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Thread: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

  1. #51
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    I have been waiting longingly for a focal plane shutter solution for Arca view cameras. Arca - are you listening? Whazzup with your FPS? A back-mounted shutter would be even better and give me a reason to upgrade my IQ180 - but it's absolutely gotta work with flash so this thing is out. Please confirm, you can't get there from here or is there some magical......?

    Phase, why not make a generic (no, I will not switch to Alpa) FPS slab for the IQ series? Then we could put the back on anything and use it for anything.

  2. #52
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    How are you going to set aperture on lenses without a manual aperture ring?

    It's a bit weird to say this will take "some of the air out of Alpa's sails", when it's pretty obvious the entire point of the Silex (the new "Half" FPS) is to provide a solution for using any lens with this exact upgraded digital back.

    Just because the Silex can control an electronic shutter (on the lens side of the camera) doesn't imply you need to use one. It's why the entire solution is modular. It didn't really make sense at Photokina when they were pushing the potential use for video. But now? It's patently clear they knew all about this back well in advance, and have extended the Alpa 12 system to best utilize it.

    If your genre of photography is not negatively impacted by the rolling shutter, the addition of the Silex and the electronic lens control basically now means you can use (almost) any lens with a "regular" Alpa camera and the IQ3 100.


    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    I don't think its weird! If you feel the need to defend Alpa with their inflated prices that's your business. I never was and never will be a fan of the FPS or any of its offspring. Electronic lenses are a fortune AND one is needed for each lens. You go get em.... I'm not. What Phase has finally provided is a solution and the beginning of the end for electronic shutters in copal 0. As for setting the aperture on my lenses they all have manual aperture controls..... don't understand why you asked...

    Victor

    Edit: I really think this is the beginning of the end of ALL mechanical/electronic shutters. There will be no need for that apparatus.
    Last edited by vjbelle; 4th October 2016 at 08:39.

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by beano_z View Post


    Inception movie effect, anyone?!
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    Limiting tonal resolution to 12 bits they could have 16 times shorter sweep time. You gain some and you loose some.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Feature request?
    Be good to have this as an option, when there is some modest movement involved.

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Inception movie effect, anyone?!
    When I saw Beano's image my first thought was, "Great, we finally got through the whole HDR-grunge craze, now this will take over..."


    Dave

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    There was a breeze here this morning and I took an image of some tree branches moving pretty much at 1/160th. Everything was stopped with no other anomalies. I'm a happy camper......

    Victor
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  7. #57
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    I wanted to see how flash is affected with the ES but could not make my flash fire from the PC connection on my DB. Has anyone been able to actually fire a flash while in ES mode?

    Victor

    Edit: Maybe this function can only be accessed from the XF?
    Last edited by vjbelle; 4th October 2016 at 11:12.

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Hi,

    Electronic shutter gives correct exposure times, so it stops motion very well. But, the virtual slit travels slowly, so you get temporal distortion. You will not see it on small object but it will be obvious on thing that move fast and cover a large part of the image.

    Modern focal plane shutters travel very fast, so these effects are seldom seen. Fully electronic shutters travel over the image slowly, so distortion will be more obvious. The Phase One 100 MP solution is very slow, but it may work with small objects and slow movement. Shooting a racing car at speed it will not work unless you are looking for very abstract images.

    Full electronic shutter will work fine in repro conditions. In that case the shutter will not introduce any vibrations and there will be no mechanical wear. So, for repro in good conditions it will be an excellent option.

    Shooting anything that moves it will be a challenge. Sometimes it will work, but mostly it won't.

    The conclusion is: "Know your equipment and read those fine manuals!"

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    There was a breeze here this morning and I took an image of some tree branches moving pretty much at 1/160th. Everything was stopped with no other anomalies. I'm a happy camper......

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I wanted to see how flash is affected with the ES but could not make my flash fire from the PC connection on my DB. Has anyone been able to actually fire a flash while in ES mode?

    Victor

    Edit: Maybe this function can only be accessed from the XF?
    Flash sync only

    As explained in the electronic shutter article flash sync speed is limited to 1.6" and longer due to the rolling nature of the shutter. At shorter shutter speeds the flash sync is disabled as it would not work as-expected (only part of the scene would see the flash).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    but it will be obvious on thing that move fast and cover a large part of the image.
    This is exactly right and the best wording I've seen so far.

