S2 and my impressions.

[Guy Mancuso]

Thanks for the nice comments , I am sure all the forum members appreciate this. I know I do. I started this over at LUf and just loaded with BS from my seat. No more i am done if they can't control the attitude and users I have no interest and frankly bottom line why Jack and I started this forum with a amazing attitude and the joy of photography in our members and I know that is why they are here. I am staying home. LOL

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I'm even more curious about the 30-90 vario instead of the 24mm. It offers most focal lengthes but it's quite fast and tiny in comparison to the 35-90 from Fuji. I've handled it minutes after I visited the Leica booth at Photokina - it's huge, it doesn't cover 645, it doesn't work without digital correction, it's slow, it's heavy and costs 7k$...

But maybe that's also the answer to the 24mm-distortion... Huge lenses with normal focal length a f5,6-f16 - you don't seriously expect major differences between a 6k$-Leica/Zeiss or 2k$-Mamiya/Fuji/Whatever... But more demanding situations (open aperture, corners of 645, extreme focal lengthes, varios) demand more sophisticated lens-designs/manufacturing-technologies. Or these lenses really will cost 10k$...

Guy, I remember the DMR-bible - I'm sure Leica does that, too. You alone propably sold them >50 DMRs - they should give you a golden S2! Seriously Mr. Kaufmann, do you listen?

P.S.
Was nothing said about the resolution of the display?

The 30-90 is not going to be released on opening day but I agree it did look nice and fairly small. I honestly think and no one is going to say this but crazy old me, just because I am nuts enough to say it . LOL

They have to be making these corrections in the DNG like they do today in the M8. Just from optical theory there is no way to make a retro focus design without some Distortion even a 35mm wide lens has some distortion. No way a 24 or even the 30-90 can be without some of this. Now i don't know optical design well enough to say the bigger the elements the less effect this may have . I would assume it does and makes sense. But I tend to think the lenses are calibrated at the factory like they say they are but that calibration gets read by the camera and the finishing corrections get applied to the DNG as it is written to the card. Hassy and Mamiya take a different approach and use there raw processing engines to make the needed corrections. So now Leica can say externally all the corrections are done and nothing externally needs to be done. little slight of hand there if you know what i mean. It is being done just to the DNG which i admit is maybe a better solution since you can go to any raw converter out there. Just like the cyan drift is corrected in a M8 with a IR filter and the camera set to ON/IR that data is being written to the raw file before it exits the camera. Same principle.

Like Marc said a 24 1.4 new M lens for 6k and a Nocti for 10k. Even 33 percent less is still a fortune. Seriously I want to be proven wrong and on release I want to be flamed to all hell if I am wrong on the pricing I think these will be. I will even send the good Doctor a apology. First they need to prove us wrong though.

Yes I have been a nice advocate for Leica and i do like them and there folks very much but I am also blunt, honest and when a smell a raw fish I will certainly be the first to tell folks. We need more data here on the S2 but they are thinking there own tethered program and no adapters for other lenses, 100 percent Leica premier dealers selling than they are starting to close in the walls and that makes me nervous. They need to make decisions based on user need and not trying to shut everything else out that is in place in the market that is also very well established in it as well.

 

[ptomsu]

Folks,

I also must say I really enjoy the discussion here with all of you! Much better and open than in the Leica Forum, where you cannot start an open honest discussion without being immediately bashed.

Thank you all for that, I am learning a lot!

As I am concentrating on fine art photography and large prints I am really interested in choosing the right MF digital solution. I am a Leica fan and still do a lot with my M8 and my M glass, but I learned the difference again between MF and 35mm while scanning my old 6x6 and 645 films with a Hasselblad Felxtight X5 - man what a machine :angel:

And of course I also scanned some 35mm film, but what a difference! You can see what the larger format really brings, even if you compare to high resolution film and M lenses! All the Zeiss and Schneider Kreuznach glass I had and see now the result in my scans I only can say WOW!

So one can expect the same or actually better from a digital MF back, but I would say for large prints like 44'' upwards one needs at least 39MP for high quality. So I am looking very carefully into the 39MP Hasselblad promo, but also the 50MP version, which currently is no promo but hopefully will get into that area, once the 60MP back is available and the S2 starts mixing up a bit the 39MP MF market.

