Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 77

Thread: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

  1. #1
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    There are a lot of new features in Feature Update 3 but the electronic shutter really stands out both for its massive implications as well as the complicated nature of the subject matter.

    We've published an extensive article here: Phase One Electronic Shutter

    We've been playing with this feature for a while now. If you have any questions leave them here or contact us and we'll be glad to answer.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  2. #2
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Any shutter speed?
    By newest back, do you mean the 100mpx sensor IQ3 only?
    IQ3 100mp only.

    Any speed the XF can normally do (e.g. not faster than 1/4000).

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Is the electronic shutter full 16bit?
    Short answer: Yes, 16 bit.
    Long answer: All three normal file modes are available (IIQ-L 16 Bit, IIQ-L, IIQ-S). If you select IIQ-L 16 bit that is exactly what you get - the quality of the raw file produced is the same as when using the mechanical shutter.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Munich
    Posts
    774
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Is there (will there be) - way to use it on a tech camera ?

    That would probably the biggest step forward in ages.

  4. #4
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Is there (will there be) - way to use it on a tech camera ?

    That would probably the biggest step forward in ages.
    Yes, available today as a free update for all IQ3 100mp users. It's a smart implementation as well; it has lots of nice little touches including the option to embed the aperture.

    Read our full article: Phase One Electronic Shutter
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  5. #5
    Member ejpeiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Chandler, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    22
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    For me, finally being able to make my own decisions on dark frame subtraction is a huge positive!
    E.J. Peiker
    www.EJPhoto.com

  6. #6
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by ejpeiker View Post
    For me, finally being able to make my own decisions on dark frame subtraction is a huge positive!
    Yes! I know this frustrated a lot of users. But I think it's a strong indication of how open Phase One has become in the last couple years to user feedback. Nearly every feature in Feature Update 3 comes from user requests.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Eads, Tennessee
    Posts
    834
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Doug..... cannot connect to the DT server.

    Victor

    Update: Did connect.....

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,065
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Just trying to get my head around the possibilities here...

    On a tech-cam, is it possible run live-view via HDMI output whilst simultaneously triggering the e-shutter? I recognize of course that perhaps the HDMI output will get interrupted for the duration of the back read-out.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Munich
    Posts
    774
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    I can't wait to try it out. Not needing cables for my tech camera sounds amazing. As does beeing able to make panoramic images with the same shutter time!

  10. #10
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Doug..... cannot connect to the DT server.

    Victor

    Update: Did connect.....
    Our traffic is spiking but the website should remain up. If you get any errors just wait a few seconds and refresh as it appears you did.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,065
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Pardon my ignorance, but what is an "RCam"?

  12. #12
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    I can't wait to try it out. Not needing cables for my tech camera sounds amazing. As does beeing able to make panoramic images with the same shutter time!
    Exact multi-second exposures (as opposed to "one mississippi, two mississippi, three mississippi...") will be a very nice fringe benefit!

    Hey, what do people in other countries use to count seconds?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but what is an "RCam"?
    Tech camera we make for art reproduction (Reproduction Camera... RCam).
    http://dtdch.com/dt-rcam-reprographic-camera-system/

    Not of much interest for shooting people or places.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Just trying to get my head around the possibilities here...

    On a tech-cam, is it possible run live-view via HDMI output whilst simultaneously triggering the e-shutter? I recognize of course that perhaps the HDMI output will get interrupted for the duration of the back read-out.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    Should be. I can confirm in just a few minutes (walking over to grab such a setup)...
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  13. #13
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Just trying to get my head around the possibilities here...

