Will we see an X1D like camera from Phase One?

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

This is pure speculation, but do forum members think that Phase One will release an X1D like camera, or a GFX like camera?

It seems that the X1D sells let hotcakes, but very few have been delivered yet, so it is hard to know if it lives up to expectations. We simply don't know that.

It may be that Phase One waits for the next generation of sensors from Sony that would have on sensor phase detection and perhaps other desirable features like electronic first shutter curtain, or they may opt for offering a full frame 645 mirrorless.

So clearly, there are a lot of interesting options.

Another question is, how does 44x33 mm EVF affect the MFD market? I guess it widens it – but also puts quite some pressure on 50 MP backs.

Best regards
Erik

 

[drevil]

I think a Phase mirror-less will be only a question of time.

Sure Hasselblad and Fuji will sell their X1D and GFX in huge quantities.
And that's my speculation, especially the Fuji even more so because it is the A7 of medium format.

Of course Schneider would need to develop new native lenses for a shorter flange distance.

I also hope that this new competition will push prices lower. Just look at the dilemma of people trying to sell their high end backs, two IQ180 on the sell forum currently, and they just wont sell.

The announcements of Hasselblad and Fuji didnt help to improve their situation.

 

[CSP]

I think a Phase mirror-less will be only a question of time.

Sure Hasselblad and Fuji will sell their X1D and GFX in huge quantities.
And that's my speculation, especially the Fuji even more so because it is the A7 of medium format.

Of course Schneider would need to develop new native lenses for a shorter flange distance.

I also hope that this new competition will push prices lower. Just look at the dilemma of people trying to sell their high end backs, two IQ180 on the sell forum currently, and they just wont sell.

The announcements of Hasselblad and Fuji didnt help to improve their situation.

hasselblad tries very hard to make people believe that it is still all about hardware but the reality is that with evf cameras software is as much as important . i think there is a reason why the hasselblad has only very basic features - it is much more difficult to develop feature rich and perfect working software than wiring japanese components together. so without an experienced partner phase is in the same position they can not really compete with fuji. the ridiculous price strategy of phase one plays also a role and is finally turing against them. even when they are able to come up with such a camera it will hurt their sales and upgrades substantially. the used market of older backs and cameras will collapse in the coming years also putting more pressure on sales.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Supporting EVF probably needs some engineering effort as it probably needs to be better than live view on the back. My guess is that Hasselblad puts some effort in both EVF quality, CDAF (Contrast Detecting Auto Focus) and thermal management on the X1D.

It is probably a very nice camera, and it can have further improvements with firmware updates. But it is essential to have the basic hardware right. Everything is not fixable with software updates. Just as an example, some algorithms can be implemented in hardware.

Best regards
Erik

hasselblad tries very hard to make people believe that it is still all about hardware but the reality is that with evf cameras software is as much as important . i think there is a reason why the hasselblad has only very basic features - it is much more difficult to develop feature rich and perfect working software than wiring japanese components together. so without an experienced partner phase is in the same position they can not really compete with fuji. the ridiculous price strategy of phase one plays also a role and is finally turing against them. even when they are able to come up with such a camera it will hurt their sales and upgrades substantially. the used market of older backs and cameras will collapse in the coming years also putting more pressure on sales.

 

[CSP]

Hi,

Supporting EVF probably needs some engineering effort as it probably needs to be better than live view on the back. My guess is that Hasselblad puts some effort in both EVF quality, CDAF (Contrast Detecting Auto Focus) and thermal management on the X1D.

It is probably a very nice camera, and it can have further improvements with firmware updates. But it is essential to have the basic hardware right. Everything is not fixable with software updates. Just as an example, some algorithms can be implemented in hardware.

Best regards
Erik

we will see. i´m not very optimistic, well lit standard scenes are probably not a big problem for this type of camera but when only slight backlight is involved things can change dramatically and suddenly even a a7r2 with pdaf has problems to find focus. a bright white studio background can be enough sometimes to start hunting with studio light . but the interesting thing is that when i use eye or face detection the sony nails focus with no problem. so beside basic operational function this cameras need more to be really useful.

 

[Chipcarterdc]

Why?

No, really: why?

Hi,

This is pure speculation, but do forum members think that Phase One will release an X1D like camera, or a GFX like camera?

It seems that the X1D sells let hotcakes, but very few have been delivered yet, so it is hard to know if it lives up to expectations. We simply don't know that.

It may be that Phase One waits for the next generation of sensors from Sony that would have on sensor phase detection and perhaps other desirable features like electronic first shutter curtain, or they may opt for offering a full frame 645 mirrorless.

So clearly, there are a lot of interesting options.

Another question is, how does 44x33 mm EVF affect the MFD market? I guess it widens it – but also puts quite some pressure on 50 MP backs.

Best regards
Erik

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The X1D thread here has something like 1367 replies, making it #4 in popularity, indicating significant interest.

Also the X1D signals a new kind of MFD system geared for the 44x33 mm format.

My understanding may be that Phase One's main focus is high end stuff, where the IQ3-100 MP back resides, but customers often have a great brand loyalty, and often choose to upgrade within the brand of their entry. So, happy X1D campers are more bound to upgrade to Hassy H6 than to Phase, or they may just sit and hope that Sony delivers a 70-125 MP sensor in 44x33mm format in a few years.

Another factor is that many MFD owners are getting elder and prefer a lower weight system. On the other hand, many of those MFD owners may be more interested in the Fuji GFX, as it has tiltable viewfinder and articulated LCD. Crunching in the vegetation may not be the greatest fun. Being able to use an iPad as a viewfinder may be a very interesting alternative, of course. The GFX also has a significant lens program compared to the X1D and they have plenty of experience with CDAF systems.

