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Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

gerald.d

Well-known member
<snip>

What I still do NOT understand - how is it then possible (as stated) that the shutter does also all shutter times as the normal FPS from 30 to 1/4000 sec ?<snip>
Because each pixel is exposed for 1/4000th of a second.

But not all pixels are exposed for the same 1/4000th of a second.

Surely?
 

DrakeJ

New member
Because each pixel is exposed for 1/4000th of a second.

But not all pixels are exposed for the same 1/4000th of a second.

Surely?
Yup.

The sensor will read pixel row by pixel row and with a 100MP sensor it will take quite a while. It will render unusable images (unless you like the special effects ;) ) if you have something moving across the frame.

For comparison, the Fuji X-T1 has an electronic shutter which can expose the sensor at 1/32,000s, but it takes 1/60s to read all the lines.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Yup.

The sensor will read pixel row by pixel row and with a 100MP sensor it will take quite a while. It will render unusable images (unless you like the special effects ;) ) if you have something moving across the frame.

For comparison, the Fuji X-T1 has an electronic shutter which can expose the sensor at 1/32,000s, but it takes 1/60s to read all the lines.
This also means: always use a heavy and stable tripod, as the real exposure time is 1,3" or 1,6", whereas deducting from this - I am riddling what the use of a higher ISO for this application shall be - must be very special.
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Another question: Did someone watch the video with the 10x Focusstacking quiet e-shutter exposures ?
These seemed to be significantly shorter than 1,3" each - so there another technique is used ?
No Darktable application for the subsequent shots ?
Seems to be the only explanation for me ?

TIA
Stefan
 

dchew

Well-known member
Stefan,
I was experimenting yesterday with the dark frame in auto. When you cycle power on the back it always takes a dark frame with the first image. After that it depends on the shutter speed relative to other captures since the back has been powered up. So yes, in focus stacking the back would not take additional dark frames after it captures one that is "relevant".

Temperature may be a factor too in the back deciding what a relevant dark frame is; I don't know.

Dave
 
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Stefan Steib

Active member
Stefan,
I was experimenting yesterday with the dark frame in auto. When you cycle power on the back it always takes a dark frame with the first image. After that it depends on the shutter speed relative to other captures since the back has been powered up. So yes, in focus stacking the back would not take additional dark frames after it captures one that is "relevant".

Temperature may be a factor too in the back deciding what a relevant dark frame is, I don't know.

Dave
Thank you Dave - very valuable info !
Super - intelligent implementation by Phase ! Now for a later upgrade they could do 2 Darkframes before first and after last and then average if needed even in according number of steps with growing noise levels at superlong exposures.

Regards
Stefan
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
Another thought:
actually Phase One has come back to the roots here - using a chip as a scanner with a linetime of something like 1/4000sec and total scantime of 1,3/1.6".
This is like a supermini Power Phase FX not with a moving scanline, but with a chip scanning each single line.

I just thought: with this mode, wouldn´t it be much cheaper to use a mechanical moved (by a spnning screw as in the former Phase scanners) 1 Line CMOS Line and
pull the line over the desired scan area in a given time ?

Everything comes back. Ain´t that funny ?
 

beano_z

Active member
Just for illustration purposes, I've taken two shots moving the camera on purpose during the exposure, the exposure was 1/200s.

1) Up-Down movement:



2) Left-Right movement:



Strange blotching effects all over, should be related to the rolling shutter I think.
 

Jamgolf

Member
Strange blotching effects all over, should be related to the rolling shutter I think.
Rolling shutter effect. Thats why in some scenarios ES would not be the right choice and by experiments like this each user will determine when not to use ES.
 

drevil

Well-known member
Staff member
funny to see that other cmaera makers seem to jump on the train as well and add ES to their cameras by FW.
wonder if the same could be done to the old iq250 back as well, which i still consider as an option this year, that would help my decision alot
 

cunim

Well-known member
I have been waiting longingly for a focal plane shutter solution for Arca view cameras. Arca - are you listening? Whazzup with your FPS? A back-mounted shutter would be even better and give me a reason to upgrade my IQ180 - but it's absolutely gotta work with flash so this thing is out. Please confirm, you can't get there from here or is there some magical......?