    On a tech-cam, is it possible run live-view via HDMI output whilst simultaneously triggering the e-shutter? I recognize of course that perhaps the HDMI output will get interrupted for the duration of the back read-out.
    Yes. HDMI with an IQ3 100mp on an XF works the same with ES as with the mechanical shutter. You can start the feed and initiate a capture which causes the HDMI feed to cut for the duration of the shot and then resumes a moment later.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,065
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Yes. HDMI with an IQ3 100mp on an XF works the same with ES as with the mechanical shutter. You can start the feed and initiate a capture which causes the HDMI feed to cut for the duration of the shot and then resumes a moment later.
    Thanks Doug. That opens up some really interesting workflows.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

  15. #15
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Thanks Doug. That opens up some really interesting workflows.
    I'm curious what you have in mind! Something you can share?
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Eads, Tennessee
    Posts
    834
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    This is incredibly cool!! No more threaded shutter releases or sync cables. I'm assuming that there is a phone app to control it also. I don't own or want an iPhone so if there is an app I hope its available for Android. I am a little ignorant regarding apps since I don't own an XF where there may be more demand. 1/3 shutter speeds...... a dream come true!!

    Victor

  17. #17
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    This is incredibly cool!! No more threaded shutter releases or sync cables. I'm assuming that there is a phone app to control it also. I don't own or want an iPhone so if there is an app I hope its available for Android. I am a little ignorant regarding apps since I don't own an XF where there may be more demand. 1/3 shutter speeds...... a dream come true!!
    Control of the electronic shutter can be accomplished from:
    - The XF (if on an XF)
    - The digital back LCD (always)
    - Capture Pilot on any iOS device* (if wifi is turned on)
    - Capture One (if tethered)

    There is no Android version currently, but you can request one through your dealer. As you can see in the Feature Update Phase One is taking quite seriously the widespread requests of its users.

    *If you do Android for your phone you might consider an iPad Mini or iPod Touch for wireless control/review/editing of your digital back. No cell contract required and longer battery life (since you won't be using it as a cell phone).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    400
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Good looking series of feature updates, look forward to trying them out.

    Very happy to see full Electronic Shutter on the IQ100, thought it might mean I could use my Alpa TC/STC/Max without needing to cock the shutter, and it does, kind of, but not for anything moving with what appears to be a strong rolling shutter problem - not surprising given the sensors size/Mp, but that kind of kills silent street work. With anything involving motion you'll still need a regular shutter - lens or focal plane - for that, correct Doug?

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Southampton
    Posts
    536
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Great to see this tech coming into MF.

    That said, if you make use of the ES, the IQ3-100 effectively become a scanning back, with a fast read out time per line but a lag time to get all the data off the sensor, so tricky to use with moving subjects and/or long exposures.

    Also, coming on the back of the recent announcement of the IQ1-100, another 'IQ3 only' announcement so soon is just plain weird.

    Does P1 actually want anyone to buy the IQ1-100 ?

    Jim
    Last edited by f8orbust; 4th October 2016 at 06:37.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Eads, Tennessee
    Posts
    834
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Thanks Doug for the added information. If Apple didn't play so many games with their phones when first released they would have me as a customer. However, they wait for some time before offering their phones availability without sim. So, I stay with Google. I do have various Apple products including iPads so I will try out your suggestion regarding capture pilot.

    Victor

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Eads, Tennessee
    Posts
    834
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Doug.... how will the rolling shutter affect images in the 10 second to 1 minute range for purposely blurring water and smoothing clouds? I don't have a way of testing this on my own right now otherwise I ask the question.

    Thanks.......

    Victor

  22. #22
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Doug.... how will the rolling shutter affect images in the 10 second to 1 minute range for purposely blurring water and smoothing clouds? I don't have a way of testing this on my own right now otherwise I ask the question.

    Thanks.......

    Victor
    For a long exposure the "roll" takes about a second to start and stop. In between the entire sensor is exposing continuously and will behave as you normally expect.

    So a one minute exposure is around 59 seconds of normal behavior and around 1" of rolling behavior.

    Therefore in some specific situations you may wish to physically block the lens for the first second and last second of the exposure - for instance if there are cars with headlines that you want to streak in a long multi-minute exposure.

    I'm looking forward to our own tests as well as the tests/images of our clients to help us all understand where the limits are and are not, regarding motion and the ES.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  23. #23
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Good looking series of feature updates, look forward to trying them out.

