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Phase Rolling Shutter Effect

f8orbust

Active member
It would be better to call this 'SB' (for scanning back) rather than 'ES' - but obviously that's a harder feature to sell.

This isn't really an electronic shutter in the sense that I imagine it - i.e. one that can read all the data from the back in something like 1/250" or less.

As a scanning back, the IQ3-100 is a bit quicker than Betterlight's 80MP model - though the Betterlight records true RGB data - and a bit slower than Seitz's 6x17 Digital Panoramic Camera, which can pull a 160MP image composed of true RGB data in less than a second.
 

Jamgolf

Member
This "Electronic Shutter" is a great feature to have and will be suitable for many situations. However, anything with movements especially along the X-axis and a global shutter is the right choice. ES is another convenience tool for the photographers and offers something that Copal shutter can not. However, we have to understand when its usage can result in the "rolling shutter effect" and make informed choice accordingly.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
I can't really see the comparison to a Seitz 6 x 17, as the normal exposure is between 2 and 3 seconds in normal light as I understand it. A true scanning back.

The ES on the IQ100 operates between any selected shutter speed, i.e. 1 hour to 1/4000 at any ISO selected on the camera, more similar to the ES on a Fuji X-T1.

No doubt the images from a 40K or so Seitz are going to be excellent, but any movement at all, will be blurred, as you are limited to around 2 seconds for any exposure, where as the ES on the Phase easily stops motion of leaves, grass, as it can be used in a full range of shutter speeds. The issue of rolling shutter is nothing really that new, shows up in many DSLR's that shoot video even the latest from Canon still have the issue.

You can hand hold the XF and use the ES also, but shutter speeds are limited to beyond 1/250 and results vary. But when on tripod I have not had any rolling shutter problems within the range of normal landscape images for me, even yesterday with a pretty strong wing blowing shutter speeds of 1/250 and 1/500 worked fine. But the motion of small objects, such as leaves, grass, plants etc don't seem to have issues, obviously a car or any larger object does. Just like with Fuji's X-T1 or now X-T2.

For the tech camera users, this is a huge move forward, as you are now free of the Copal shutter, and it's totally non-accurate shutter speeds, and now can also gain 1/3 or 1/2 stops which to me is a nice feature, but just being able to get true 1/30, 1/60 1/125 and 1/250 is a big plus. Not to mention you are free from the other side of the equation, an electronic shutter for each tech camera lens, that needs it's own battery, and controller and most are limited to 1/250th as the fastest shutter speed. The the cost and additional weight, and mass of an ES on a tech lens has always made such a solution non-tenable for me.

Paul C
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I also agree with what Paul has said...... this is a very welcome feature for me. It will probably taker the next iteration of sensors for the incorporation of a complete on/off shutter type effect. In the mean time this step is very welcome.....

Victor
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

The electronic shutter is simply an electronic version of the focal plane shutter. Because it is limited by readout speed it travels slowly.

I don't think a global shutter is possible with today's technology, so I don't think we will see that feature on any large sensors any soon.

But, I may be wrong, of course.

Best regards
Erik

I also agree with what Paul has said...... this is a very welcome feature for me. It will probably taker the next iteration of sensors for the incorporation of a complete on/off shutter type effect. In the mean time this step is very welcome.....

Victor
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
For the tech camera users, this is a huge move forward, as you are now free of the Copal shutter, and it's totally non-accurate shutter speeds, and now can also gain 1/3 or 1/2 stops which to me is a nice feature, but just being able to get true 1/30, 1/60 1/125 and 1/250 is a big plus. Not to mention you are free from the other side of the equation, an electronic shutter for each tech camera lens, that needs it's own battery, and controller and most are limited to 1/250th as the fastest shutter speed. The the cost and additional weight, and mass of an ES on a tech lens has always made such a solution non-tenable for me.

Paul C
The thought of incorporating Copal electronic shutters is mind boggling. Talk about spending money and then having to spend more money on a control device that adds extra weight and complication. All of the points covered by Paul's post point out the incredible benefits of this feature.