Both X1D and GFX have quite compact lenses, that have been achieved by giving up a bit on large apertures. The short flange distance also allows for more symmetric lens designs, even if that may come with some lens cast issues.

Something to keep in mind that a camera like the X1D is much simpler to make than say the XF. It is essentially a box holding sensor, electronics and LCD in the back and lens on front. CDAF is not very reliable and can be slow, but it is normally very accurate, as it uses actual sensor data for focusing. On a DSLR lens, mirror, secondary mirror, AF-sensor and sensor must be in proper alignment for correct focus. Much more to keep in adjustment.

Mirrorless obviously doesn't need mirror lock up. What mirrorless needs is electronic first shutter curtain. The Hassy has leaf shutter and do fine without EFSC, although they use global reset on the sensor in a smart combination with the leaf shutter to achieve 1/2000s. With the GFX that may be a problem.

It is an interesting development.

Best regards
Erik

Why?

No, really: why?

 

[GrahamWelland]

I'm not sure that Phase One wants to be in the commodity MF market. I work in a similar type of market where there are cheap solutions and there are high value but not inexpensive solutions. If you're in the value/cheap market it's a race to the bottom and nobody really wins. If you are in the value business, customers will pay what they perceive is a realistic price and be happy.

Will the hobbyist who wants the ultimate quality at a commodity price be happy? No. Do they have options that are 95% as good at more modest prices? Definitely.

 

[PeterA]

I'm not sure that Phase One wants to be in the commodity MF market. I work in a similar type of market where there are cheap solutions and there are high value but not inexpensive solutions. If you're in the value/cheap market it's a race to the bottom and nobody really wins. If you are in the value business, customers will pay what they perceive is a realistic price and be happy.

Will the hobbyist who wants the ultimate quality at a commodity price be happy? No. Do they have options that are 95% as good at more modest prices? Definitely.

All depends on the size of the market Graham - my private equity dollar would run a mile from a Phase One situation - my traders woudl short it BIG TIME. The market isn't getting any bigger for the ultra high end market...
Fuji have just smashed the middle ground...Hasselblad hasn't helped the cause either...sure Phase One is well positioned...but positioned for what?

Margins (tick)
Growth ( - )

Thats the problem.

 

[drevil]

I also think that Fuji prepares for full frame, so not just the middle ground.

the mount of the gfx looks pretty big, might be an indicator for a future full frame chip.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Fuji says the GFX is intended to compete with high res 135, but they also say that the lenses are calculated for a 100 MP 44x33 mm sensor.

No, I don't think that full frame 645 is on Fuji's roadmap.

Best regards
Erik

I also think that Fuji prepares for full frame, so not just the middle ground.

the mount of the gfx looks pretty big, might be an indicator for a future full frame chip.

 

[PabloR]

hasselblad has been making bodies for 100 years

P1 is so busy with his new XF at the moment

who knows, but I dont think they will offer a mirrorles soon, for that they work with Alpa

If they want to still being the first brand in the professional MF they should offer video...

XF II with video? not this year.

great for Hasselblad

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Pablo,

Yes, have considered that but Alpa doesn't have AF. But Alpa does have some clever products.

Best regards
Erik

hasselblad has been making bodies for 100 years

who knows, but I dont think they will offer a mirrorles soon, for that they work with Alpa

 

[dchew]

Erik,
The Alpa also does not have anything close to an elegant viewfinder in my opinion. We could mount one of the small HDMI screens, but to me that is awkward for hand held shooting and not much better than holding the camera out looking at the DB live view screen.

I wonder about P1 producing a 54x40-based mirrorless system. It would obviously be heavier than the others but no other companies are there. Maybe not a "Blue Ocean" market space but a "Blue Pond"?

• A few additional small-ish lenses like a 55mm f/4.
• Adapters for the other massive P1/SK lenses.
• ? The option to purchase without a sensor and connect your own existing back. ?
• The body would basically have EVF and on-sensor AF.

Dave

Hi Pablo,

Yes, have considered that but Alpa doesn't have AF. But Alpa does have some clever products.

Best regards
Erik

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

That is an interesting suggestion. It is a bit about integration. Alpa may be doing some interesting stuff.

AF is a bit problematic. Older mirrorless systems use CDAF (Contrast Detecting Auto Focus) while newer systems use PDAF (Phase Detection AF). DSLRs use PDAF, with a semitransparent mirror transmitting light to a secondary mirror to a special AF-sensor. That technology essentially needs a mirror box.

Modern EVF cameras all have on sensor PDAF, but that technology is not available in MFD, yet. CDAF can work reasonably well but needs lenses with very fast moving focusing elements. At this stage the X1D can adapt H-series lenses but without AF.

Sony has a solution with a translucent mirror in the A99 and some other models. In that case viewing is electronic but AF uses a norm PDAF detector. The technology works well, but I think it feels old.

Fuji tried to get PDAF implemented in the present 44x33mm sensor but it was to far in the development pipepeline, I read in some interview.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,
The Alpa also does not have anything close to an elegant viewfinder in my opinion. We could mount one of the small HDMI screens, but to me that is awkward for hand held shooting and not much better than holding the camera out looking at the DB live view screen.

I wonder about P1 producing a 54x40-based mirrorless system. It would obviously be heavier than the others but no other companies are there. Maybe not a "Blue Ocean" market space but a "Blue Pond"?

• A few additional small-ish lenses like a 55mm f/4.
• Adapters for the other massive P1/SK lenses.
• ? The option to purchase without a sensor and connect your own existing back. ?
• The body would basically have EVF and on-sensor AF.

Dave