No particular interest from my side in the S System, because I see already the limitations I do not want to accept (I am talking about technical limitations only and not organizational ones). But the S2 will hopefully have a positive effect in lowering the MF back prices once more And this is why I like it and hope it makes it soon and successfully to the market

 

[carstenw]

Was nothing said about the resolution of the display?

Leica has said 460.000 pixels, but apparently they may still say pixels but mean dots. Either way, in the worst case it has about half the number of pixels of the latest high-res screens of Nikon, which is still very good. In the best case, it has a lot more, but that is somewhat doubtful.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

It did look pretty darn good and we need to see more 3 inch LCD in the business

Hope someone is listening , I am sure no one said this before either

 

[carstenw]

How bright was it? Would it stand a chance in broad daylight?

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Actually, I am not convinced that they CAN'T make lenses that don't require optical corrections. I am sure the lenses will not be 100% perfect, but if you look at the current R line, most of the wide angles have distortion that is low enough not to be a concern in most situations -- barely over 2% in the 15mm and 19mm. If they can do it (or improve on it) in the R cameras, I don't see why they can't do it in medium format. Not only are they one of the best lens design firms, they also have the corporate will to go for pure optical performance at the expense of ease of manufacturing and lower materials cost. It's not necessarily that there is some magic dust that they use to make their lenses better, it's that they are more willing to make "highly strung" optical designs which demand very tight manufacturing tolerances. They can do this because they have low volumes and a partly hand-assembled production line where every lens is subjected to individual calibration and checks. Some of the other medium format manufacturers do this as well, but I think they have not really bothered to go all the way until recently given the more forgiving negative sizes. They are certainly capable of it (see the Zeiss super-achromats, the newest mamiya d lenses etc), but for the most part the conventional lenses were fine for film and lower MP digital. Leica is coming in all new, building on the no-compromise APO and ASPH M and R lenses, and it makes sense that they will take that no compromise approach to MFD. I just hope that the R&D from the M and R lenses is mostly paid off and that will help make the pricing of the S system lenses more reasonable. I am skeptical though...

Anyway, sorry for the stream of consciousness there. I guess I just think that yes, they will be able to make lenses that do not require digital correction. I think other manufactures probably could too if they decided to adopt a similar manufacturing techniques.

 

[dfarkas]

Was nothing said about the resolution of the display? Guy, you mentioned S-lenses with 72mm filter diameter, which lenses are those, I didn't notice at photokina!?

The LCD resolution is 320x480 (the same as an iPhone).

The 180 APO has a 72mm filter diameter. I think that the 120 Macro also uses 72mm (not 100% positive).

 

[robsteve]

John,
So true, but there is also the "problem" that there are no images to be sharing from this new kit beyond what has already been published. It sure would be great discussing and comparing the output with other things, but nothing there. In that absence, we are left with creative speculation, and a heavy side-order of wishful desire, followed by a dessert of business bitters.

One thing for sure, there is a lot of interest, both positive and skeptical over this new offering, and that is good for folks trying to think about direction, kit choices, etc. The more scenarios tossed out there from a good variety of folks, the less surprises many of us may see later.

LJ

LJ:

I don't think Leica wants to be burnt twice. When the DMR was first available, somebody borrowed one and posted a bunch of pictures on the net that were not that great. A lot of the shots were taken with lenses that weren't even eica, and others were not focused well or had obvious camera shake. It was also early firmware and in the case of the DMR, in the matter of a month or two there was a new firmware version that improved image quality.

It really wasn't until Guy got ahod of a DMR did people see the image quality it was capable of. Then the DMRs started selling like hot cakes.

Robert

 

[LJL]

LJ:

I don't think Leica wants to be burnt twice. When the DMR was first available, somebody borrowed one and posted a bunch of pictures on the net that were not that great. A lot of the shots were taken with lenses that weren't even eica, and others were not focused well or had obvious camera shake. It was also early firmware and in the case of the DMR, in the matter of a month or two there was a new firmware version that improved image quality.

It really wasn't until Guy got ahod of a DMR did people see the image quality it was capable of. Then the DMRs started selling like hot cakes.

Robert

Robert,
Completely understand that part and am not really faulting Leica for protecting things. However, at this stage, one would expect that they could be shooting some things that they control and release as totally preliminary, just as the one fashion shoot they put on line. Why not have a few big prints from that shoot on display at the booth, even if not posted larger on line? Why not do a few shots and crops of things that they can control and release for folks to at least get some idea of what may come and may be better?

If I were Leica, I would not want random shots floating around, as you mentioned, but I sure would think about starting to put out some images that can start to be compared to what Leica is perceiving as the competition. Does not have to be final, and could come with all sort of caveats and embedded labels, but they should be controlling that and tamping down some of the speculations and stuff, if they can. Just my interest and thoughts on this.

LJ

P.S. How hard would it have been to set up one body to shoot tethered to one of their computers so folks in these special presentation groups could get some feel for things beyond the LCD? No files getting into the wild. They control the camera and lens, but let the shooters at least get a look at stuff so that folks like Guy and others can scrutinize things the way we look at them and offer suggestions as well as any praise.

 

[dfarkas]

Great question . The manual focus is very nice and when using AF it gets you there and you can take over. Now the part I am still unsure of because the demo did not lend itself fully to what i wanted to do
Was I wanted to turn off the AF and i did not see anything externally for that like a AF/M switch. Now maybe I missed something with that but I want that kind of control. I'm afraid but not sure it is a menu option and we need a better answer on this. I will see if I can figure that out but the throw was leica smooth and you can have different screens also. Maybe David can answer the manual focus only control or if someone remembers this part. Maybe the new function button could do this part.

With the new AF function button, you'll be able to set it to AF-activate and deactivate focus on the shutter release. So, if you want to manually focus, just manually focus and don't use the AF button. If you want to switch to AF, use the button. Simple as that.

 

[KeithL]

How's a $11K or 12K H3D-II/31 sound?

Further thoughts. If Hasselblad did introduce a $11 or $12K H3D-11/31 I'd buy into the system tomorrow, and that's a promise! I'm also sure that I wouldn't be alone. Are you listening Hasselblad? :thumbs:

Unfortunately, and if the 22MP is anything to go by, they are more likely to simply drop the entry level kit and replace it with the next in line.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think David Grover just may see this. LOL

 

[fotografz]

Further thoughts. If Hasselblad did introduce a $11 or $12K H3D-11/31 I'd buy into the system tomorrow, and that's a promise! I'm also sure that I wouldn't be alone. Are you listening Hasselblad? :thumbs:

Unfortunately, and if the 22MP is anything to go by, they are more likely to simply drop the entry level kit and replace it with the next in line.

Kodak discontinued the 22 meg sensor, not Hasselblad.

 

[KeithL]

Kodak discontinued the 22 meg sensor, not Hasselblad.

Whatever, my offer stands :ROTFL:

 

[jdbfreeheel]

Further thoughts. If Hasselblad did introduce a $11 or $12K H3D-11/31 I'd buy into the system tomorrow, and that's a promise! I'm also sure that I wouldn't be alone. Are you listening Hasselblad? :thumbs:

Unfortunately, and if the 22MP is anything to go by, they are more likely to simply drop the entry level kit and replace it with the next in line.

Hasselblad might take a little while but that doesn't stop Adorama from clearing their shelves:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270353606201

 

[ptomsu]

Wait till the S2 hits the street (or say the shelves of the dealers).

Then you will see real reactions from Hasselblad - I bet!

 

[David Grover / Phase One]

Further thoughts. If Hasselblad did introduce a $11 or $12K H3D-11/31 I'd buy into the system tomorrow, and that's a promise! I'm also sure that I wouldn't be alone. Are you listening Hasselblad? :thumbs:

Unfortunately, and if the 22MP is anything to go by, they are more likely to simply drop the entry level kit and replace it with the next in line.

Somebody say something? :sleep006:

The H3D31 has already had big price drops and anything lower would put Hasselblad back to the old days of making a loss on every camera!

But who knows what the future brings. :angel:

 

[jotloob]

But who knows what the future brings. :angel:

David

Here is my wish for the future . KODAK or DALSA should finally bring a square sensor like 48x48 or 56x56 . I would (try to) be the first who places an order for a HASSELBLAD DIGITAL BACK with such a sensor which can be adapted to the V-SYSTEM .

 

[ptomsu]

I would like to see a square sensor 56 x 56 and a new system - however they call this, but with the standards of the H System. Even if that would be VERY expensive, I would buy it!

Maybe this will be the future. If I look into my old analog 6x6 material I am really missing the square format!

Hasselblad please listen