Victor
 

Frederic

Member
As a tech cam user shooting mostly architecture I welcome the move, as I don't care much about the jelly effect. To me the real drawback is that 1" flash sync, meaning I couldn't use the ES for interiors, unless relying on available or continuous light.

For you guys shooting mostly landscapes this is a great feature.
 

gerald.d

Well-known member
I can't really see the comparison to a Seitz 6 x 17, as the normal exposure is between 2 and 3 seconds in normal light as I understand it. A true scanning back.

The ES on the IQ100 operates between any selected shutter speed, i.e. 1 hour to 1/4000 at any ISO selected on the camera, more similar to the ES on a Fuji X-T1.
<snip>

Paul C
Hi Paul -

It's actually closely analogous. The fundamental difference between the Seitz 6x17 and the IQ3 100 electronic shutter is that the IQ3 100 is exposing different pixels over the duration of the "scan" of the electronic shutter, whereas the D3 scanning back in the Seitz is moving a block of pixels across the frame.

Exposure time at the pixel level on the Seitz can range from 1/2000th of a second up to 10 seconds. It was an impressive piece of kit in its day, but I think it's been left behind somewhat (claimed DR is only 11 stops, for example).

Kind regards,


Gerald.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Obviously, the technology behind this is way over my head, and I can learn more from Erik and others, with the engineering background and always welcome the knowledge.

From my own perspective, as a photographer, I see this feature (ES) as a huge advantage, and not sure why Phase choose to hold it away from Kina.

Simple example, of where I have immediately found 100% improvement. Phase/Schneider 240LS lens, an amazing piece of glass, but heavy and it has not tripod collar. With the XF, I was finding that even with a remote release, shutter speeds of 1/8 to 1/30 could possible contain blur, slight blur, but easily noticed especially on distant subject matter (1 mile to 6 miles out). I was able to get a better result by adding in the RRS large lens stabilization tool. But that device is both heavy, and takes time to setup. Plus, it totally limits me to a horizontal capture and many times I want to go vertical. XF and Vertical just don't mix well as you can visually see the camera move when the mirror goes up, so vibration is there (note I was always in the Vibration reduction mode on the XF). Just touching the back to fire the camera adds movement and I have had mixed results with the 2 sec delay.

Yesterday, I took the same setup out and shot at 1/15 to 1/30 with the ES, you will get a full shutter action on the first frame and after than all you hear is the beep. I did use the remote release. The images were tack sharp, none with the slight blur, none showed any rolling movement problems (subject matter was outdoors, trees, leaves plants). Personally I can't see any delay either between firing the normal shutter and using the ES, as 1/15 and 1/30 and 1/60 all seem to take the same amount of time. I understand that the ES is reading by lines thus slower capturing the data slower than if fired by focal, but I am not seeing any issues for my normal photography and the benefits for long glass are 100% improved.

Overall a very positive step forward, and as Erik states, I am sure the next round will be a global ES, (not sure what Fuji has implemented on their X cameras, if it's a global or not, but it will shoot up to 1/32000, but has immediate problem with indoor lighting creating banding so I am assuming it's recording similar to how Phase One is?)

Paul C
 

stngoldberg

Well-known member
Wow, using the ES seems to be complicated especially with respect to the Dark Frame.
Thank you guys for bringing clarity to this wonderful new tool.
Although I am not a Phase One owner, I find the technology fascinating
Stanley
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Obviously, the technology behind this is way over my head, and I can learn more from Erik and others, with the engineering background and always welcome the knowledge.

From my own perspective, as a photographer, I see this feature (ES) as a huge advantage, and not sure why Phase choose to hold it away from Kina.

Simple example, of where I have immediately found 100% improvement. Phase/Schneider 240LS lens, an amazing piece of glass, but heavy and it has not tripod collar. With the XF, I was finding that even with a remote release, shutter speeds of 1/8 to 1/30 could possible contain blur, slight blur, but easily noticed especially on distant subject matter (1 mile to 6 miles out). I was able to get a better result by adding in the RRS large lens stabilization tool. But that device is both heavy, and takes time to setup. Plus, it totally limits me to a horizontal capture and many times I want to go vertical. XF and Vertical just don't mix well as you can visually see the camera move when the mirror goes up, so vibration is there (note I was always in the Vibration reduction mode on the XF). Just touching the back to fire the camera adds movement and I have had mixed results with the 2 sec delay.

