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S2 and my impressions.

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Let me start this with some background that I think is important and a little different than Davids excellent blog post. Let's say I came into looking at the S2 with very skeptical emotions. Given the fact I own a MF system today and come form all of Leica's digital camera's at least the DMR and M8 and I know what to expect with Leica gear and how it works and how they think in a lot of ways. I also have very specific needs and problems also. My big concern with MF is speed in shooting, shutter delay , ISO, review, tethered and ISO and all stuff that I deal with today that can use some improvement. So believe it or not jumping over the moon to get a Leica per say is not a priority at all.So I did few this in a very neutral state. This takes some real care in thought for me to buy and still does even after the demo. Now I did the demo than went back and sat down with David and camera and had a semi-private chat. I did learn a few more things than maybe has been posted that I will share. My one concern is warranty and service and like the Phase module , Leica will offer 2 to 3 levels of service and repair and loaners. Obviously they will be priced accordingly which they should. Basic service most likely like the M8 with your normal warranty. Than another level that will have loaner service on a 24 or 48 hour turn to get a loaner. Thispart is still being developed so don't hang on every work. Basically you want loaner service than that will be at a higher price than the basic warranty. Which BTW all service and repairs are done in Solms or NJ.

Now here is another important part. All of this loaner service will go through preferred Leica dealers. So David being a preferred dealer I buy through him with this warranty he will handle my needs. Now let me add something just because a shop sells does not mean they are a preferred dealer. So only those dealers will be able to sell The S2 system and only those will handle all parts of it. Not sure how you get to be a preferred dealer but we can all guess. sales and service records that match those criteria set by Leica. I need to post this before my laptop shuts down
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Lets continue on with the camera. Well it is really well built and certainly up to Leica standards and rubber gaskets will be on back of all lenses and any opening on camera, battery, CF card door, under dials and the list goes on. So very well protected from the elements. I am just going to go random here to get thoughts down so jumping around is possible . LOL battery is 7.4 Volt 2500 and 18.5 watts or so . Not very big and a lot like a Canon 1d series in size maybe 2 inches big. There is a lever to release the battery like a mirror lock up style on the DMR. Lenses are very interesting and fall in two groups 72 and 82 filter size and they all look to use the same tubing size only bigger and smaller for each type of lens. They are not like a Nikon that start small at the mount and flare out. They start and stop the same size all the way though the barrel .
Okay let me jump back to camera speed . I felt little to no shutter lag and the release is in the same spot as the DMR and very user friendly which I still think to this day the best release around on the DMR and followed it's way to the S2 it is not on top but forward facing.

The FPS felt really nice coming from the MF world and faster than many to almost all of them. Due the 1 one thousand 2 one thousand and your pretty much there. Not Nikon or Canon speed but very fast and better than my back. AF one center point seemed very accurate with just a touch of hunting in low light, They all hunt so get over that one fast. Very normal and also the AF focusing was pretty quick when switching from one area to another. Again let me remind you this is no 35mm but MF and this world is slower but this Leica is very good at speed . Review was almost instant and so is zooming a huge plus here given the file size and a very nice 3 inch LCD . Which BTW will be sold without the saffire glass and also with it. The saffire glass in a 3 inch size is almost unheard of so the price for this option maybe high . But glad to see we have a option here and leica wanted folks to have this option because of the cost of the saffire. I think this was very good thinking myself. Okay the top deck display shutter , ISO, aperture and a few others looks really nice. Also the three in LCD you have a option to see all camera data with I love this feature. 4 push buttons to control menu , playback and other stuff and the menu system was leica clean. Very nice and I don't know all the options tonight but very well thought out. Vertical grip looked nice with it attached there will be a handstrap. Which I am all for the DMR was the best on the planet.

So the ergonomics are very nice. I was telling Jack on the phone if you walked into a store and picked up a D3 a lot like that very DSLR style. No i should explain this because in MF there is nothing like this kind of DSLR style. They are more boxy and square. So for me this is a huge welcome sign, because it does feel like that style which many of us like. Now it is heavy per say but you are talking Leica and build quality and that does not come in a light weight package

Okay I will continue in morning , too tired and typing on a laptop is not my idea of fun sitting in bed. Pardon the typo's
 

Forrest Black

New member
Thanks for your report, Guy.

If Leica means to woo professionals, their first line of defence for service and support should be the rental houses and not Preferred Leica Dealers unless there are no rental houses in the area.

I don't think even David Farkas would like to get into the rental business for that is not his business model. A camera that sits on the shelf does not earn its keep. How many S2s can David afford to keep in his inventory as replacements?

When you are shooting a campaign or a wedding, a 24-hour turnaround time for a loaner is untenable because you have a studio and a whole team waiting like models, talents, stylists, etc. for the former and an angry bride and her mother in the latter and they cost you big dollars. When you need a replacement, you need it NOW. Rental houses are best-placed to see to this need, not Preferred Leica Dealers unless they too wish to be in the rental business. Rental houses keep the cameras checked with a certain number in service at any one time. It is in their business model to keep cameras working and circulating.

As a professional, I want to know that if a camera breaks down in the middle of a shoot, I can send my assistant to the nearest rental house and get a replacement immediately. If I invest my business in the S2, I need to have the assurance that when I need a replacement, it is there within the hour at my nearest rental house .

What am I gonna do with Leica Preferred? Hey, Dave, the S2 is toast, FedEx one over to New York/Los Angeles? Sure, Forrest, tomorrow at 9am, see ya. And meanwhile, I am paying to rent Pier 59 for one more day, model/talent for one more day, lights and stuff for one more day, assistants, stylists for one more day (oh, they are booked for another gig tomorrow, shoot, I am screwed, gotta look for another team), the art director needs to make a deadline, his client is fuming mad, etc. The cost to me and my reputation: $10 000, $20 000, $30 000 or more. I may as well buy a back-up S2 or switch over to Hasselblad or Canon/Nikon. At least, I know that with those I can run over to my nearest rental house and get them replaced.

I think you get my drift.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I think it is worth waiting to actually SEE how it shakes out rather than dismiss it already. Who knows who is going to be a preferred dealer and who is going to rent it? In LA and Santa Barbara, Samy's had (at least the last time I was there) a Leica shop-in-shop and rented Leica. I can see them selling and renting the S2. Same goes for Calumet...I don't think they had a shop in shop, but they sell Leica and would probably rent the S2 (they rent the Hy6, AFi, Phase One and Hasselblad). In New York, places like Fotocare, Calumet again, Lens and Repro, the Photo Village sell and/or rent Leica and would be likely culprits to rent. I don't know about other big cities, but there are still people out there who sell and rent Leica...it is not all boutique stores.
 

Forrest Black

New member
Stuart, is your renting experience limited to Samy's and Calumet and Photo Village? I don't think you know what you're talking about here, with all due respect to you and your high learning. You do not know what I am referring to. Do you honestly think professionals who shoot fashion, advertising and commerce, etc. rent their stuff from Photo Village? I will give you a hint: look for Profoto, Broncolor, Matthews, Hasselblad, etc... Look for gaffer's tape, clamps, backdrops, gels, dulling sprays, foam-cores, Cinefoil, etc. OK, look in the pages of PDN.

I am not dismissing anything. I am shedding, what I hope, is some light on things Leica may have missed. Leica must get this right from the get-go by placing the S2s where they can help the most. Hell, I may sound adversarial but I am not. Having Preferred Leica Dealers service the professionals is missing the point by a long shot.

I don't think you shoot for a living, Stuart. Please allow me to talk about what I know about.
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Stuart, is your renting experience limited to Samy's and Calumet and Photo Village? I don't think you know what you're talking about here, with all due respect to you and your high learning. You do not know what I am referring to. Do you honestly think professionals who shoot fashion, advertising and commerce, etc. rent their stuff from Photo Village? I will give you a hint: look for Profoto, Broncolor, Matthews, Hasselblad, etc... Look for gaffer's tape, clamps, backdrops, gels, dulling sprays, foam-cores, Cinefoil, etc. OK, look in the pages of PDN.

I am not dismissing anything. I am shedding, what I hope, is some light on things Leica may have missed. Leica must get this right from the get-go by placing the S2s where they can help the most. Hell, I may sound adversarial but I am not. Having Preferred Leica Dealers service the professionals is missing the point by a long shot.

I don't think you shoot for a living, Stuart. Please allow me to talk about what I know about.
In Chicago, things are a bit friendlier. Pros, consumers get together and rent at Calumet. Some go to Helix. That's about it. No need to quarrel over it.
 

Graham Mitchell

New member
I may as well buy a back-up S2 or switch over to Hasselblad or Canon/Nikon. At least, I know that with those I can run over to my nearest rental house and get them replaced.
Or just buy one S2 and rent a Canon plus lens to cover the unlikely emergency situation...

There's no need to be able to get the exact same camera to cover an emergency.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Forrest -- I am shooting for a living and assisting in a foreign country. When I was in the US, I was in school and occasionally assisting. The people I assisted for rented at Calumet, Lens and Repro, Fotocare and Adorama. I certainly don't claim to know everything, but I have a lot of experience with Leica and I am just trying to speculate as to where it will be likely to find them, and to gently suggest that it is better to see how it shakes out rather than freak out about something which might not even be an issue. If it does turn out to be an issue for your particular brand of professional photography (which is?), then there are other cameras that will likely fit the bill. And I certainly have no issue with "allowing [you] to talk about what [you] know about." You seem to be quite capable of that without any interference from me!
 

fotografz

Well-known member
This will be a continual squabbling match between Leicphiles and others with a varying degree of need. :argue:

Just goes to show you how suspension of reason can grip discussions on both ends of the spectrum :):mad::):mad:

For example, I think it is amusing to listen to many of the folks who habitually criticized Hasselblad's philosophy of a closed system, but are all atwitter over the S2 ... which redefines a "closed system" :rolleyes:

Guy, God love 'em, is dangerous to listen to ... his knowledge base and enthusiasm are a threat to personal bank accounts world-wide. Yep, a pusher that's also a junkie is a particularly lethal combination ... he sells you on the drug, then shoots up with you. :ROTFL:

I love the caveats, which are transparent as hell ... Guy's on the slipery slope with greasy shoes and a rocket strapped to his back.

If Guy doesn't have an S2 in future, I'd be shocked silly. Not that he shouldn't, that's his business and no one else's ... but we'll be in for a year of OMGs that make you feel like you're shooting with a Kodak Instamatic with flash cubes by comparison. :D

But that's the fun of it, isn't it? :thumbs:
 

LJL

New member
When you are shooting a campaign or a wedding, a 24-hour turnaround time for a loaner is untenable because you have a studio and a whole team waiting like models, talents, stylists, etc. for the former and an angry bride and her mother in the latter and they cost you big dollars. When you need a replacement, you need it NOW. Rental houses are best-placed to see to this need, not Preferred Leica Dealers unless they too wish to be in the rental business. Rental houses keep the cameras checked with a certain number in service at any one time. It is in their business model to keep cameras working and circulating.

What am I gonna do with Leica Preferred? Hey, Dave, the S2 is toast, FedEx one over to New York/Los Angeles? Sure, Forrest, tomorrow at 9am, see ya. And meanwhile, I am paying to rent Pier 59 for one more day, model/talent for one more day, lights and stuff for one more day, assistants, stylists for one more day (oh, they are booked for another gig tomorrow, shoot, I am screwed, gotta look for another team), the art director needs to make a deadline, his client is fuming mad, etc. The cost to me and my reputation: $10 000, $20 000, $30 000 or more. I may as well buy a back-up S2 or switch over to Hasselblad or Canon/Nikon. At least, I know that with those I can run over to my nearest rental house and get them replaced.

I think you get my drift.
Forrest,
With all due respect, if the shoots are THAT big and THAT important and THAT costly, would you not go to them with at least a spare body or some other viable back-up? I know I would. I have had shutters fail in the middle of a "once in a lifetime" competition for some clients. I simply went back to my truck and got another body, which I always have as back-up. I realize the costs of that gear is not cheap, but losing the entire shoot over a gamble that nothing will happen does not sound attractive to me.

In that respect, I do think it important that gear be available within a very reasonable turnaround, and it sounds like it might be. We will have to see. In the examples you give, I would have rented the extra body or whatever BEFORE the shoot to make sure no time was lost. The client would be billed for that "insurance", but that is a different approach. Just seems like if business is that good and demanding, which it is not right now, you have the spare gear, or you rent it in advance to cover things as needed. Now, if they all crap out in a catastrophic failure or something, you still reach in to the bag and pull out a DSLR, or your planner to schedule a reshoot if possible.

Sorry if that sounds out of place, but your scenario description sounded a bit extreme in its unpreparedness to me. If stuff is THAT critical you go in prepared, rather than fret over what is now an unknown recovery plan.

LJ
 

carstenw

Active member
For example, I think it is amusing to listen to many of the folks who habitually criticized Hasselblad's philosophy of a closed system, but are all atwitter over the S2 ... which redefines a "closed system" :rolleyes:
The S2 redefining "closed" is quite an exaggeration. They are simply closed, just like Canon and Nikon.

Anyway, the problem is not with Hasselblad *being* closed. It is with them *going* closed, after years of selling H1 and H2 cameras to Phase One owners, for example. The real failure here is to sell the system as open and then go closed.

In the end, the Hasselblad H3DII is probably the best system out there right now, and the price is right, but the massive betrayal of trust must have left many Phase One/H2 owners fuming. As far as I understand it, the H2 is still the most common MF body in rental shops, in spite of the existence of the H3D and H3DII for a long time now.

The second part of the problem is that the H2F is the only way to shoot film with a new Hasselblad, yet it doesn't allow backs, except the massively overpriced CF series (at least until recently). If you have an H3D and want to shoot film, you have to buy another body. They are so busy protecting their business from all conceivable angles that they are completely forgetting that they are making their customers' lives miserable at the same time.

Phase One is still trying to figure out how to put backs on the H2F, as far as I know, but I am sure that if they should ever succeed, Hasselblad would immediately update it in an incompatible way.

The third part of the problem is that there are very many V camera owners who have been begging for a large-square-sensor CFV for years now, yet Hasselblad is just doing their best to kill and bury these awesome old cameras, rather than servicing their decade-long faithful customers. It doesn't even have to be anything special. I am sure that a 48x48mm 22MP or 30MP sensor would satisfy the vast majority of these people.

In my mind, in spite of the otherwise apparently excellent cameras, this is just way below the belt, and I would not buy one if for no other reason, then this.
 

LJL

New member
Guy,
Thanks for the updating......keep the thoughts and impressions coming. Some of us are interested and may be making plans and decisions for when this thing comes alive. Lots of unknowns still, but it sounds like either they are talking a good game plan (possibly repeating the wishes/questions of some as probable solution scenarios, though they may not be), but at least it sounds like some thought is going into it. We will argue and discuss all the painful details and unknowns anyway, many of which may change by the time things are released, so present impressions and information is still useful for present discussions and thoughts.

LJ
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Preferred dealers are really any Leica retailer that fits Leica"s Pro dealer criteria. These outlets will sell the S2 and if you need a loaner than you will work with that dealer and Leica. The dealer actually will handle this warranty service. In short the camera goes down than you contact your dealer and it is handled from there. Rental houses are any rental houses that want to rent the S2 just like they will rent a Elinchrom lighting system. This is no different than any other gear if they carry the S2 than that is one shop you can rent from. Just like renting a Nikon . Samy's is a good example of rental shop that if they want to carry it as a rental than that is there choice. Now a retailer that sells the camera does not have to be a rental house either. David is not a rental house but does sell the S2. But a place like Calumet for example could actually do both sell and also be a rental house .So these can be very separate places. Depending on what that outlet's business model is. Really no different that what is in place today on the rental side just certain dealers that actually support the sale of the S2. A strictly mail order only type business will not be selling the S2. I guess one great way to look at this is the brick and mortar type Leica stores.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
This will be a continual squabbling match between Leicphiles and others with a varying degree of need. :argue:

Just goes to show you how suspension of reason can grip discussions on both ends of the spectrum :):mad::):mad:

For example, I think it is amusing to listen to many of the folks who habitually criticized Hasselblad's philosophy of a closed system, but are all atwitter over the S2 ... which redefines a "closed system" :rolleyes:

Guy, God love 'em, is dangerous to listen to ... his knowledge base and enthusiasm are a threat to personal bank accounts world-wide. Yep, a pusher that's also a junkie is a particularly lethal combination ... he sells you on the drug, then shoots up with you. :ROTFL:

I love the caveats, which are transparent as hell ... Guy's on the slipery slope with greasy shoes and a rocket strapped to his back.

If Guy doesn't have an S2 in future, I'd be shocked silly. Not that he shouldn't, that's his business and no one else's ... but we'll be in for a year of OMGs that make you feel like you're shooting with a Kodak Instamatic with flash cubes by comparison. :D

But that's the fun of it, isn't it? :thumbs:
Price,Price and Price and no hurry to jump off the diving board. This has to make real sense.
 

LJL

New member
So, Guy, in your handling of the S2, you talk a bit about its focus and shutter lag. What about over all responsiveness? Were you able to shoot things and look at them on something other than the LCD? Was anything other than ISO 100 available yet? What did that look like?

Did Leica talk about how their (Metz) flash will work with the S2? How accurate is the TTL part, or is it TTL-like?

On the lenses, what are their estimates of CS v. CS without the shutter availabilities? Did they have anything other than the earlier prototypes available to test out? The size and handling descriptions sound nice, but it is the optics and how that looks that most of us are more curious about.

Sorry to pepper with all the questions. Your impressions and recollections of some of this stuff does play into the vicarious experience for some ;-)

LJ
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Actually, just to clarify, we do rent gear like Nikon, Canon, Avenger, Elincrhom, Profoto, etc. We also have Leica test drive gear.

We don't have as much rental inventory as a large studio in NYC or even here in Miami, but we do a pretty steady rental business to local pros and amateurs.

I do plan on renting the S2 and S-system lenses. We are in a major fashion and advertising market, so if the three or four major rental studios don't carry it (which I'm sure they will), then we will fill the gap. So, Forrest, if you were shooting here in Miami, I'd have you covered. In fact, I'd drive to your shoot to hand deliver you a replacement myself within an hour.

In any of the major photo markets there should be solid representation and support from larger dealers and rental studios alike. Most rental houses don't offer support and actually buy their gear from dealers, not direct. When a Phase back breaks, they call up their dealer. I expect the same situation with the S2.

David
 

fotografz

Well-known member
The S2 redefining "closed" is quite an exaggeration. They are simply closed, just like Canon and Nikon.

Anyway, the problem is not with Hasselblad *being* closed. It is with them *going* closed, after years of selling H1 and H2 cameras to Phase One owners, for example. The real failure here is to sell the system as open and then go closed.

In the end, the Hasselblad H3DII is probably the best system out there right now, and the price is right, but the massive betrayal of trust must have left many Phase One/H2 owners fuming. As far as I understand it, the H2 is still the most common MF body in rental shops, in spite of the existence of the H3D and H3DII for a long time now.

The second part of the problem is that the H2F is the only way to shoot film with a new Hasselblad, yet it doesn't allow backs, except the massively overpriced CF series (at least until recently). If you have an H3D and want to shoot film, you have to buy another body. They are so busy protecting their business from all conceivable angles that they are completely forgetting that they are making their customers' lives miserable at the same time.

Phase One is still trying to figure out how to put backs on the H2F, as far as I know, but I am sure that if they should ever succeed, Hasselblad would immediately update it in an incompatible way.

The third part of the problem is that there are very many V camera owners who have been begging for a large-square-sensor CFV for years now, yet Hasselblad is just doing their best to kill and bury these awesome old cameras, rather than servicing their decade-long faithful customers. It doesn't even have to be anything special. I am sure that a 48x48mm 22MP or 30MP sensor would satisfy the vast majority of these people.

In my mind, in spite of the otherwise apparently excellent cameras, this is just way below the belt, and I would not buy one if for no other reason, then this.
You actually make my point exactly. Why would Hasselblad ... a digital back maker that also makes cameras ... want to sell Phase One backs? Who cares if H1/2 Phase One users are pissed? Not me. Not Hasselblad I'll bet ... because they did nothing for Hasselbald's survival or prosperity. I'm sorry, but it's a ludicrous argument wracked with emotional vagueness. I also wonder at the reference to over-priced CF backs since they have always been the same price or less than any comparable Phase One unit, and can be used on any camera you wish without the unit going bye-bye or paying a mount change fee. Now, it's for sure that the CF-II is less expensive.

RE: the S2 redefining "closed" ... Canon and Nikon are not Medium Format systems ... just in case you didn't realize that ... it's an apples to watermelons analogy ;)
 

robertwright

New member
There are a few cases (one I can think of) of a boutique product making inroads-Briese lighting-I don't know of anyone buying Briese HMI but you can rent it and lots of very high end pros do and film as well. There are outlets in LA and NY and of course in Germany. Rent the stuff in Paris and a guy gets into a Mercedes panel van in Berlin and starts a long drive...with spares.

Most of the rental houses in NY afaik just buy the gear (lease) from their dealer and stock as much of it as they need to service rental. It gets turned over when new products become available. Fotocare, Trec, BrieseNY, etc. Then you have your more entry-level friendly calumet, adorama, lens&repro. As friendly as the guys are at photovillage, they are not set up to be a "rental house" either by location, gear or I suspect inclination.

As long as the S2 is available from a couple of outlets, Trec, FC, Briese for example, it would achieve sufficient traction/support in rental. And these days in the nY market owning a camera is really not an issue. I know it is different in other parts of the country.

If the tethered support is good I can see this camera being the must-have for fashion shooters mainly because it is so boutique, like Briese, for example. Well known only in the stratosphere.

IMO Leica needs to do some outreach also to extend it's rep downward to emerging photographers, mamiya seems to have always done this well through MAC america. Get some new shooters using a product and overturn the old order. This is how the RZ and M7 came to be the dominant mf solution over Hassy, by aggressive pricing, buy-backs, and aggressive financing solutions.

...and right there I have contradicted myself:ROTFL:

but the point is, new market penetration and seeing behind the scenes videos of mert&marcus, etc shooting fashion for W with the S2-it becomes what everyone has to have.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Leica would be wise to hold seminars for assistants and digital capture techs ... they're the ones that need to know how the damned thing works ... LOL!

Create a buzz there and the pros who don't spend their lives on forums like this will hear about it.:thumbup:
 
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