    Very happy to see full Electronic Shutter on the IQ100, thought it might mean I could use my Alpa TC/STC/Max without needing to cock the shutter, and it does, kind of, but not for anything moving with what appears to be a strong rolling shutter problem - not surprising given the sensors size/Mp, but that kind of kills silent street work. With anything involving motion you'll still need a regular shutter - lens or focal plane - for that, correct Doug?
    As noted in the article movement that does not move across much of the frame is fine - each line reads out very quickly. Only movement that crosses a large part of the frame quickly is problematic. Even then it's really only problematic at short shutter speeds where you are trying to freeze a fast moving object.

    On long exposures (e.g. 10") this limitation should be more-or-less moot.

    I'm looking forward to our own tests as well as the tests/images of our clients to help us all understand where the limits are and are not, regarding motion and the ES.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Eads, Tennessee
    Posts
    834
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    I took an image of one of the ornamental grass plants on my property. The tops are very delicate and were moving around an inch or more in the almost still conditions. At 1/100 it appeared just as if the image were taken with my copal shutter. Most of the tops were stopped dead and others looked naturally moving. So far I'm real happy.......

    Victor

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Eads, Tennessee
    Posts
    834
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Doug.... I do wish you could pass along my vote for retaining the aperture even after the back has been turned off. As it is now it resorts back to 'no aperture' which once again has to be set for the current image. From my end there's no reason to reset that setting since almost all of my images are taken at f11..... set it and forget it.

    Victor
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    400
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    If you update the XF with the IQ100 on it, does that upgrade the IQ firmware as well as the camera, or is it 2 upgrade operations needed here? thanks

  27. #27
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    If you update the XF with the IQ100 on it, does that upgrade the IQ firmware as well as the camera, or is it 2 upgrade operations needed here? thanks
    Put the IQ on the XF and do the firmware update and everything is handled in one operation.

    That's new... previously there were separate installers for different back models, and a separate one from all of those for the bodies. The new method is much easier for both Phase One, the dealer, and the user. One file to rule them all.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  28. #28
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Doug.... I do wish you could pass along my vote for retaining the aperture even after the back has been turned off. As it is now it resorts back to 'no aperture' which once again has to be set for the current image. From my end there's no reason to reset that setting since almost all of my images are taken at f11..... set it and forget it.
    I will gladly pass along this feedback. It's a good idea.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  29. #29
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northeast Ohio
    Posts
    790
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Doug,
    Thanks for the info. I updated my back and giggled like a school kid when I took the first image.

    Question: When in ES mode, is the sensor always powered, as in zero latency mode, or does it power up when you go to the "camera" screen where the controls are?

    I'm curious what this does with battery life and/or heat vs. normal mode with a technical camera (I use the alpa sync cord so have not been using zero latency).

    Dave
    davechewphotography.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  30. #30
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Thanks for the info. I updated my back and giggled like a school kid when I took the first image.
    It's weird capturing an image with a 100mp camera without even a whisper of a noise. Right??

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Question: When in ES mode, is the sensor always powered, as in zero latency mode, or does it power up when you go to the "camera" screen where the controls are?
    I'm almost positive it "wakes up" only when you push the shutter release button. Remember it only takes a few milliseconds to wakeup - the only reason it's necessary with a tech camera and a copal shutter is that otherwise the back has *zero* milliseconds notice, which is too few.

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I'm curious what this does with battery life and/or heat vs. normal mode with a technical camera (I use the alpa sync cord so have not been using zero latency).
    The short answer is I do not know for sure. From a sensor point of view the battery life should be similar. However, use wise you will have the screen on far more often (since it's the only means by which you can capture an image or adjust shutter speed).
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  31. #31
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northeast Ohio
    Posts
    790
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Thanks for the info Doug, makes sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    It's weird capturing an image with a 100mp camera without even a whisper of a noise. Right??
    I'm gonna miss that BZZZZTT sound. Can't they program the back to make that sound, just like a BMW pipes engine noise through its speakers?