Yesterday, I took the same setup out and shot at 1/15 to 1/30 with the ES, you will get a full shutter action on the first frame and after than all you hear is the beep. I did use the remote release. The images were tack sharp, none with the slight blur, none showed any rolling movement problems (subject matter was outdoors, trees, leaves plants). Personally I can't see any delay either between firing the normal shutter and using the ES, as 1/15 and 1/30 and 1/60 all seem to take the same amount of time. I understand that the ES is reading by lines thus slower capturing the data slower than if fired by focal, but I am not seeing any issues for my normal photography and the benefits for long glass are 100% improved.

Overall a very positive step forward, and as Erik states, I am sure the next round will be a global ES, (not sure what Fuji has implemented on their X cameras, if it's a global or not, but it will shoot up to 1/32000, but has immediate problem with indoor lighting creating banding so I am assuming it's recording similar to how Phase One is?)

Paul C
Moving water? Moving clouds? Moving trees and flowers? Snow?
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Moving water? Moving clouds? Moving trees and flowers? Snow?
As stated by Christopher. No problems so far with any natural subjects.

Clouds, water or leaves. Water is blurred anyway due to the shutter speed I tend to work with.

Paul C
 

hcubell

Well-known member
As stated by Christopher. No problems so far with any natural subjects.

Clouds, water or leaves. Water is blurred anyway due to the shutter speed I tend to work with.

Paul C
Interesting. I have not used the Electronic Shutter on the A7RII, but my understanding was that it was not ready for prime time in the natural world.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
I thought about this some more and I did some more testing today, with about a 5 to 10mph wind.

Tree leaves at 1/250 appear fine, but if I slow down to a 1/40 to 1/25, I will see blur but that is standard motion blur. Clouds so far are not an issue but on a very windy day, where you can clearly see movement that might be a different issue, but again a cloud is so non uniform, not sure it will matter.

If anything it adds to water work for me, as I prefer a slow shutter, say 1 to 5 sec. I have not tried to stop water at a faster shutter speed, curious what that will look like.

The other way to look at it for me is, tree leaves/grass/plants that are stationary are moving but not moving across the shutter, thus their slight motion doesn't seem to cross the boundary and create the rolling shutter issue. If a entire tree limb is moving in high wind, it's much more possible to have an issue.

Larger objects, cars, planes, trains, animals etc. more than likely won't work since they are moving faster and their motion is not from a static base, (like a tree leaf), thus they are going to have the classic rolling shutter effect. And I just realized during this test, that a falling leaf, can create a bit of problem if it happens to cross the sensor close enough up as it's rate of fall is moving it over a much greater portion of the sensor again creating the rolling look.

It's a good problem to have I guess, but you do need to check your shots if you are seeing a lot of wind movement.

Paul C
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

It should work just fine, but limits DR to 12 bits. Readout is something like 10X faster than the 100 MP Phase One back.

There is little reason to use silent shutter on the A7rII as electronic first shutter curtain takes care of the vibration issues anyway.

On the other hand, it is totally silent and has no mechanical wear.

Best regards
Erik



Interesting. I have not used the Electronic Shutter on the A7RII, but my understanding was that it was not ready for prime time in the natural world.
 

CSP

New member
Interesting. I have not used the Electronic Shutter on the A7RII, but my understanding was that it was not ready for prime time in the natural world.
of course you think it was not ready for prime time when it fact it is very usable because it was sony and not your love brand
 

hcubell

Well-known member
of course you think it was not ready for prime time when it fact it is very usable because it was sony and not your love brand
I don't know what a "love brand" is, but you must have a very kinky imagination. It sounds like something you took from a Google translator. However, one thing I can say about me is that I am totally brand agnostic. In contrast to fan boys and haters (and CSP, you KNOW who the haters are), I buy them all and own them all. Phase, Hasselblad, Sony, Zeiss...They all make great camera gear. Some of it works for me. Some of it doesn't. If it doesn't work for me, I don't question why someone else thinks it works for him. You have that covered.
 
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