Phase, why not make a generic (no, I will not switch to Alpa) FPS slab for the IQ series? Then we could put the back on anything and use it for anything.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
How are you going to set aperture on lenses without a manual aperture ring?

It's a bit weird to say this will take "some of the air out of Alpa's sails", when it's pretty obvious the entire point of the Silex (the new "Half" FPS) is to provide a solution for using any lens with this exact upgraded digital back.

Just because the Silex can control an electronic shutter (on the lens side of the camera) doesn't imply you need to use one. It's why the entire solution is modular. It didn't really make sense at Photokina when they were pushing the potential use for video. But now? It's patently clear they knew all about this back well in advance, and have extended the Alpa 12 system to best utilize it.

If your genre of photography is not negatively impacted by the rolling shutter, the addition of the Silex and the electronic lens control basically now means you can use (almost) any lens with a "regular" Alpa camera and the IQ3 100.


Kind regards,


Gerald.
I don't think its weird! If you feel the need to defend Alpa with their inflated prices that's your business. I never was and never will be a fan of the FPS or any of its offspring. Electronic lenses are a fortune AND one is needed for each lens. You go get em.... I'm not. What Phase has finally provided is a solution and the beginning of the end for electronic shutters in copal 0. As for setting the aperture on my lenses they all have manual aperture controls..... don't understand why you asked...

Victor

Edit: I really think this is the beginning of the end of ALL mechanical/electronic shutters. There will be no need for that apparatus.
 
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vjbelle

Well-known member
There was a breeze here this morning and I took an image of some tree branches moving pretty much at 1/160th. Everything was stopped with no other anomalies. I'm a happy camper......

Victor
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I wanted to see how flash is affected with the ES but could not make my flash fire from the PC connection on my DB. Has anyone been able to actually fire a flash while in ES mode?

Victor

Edit: Maybe this function can only be accessed from the XF?
 
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ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

Electronic shutter gives correct exposure times, so it stops motion very well. But, the virtual slit travels slowly, so you get temporal distortion. You will not see it on small object but it will be obvious on thing that move fast and cover a large part of the image.

Modern focal plane shutters travel very fast, so these effects are seldom seen. Fully electronic shutters travel over the image slowly, so distortion will be more obvious. The Phase One 100 MP solution is very slow, but it may work with small objects and slow movement. Shooting a racing car at speed it will not work unless you are looking for very abstract images.

Full electronic shutter will work fine in repro conditions. In that case the shutter will not introduce any vibrations and there will be no mechanical wear. So, for repro in good conditions it will be an excellent option.

Shooting anything that moves it will be a challenge. Sometimes it will work, but mostly it won't.

The conclusion is: "Know your equipment and read those fine manuals!"

Best regards
Erik


There was a breeze here this morning and I took an image of some tree branches moving pretty much at 1/160th. Everything was stopped with no other anomalies. I'm a happy camper......

Victor
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I wanted to see how flash is affected with the ES but could not make my flash fire from the PC connection on my DB. Has anyone been able to actually fire a flash while in ES mode?

Victor

Edit: Maybe this function can only be accessed from the XF?
Flash sync only

As explained in the electronic shutter article flash sync speed is limited to 1.6" and longer due to the rolling nature of the shutter. At shorter shutter speeds the flash sync is disabled as it would not work as-expected (only part of the scene would see the flash).
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
but it will be obvious on thing that move fast and cover a large part of the image.
This is exactly right and the best wording I've seen so far.

Things that move fast AND cover a large part of the image = No good for ES
Things that move slow OR only cover a small part of the image = No problem

It will definitely be a joint learning experience as a community to see what scenes work perfectly well with ES and which scenes present challenges to an ES. I encourage all the IQ3 100mp owners out there to post examples as they come across them in their work.

But my gut feeling is that an ES will be great for the vast majority of landscape scenes.
 
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