    Not to mention what's Alpa going to do? I think it was half their brand. They even had it on their website for an annoying several years!

    Dave
    davechewphotography.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  32. #32
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I'm gonna miss that BZZZZTT sound. Can't they program the back to make that sound, just like a BMW pipes engine noise through its speakers?
    My first "sort of pro" camera was an Olympus E10 that used a rather novel splitter prism rather than a mirror and therefore made no sound. They allowed the selection of several "classic" Olympus cameras to be played over the speaker.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  33. #33
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nyköping Sweden
    Posts
    922
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Hi,

    The limitation here is sweep time. Long sweep time -> high tonal resolution. The IQ3-100MP has very long sweep time but retains tonal resolution. Limiting tonal resolution to 12 bits they could have 16 times shorter sweep time. You gain some and you loose some.

    Best regards
    Erik



    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    IQ3 100mp only.

    Any speed the XF can normally do (e.g. not faster than 1/4000).



    Short answer: Yes, 16 bit.
    Long answer: All three normal file modes are available (IIQ-L 16 Bit, IIQ-L, IIQ-S). If you select IIQ-L 16 bit that is exactly what you get - the quality of the raw file produced is the same as when using the mechanical shutter.
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 3rd October 2016 at 22:23.

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Eads, Tennessee
    Posts
    834
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Thanks for the info Doug, makes sense.


    Not to mention what's Alpa going to do? I think it was half their brand. They even had it on their website for an annoying several years!

    Dave
    I started to think about the FPS and the new 'Half' FPS connected to an electronic shutter....($$$$$$$). This, for sure, has taken some of the air out of Alpa's sails. Thank you Phase......
    And..... its only going to get better.

    Victor

  35. #35
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northeast Ohio
    Posts
    790
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I started to think about the FPS and the new 'Half' FPS connected to an electronic shutter....($$$$$$$). This, for sure, has taken some of the air out of Alpa's sails. Thank you Phase......
    And..... its only going to get better.

    Victor
    Fire sale...


    davechewphotography.com
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  36. #36
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,280
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Hi Doug

    Maybe I´m slow, but I need an explanation here:

    Your article says: all exposure times for normal shots can be used as with normal shutter - down to 1/4000sec.
    that would mean one line of the chip gets at least an exposure of 1/4000sec. over a sync time of 1/125sec. - thus the rolling shutter.

    But then the Electronic shutter "with flash" has a synctime of 1.3" (or even longer at high Iso ?) which is much longer than a full rolling shutter readout sync from the FPS or the shorter usable exposure times ?

    ???

    And: Congrats to Phase One about the standardized Dark frame ! That is used in astronomy since (many)years and I asked for this since.....(some)years.
    This is definitely the right way to do it, timelapse and many, many other things.

    So - TIA for an explanation for the flash sync, so I can sort it out technically.

    Regards
    Stefan
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bildschirmfoto 2016-10-03 um 23.20.19.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	17.4 KB 
ID:	121593  
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 3rd October 2016 at 14:43.
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  37. #37
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    2
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Is there (will there be) - way to use it on a tech camera ?

    That would probably the biggest step forward in ages.
    I have used it on my arcs rm3dimand it worked very well. It is great not having to use the cables to the flash
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,065
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I started to think about the FPS and the new 'Half' FPS connected to an electronic shutter....($$$$$$$). This, for sure, has taken some of the air out of Alpa's sails. Thank you Phase......
    And..... its only going to get better.

    Victor
    How are you going to set aperture on lenses without a manual aperture ring?

    It's a bit weird to say this will take "some of the air out of Alpa's sails", when it's pretty obvious the entire point of the Silex (the new "Half" FPS) is to provide a solution for using any lens with this exact upgraded digital back.