    Things that move fast AND cover a large part of the image = No good for ES
    Things that move slow OR only cover a small part of the image = No problem

    It will definitely be a joint learning experience as a community to see what scenes work perfectly well with ES and which scenes present challenges to an ES. I encourage all the IQ3 100mp owners out there to post examples as they come across them in their work.

    But my gut feeling is that an ES will be great for the vast majority of landscape scenes.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    One place it works for sure is on the longer Schneider lenses i.e. 75-150 and 240LS.

    Even on tripod, I had found it very difficult to get a totally sharp image with the 240LS, unless I added the Really right stuff long lens support bracket, which adds a bit of weight to carry around. Just using Vibration reduction did not seem to matter, and if the camera is vertical, issue is even worse. Always have seen all Mamiya cameras, AFD, AFDII, AFDIII, DF, DF+ and now XF really kick when on vertical due to the mirror.

    This morning, in low light, I was able to capture 1" to 30" with no problem with the 240LS. Still need to trigger from a remote release however. Takes a bit of getting used to, as there is no sound at all.

    Personally, and this is just my 2 cents worth:

    Phase One, could have taken a bit more time and written down in a manual just how the ES is implemented. All other camera companies I am aware of just do better doc. than P1. P1's answer is talk to your dealer. I understand, but some of this could have just as easily been covered in a manual.

    Net, the ES is totally different in the way it works. XF and Tech camera. The menu that has been shown on this site and others only works with a Tech camera. In fact, on the tech camera it's very straight forward as everything is on one menu. No so on the XF as the ES controls are not very clearly spelled out. At least for me.

    It appears that after working with the ES for a while the following conditions apply:

    1. On a tech camera, you can only control the dark frame conditions with the ES enabled? So Phase One tied the ES and dark frame together or so it appears. Again not sure why this was done. There might be times the copal is fine to use, but you still don't want a dark frame again, 1" or longer.
    2. On the XF, there is no way to control the dark frame conditions in single shutter mode. It appears that you can only control the Dark frame on the XF with under time-lapse, and focus stacking. It's very easy to fire the ES in single shutter mode, but I would still prefer not to have a dark frame each time, i.e. in longer exposures than 1". (hope I have this wrong but can't figure out any way to get dark frame control to show up on the XF in single shutter mode)
    3. B and T mode, do not work with the ES, ( I don't understand why)

    4 The ES control screen via camera controls only works shows up with the back attached to a tech camera, again why?

    Still great tech, for sure and furthers the investment.

    Paul C

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Hi Doug,

    Anyway, good to see a lot of good development from Phase One! Not a potential buyer, but I still appreciate a good innovation when I see it!

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    This is exactly right and the best wording I've seen so far.

    Things that move fast AND cover a large part of the image = No good for ES
    Things that move slow OR only cover a small part of the image = No problem

    It will definitely be a joint learning experience as a community to see what scenes work perfectly well with ES and which scenes present challenges to an ES. I encourage all the IQ3 100mp owners out there to post examples as they come across them in their work.

    But my gut feeling is that an ES will be great for the vast majority of landscape scenes.

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    One place it works for sure is on the longer Schneider lenses i.e. 75-150 and 240LS.

    Even on tripod, I had found it very difficult to get a totally sharp image with the 240LS, unless I added the Really right stuff long lens support bracket, which adds a bit of weight to carry around. Just using Vibration reduction did not seem to matter, and if the camera is vertical, issue is even worse. Always have seen all Mamiya cameras, AFD, AFDII, AFDIII, DF, DF+ and now XF really kick when on vertical due to the mirror.
    Paul,
    I agree. Just the other day I was going through the shimming process with this back and was reminded how careful I need to be with the sk150. The slightest tug on the cable release results in significant blur. I'm definitely using ES w/ delay whenever I can.

    Dave

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Dave.... can't begin to tell you how much I agree..... One would think that a threaded shutter release cable would equal non-vibration but that is not the case. With longer lenses, in my case 180mm, even the hint of movement can cause blurring. I experimented with various cables finally settling on the Gepe cloth covered..... I even have another one coming tomorrow. Happily I won't be needing them any more.

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Flash sync only

    As explained in the electronic shutter article flash sync speed is limited to 1.6" and longer due to the rolling nature of the shutter. At shorter shutter speeds the flash sync is disabled as it would not work as-expected (only part of the scene would see the flash).
    Doug.... first of all thanks for all of the information that you have provided. I did carefully read your article regarding the ES but I could not find a reference to the flash being disabled if not at the sync speed.... does make sense though.

    Thanks for all of your valuable information which I'm sure is appreciated by many more than me.

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Doug.... first of all thanks for all of the information that you have provided. I did carefully read your article regarding the ES but I could not find a reference to the flash being disabled if not at the sync speed.... does make sense though.

    Thanks for all of your valuable information which I'm sure is appreciated by many more than me.

    Victor
    Noted! I've updated the article to state that explicitly. Thanks.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Member Richard Osbourne's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Hi Doug,

    I'm curious whether the electronic shutter on a tech cam can use a remote release plugged into the back. If not, how do we avoid knocking the camera when releasing the shutter, especially for longer exposures?

    Many thanks
    Richard


    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    There are a lot of new features in Feature Update 3 but the electronic shutter really stands out both for its massive implications as well as the complicated nature of the subject matter.

    We've published an extensive article here: Phase One Electronic Shutter

    We've been playing with this feature for a while now. If you have any questions leave them here or contact us and we'll be glad to answer.

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Osbourne View Post
    Hi Doug,

    I'm curious whether the electronic shutter on a tech cam can use a remote release plugged into the back. If not, how do we avoid knocking the camera when releasing the shutter, especially for longer exposures?

    Many thanks
    Richard
    You can either:
    - Use the self timer (located right next to the icon for the shutter release). 1" or 2" should do it in most cases, but you can go higher if you feel the need
    - Use Capture Pilot on an iOS device, in which case you don't have to touch the camera to change shutter speeds or to review the image (in case registration between shots is important)
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Same thought I had. As far as am aware there is no remote release that plugs into th back only the XF.

    Would have to trigger a longer exposure from a tethered PC or Capture pilot. Wifi connection with IQ100 is much better than the older IQ backs I worked with.

    Paul C

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    I've been testing the 2 sec delay with the sk150 mounted, just stabbing the button on the back screen. No issues that I can see.

    Dave

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Fire sale...


    Looks like we’ll be needing to hang on to this stuff, may run into an occasional shot that the rolling shutter would be a problem.

  22. #72
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    Looks like we’ll be needing to hang on to this stuff, may run into an occasional shot that the rolling shutter would be a problem.
    You are right; I was being a bit dramatic. But I certainly don't need one for each lens, spares and backups. I could just keep one for the occasional use and use zero latency in a pinch.

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Same thought I had. As far as am aware there is no remote release that plugs into th back only the XF.

    Would have to trigger a longer exposure from a tethered PC or Capture pilot. Wifi connection with IQ100 is much better than the older IQ backs I worked with.

    Paul C
    Hi Paul -

    IQ backs have always been able to be remotely triggered, no?

    Wouldn't the 1/5 meter trigger cable here suffice?

    https://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-S...Products.aspx?

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Thanks Doug,
    I've found Capture Pilot unreliable on the IQ260. It often loses the connection and to reconnect requires restarting both back and iPad. Is it better on this generation of backs?

    The self timer would be fine for anything but critical moment shots - certainly good for architecture and landscape.




    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    You can either:
    - Use the self timer (located right next to the icon for the shutter release). 1" or 2" should do it in most cases, but you can go higher if you feel the need
    - Use Capture Pilot on an iOS device, in which case you don't have to touch the camera to change shutter speeds or to review the image (in case registration between shots is important)

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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Osbourne View Post
    Thanks Doug,
    I've found Capture Pilot unreliable on the IQ260. It often loses the connection and to reconnect requires restarting both back and iPad. Is it better on this generation of backs?

    The self timer would be fine for anything but critical moment shots - certainly good for architecture and landscape.
    I can only talk about my experience with the IQ3 100. I used Capture Pilot and Wifi extensively on my last trip. (Probably around 5000 shots or so) It worked great. I had only 2 disconnects during the whole time. I honestly don't use anything else. Its so great to change all exposure settings on the app without needing to touch the XF or back. The only slight drawback is it takes a little bit more out of the battery. However, I can live with that.
    Christopher Hauser
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  26. #76
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Wifi on IQ100 vs IQ260 is

    Much more stable
    Easier to connect
    Has much less disconnects

    In essence it works as I thought it should on the IQ260 but didn't

    Paul C

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    Member Richard Osbourne's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    It seems that the step up from IQ260 to IQ100 is getting bigger and more worthwhile with every update and every user testimonial. Very impressive work by Phase.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Wifi on IQ100 vs IQ260 is

    Much more stable
    Easier to connect
    Has much less disconnects

    In essence it works as I thought it should on the IQ260 but didn't

    Paul C

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