassles over gear and stuff. We shall see if this plays out that way. I am not jumping anywhere just yet as the business I do now is changing, 35mm DSLR is topping out, but MF is still needing some better pricing and simplification and speed and.... If I had to jump today, it most likely would be to Hassy, but that is just the point....there is still so much churning in the MF segment that it could all change next month or so. I do think Phase/Mamiya will toss something new into the mix, but will it really be any better? Just do not know, and while that is still somewhat the case for the S2, it looks like it could hit a lot of marks for what I want MF for. Still need the 35mm DSLR for my other stuff, but that too is changing.
There is no perfect camera, nor perfect camera system for everybody, or at least for most folks. The issue becomes how much is one willing to spend, and how much use are they realistically going to get from whatever they buy? I do not shoot, nor need a tech camera today. The present MF backs are very pricey, but pitiful on things that I think important while shooting (LCD, weather seals, ease of use, etc.), but that is just me. I want my gear to get out of my way, not be the focus of why I am shooting.
LJ
P.S. Not saying you have and shoot what you do for that reason, but I do think there are a lot of MF shooters that are more caught up with the gear than anything else. That is fine for them, but it does not do much for me nor my interests
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