    Just because the Silex can control an electronic shutter (on the lens side of the camera) doesn't imply you need to use one. It's why the entire solution is modular. It didn't really make sense at Photokina when they were pushing the potential use for video. But now? It's patently clear they knew all about this back well in advance, and have extended the Alpa 12 system to best utilize it.

    If your genre of photography is not negatively impacted by the rolling shutter, the addition of the Silex and the electronic lens control basically now means you can use (almost) any lens with a "regular" Alpa camera and the IQ3 100.


    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

    From the Alpa Photokina press release. A photo that was a little puzzling at the time, but now makes total sense -

    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  39. #39
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nyköping Sweden
    Posts
    922
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Hi Stefan,

    My take is that sweep time is around 0.65 seconds, that is the back is doing a sweeping reset followed by a sweeping readout making for a virtual slit. But that virtual slit takes around 0.6 seconds to travel over the sensor.

    This is probably a limitation of readout speed of the sensor combined with the capability of the ASICs handling the data coming off the chip.

    Let's compare this to the A7rII, it has a shutter travel time of 1/12s according to measurements by Jim Kasson: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3885998

    We may sort of assume that electronics on the 100 MP Sony sensor are similar to the 42 MP Sony sensor in the A7rII.

    The 100 MP sensor has 8708 rows of pixels while the Sony A7rII has 4374. The 100 MP sensor has 16 bit readout while the 42 MP sensor has 14 bit readout. Assuming ramp type converters and similar sampling frequency we would thus have a sweep time of 1/12 * 8708 / 4374 * 4 = 0.66 seconds. So it would be estimated that it takes the shutter 0.66 seconds to open and 0.66 seconds to close. So flash sync would be available at 0.66 * 2 = 1.32 seconds.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Doug

    Maybe I´m slow, but I need an explanation here:

    Your article says: all exposure times for normal shots can be used as with normal shutter - down to 1/4000sec.
    that would mean one line of the chip gets at least an exposure of 1/4000sec. over a sync time of 1/125sec. - thus the rolling shutter.

    But then the Electronic shutter "with flash" has a synctime of 1.3" (or even longer at high Iso ?) which is much longer than a full rolling shutter readout sync from the FPS or the shorter usable exposure times ?

    ???

    And: Congrats to Phase One about the standardized Dark frame ! That is used in astronomy since (many)years and I asked for this since.....(some)years.
    This is definitely the right way to do it, timelapse and many, many other things.

    So - TIA for an explanation for the flash sync, so I can sort it out technically.

    Regards
    Stefan

  40. #40
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,280
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Hi Eric

    thanks for the explanation of the linetimes using the Back as a scanner with E-Shutter /per line.

    What I still do NOT understand - how is it then possible (as stated) that the shutter does also all shutter times as the normal FPS from 30 to 1/4000 sec ?
    I mean the longer ones - OK. But if this Readout can be done in a 1/4000sec with daylight , does this mean the "rolling shutter" at 1/4000 also uses a sync time of 1,3"
    if higher ISO even longer ? So let me summarize: I can use shutter speeds shorter than 1.3" but if anything moves within 1.3" the image is unusable ?
    So the exposure time is only valuable for sizing the amount of light hitting the sensor, but disfunctional for all moving subjects.
    OK that is a funny implementation but I think I got it now.

    And finally: a "Flash Sync Time" of 1.3" or 1.6" seems pretty useless to me as I do not know any Flashes that have that long T 0.5 not to speak even of T0.1 ?
    Why not call this: permanent lighting only ? The Terminology "Flash Sync" is extremely misleading in this context.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  41. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,065
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    <snip>

    What I still do NOT understand - how is it then possible (as stated) that the shutter does also all shutter times as the normal FPS from 30 to 1/4000 sec ?<snip>
    Because each pixel is exposed for 1/4000th of a second.

    But not all pixels are exposed for the same 1/4000th of a second.

    Surely?

  42. #42
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    41
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Because each pixel is exposed for 1/4000th of a second.

    But not all pixels are exposed for the same 1/4000th of a second.

    Surely?
    Yup.

    The sensor will read pixel row by pixel row and with a 100MP sensor it will take quite a while. It will render unusable images (unless you like the special effects ) if you have something moving across the frame.

    For comparison, the Fuji X-T1 has an electronic shutter which can expose the sensor at 1/32,000s, but it takes 1/60s to read all the lines.

  43. #43
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,280
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    Yup.

    The sensor will read pixel row by pixel row and with a 100MP sensor it will take quite a while. It will render unusable images (unless you like the special effects ) if you have something moving across the frame.

    For comparison, the Fuji X-T1 has an electronic shutter which can expose the sensor at 1/32,000s, but it takes 1/60s to read all the lines.
    This also means: always use a heavy and stable tripod, as the real exposure time is 1,3" or 1,6", whereas deducting from this - I am riddling what the use of a higher ISO for this application shall be - must be very special.
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  44. #44
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,280
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Another question: Did someone watch the video with the 10x Focusstacking quiet e-shutter exposures ?
    These seemed to be significantly shorter than 1,3" each - so there another technique is used ?
    No Darktable application for the subsequent shots ?
    Seems to be the only explanation for me ?

    TIA
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  45. #45
    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northeast Ohio
    Posts
    790
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Stefan,
    I was experimenting yesterday with the dark frame in auto. When you cycle power on the back it always takes a dark frame with the first image. After that it depends on the shutter speed relative to other captures since the back has been powered up. So yes, in focus stacking the back would not take additional dark frames after it captures one that is "relevant".

    Temperature may be a factor too in the back deciding what a relevant dark frame is; I don't know.

    Dave
    Last edited by dchew; 4th October 2016 at 03:35.

  46. #46
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,280
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Stefan,
    I was experimenting yesterday with the dark frame in auto. When you cycle power on the back it always takes a dark frame with the first image. After that it depends on the shutter speed relative to other captures since the back has been powered up. So yes, in focus stacking the back would not take additional dark frames after it captures one that is "relevant".

    Temperature may be a factor too in the back deciding what a relevant dark frame is, I don't know.

    Dave
    Thank you Dave - very valuable info !
    Super - intelligent implementation by Phase ! Now for a later upgrade they could do 2 Darkframes before first and after last and then average if needed even in according number of steps with growing noise levels at superlong exposures.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  47. #47
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Lindenberg im Allgäu
    Posts
    1,280
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    12

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Another thought:
    actually Phase One has come back to the roots here - using a chip as a scanner with a linetime of something like 1/4000sec and total scantime of 1,3/1.6".
    This is like a supermini Power Phase FX not with a moving scanline, but with a chip scanning each single line.

    I just thought: with this mode, wouldn´t it be much cheaper to use a mechanical moved (by a spnning screw as in the former Phase scanners) 1 Line CMOS Line and
    pull the line over the desired scan area in a given time ?

    Everything comes back. Ain´t that funny ?
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

  48. #48
    Member beano_z's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Hong Kong, Hong Kong
    Posts
    52
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Just for illustration purposes, I've taken two shots moving the camera on purpose during the exposure, the exposure was 1/200s.

    1) Up-Down movement:



    2) Left-Right movement:



    Strange blotching effects all over, should be related to the rolling shutter I think.
    Binbin

    f/13 photography
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  49. #49
    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    326
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    Quote Originally Posted by beano_z View Post
    Strange blotching effects all over, should be related to the rolling shutter I think.
    Rolling shutter effect. Thats why in some scenarios ES would not be the right choice and by experiments like this each user will determine when not to use ES.
    IQ3 100 H • Cambo 1200 • Rodenstock 32HR 90HRSW
    UnTroubled Land

  50. #50
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Hamburg/Beijing
    Posts
    179
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: Phase One Electronic Shutter - Full details and Q&A

    funny to see that other cmaera makers seem to jump on the train as well and add ES to their cameras by FW.
    wonder if the same could be done to the old iq250 back as well, which i still consider as an option this year, that would help my decision alot

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •