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H6D 100 v XF 100

tjv

Active member
Is price a feature? What's the price difference between the two when buying back and body only and / or with an 80mm lens?
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Last time I looked there was approx a 10K difference between the Hasselblad and IQ 3100. The gap between the Hasselblad and IQ 100 is less but no ES which IMO is a huge differential.

Not sure if Hasselblad has the ES option on their 100 mp image implementation.

Paul Caldwell
 

malmac

Member
Another difference which was important to us was;

with the H system the back is integrated with the camera body - so if H bring out a H7 camera body then you have to buy a new back and new H7.

where as with the P system, we have an older back with the newer camera body and theoretically if P brings out an IQ3 - 200mp back - we could just buy a new back and use it on our XF camera body.

I did add theoretically. But our IQ180 (old back) - works pretty well with the XF - I suspect we would have been more locked in if we had bought the H4-60 because we would now not be able to justify trading up to a newer H6 camera with better touch screen etc - because we would not be able to just buy the H6 camera to use with our older back. I am not sure if there will be a H6X - that would change things I suspect.



Mal
 

ejpeiker

Member
Long thread with tons of great info, not sure if this one is in here or not but it could be an important consideration depending on your circumstance: You can basically get an XF + IQ-x100mp tomorrow, who knows when an H6D-100 would deliver.
 

Nick-T

New member
Long thread with tons of great info, not sure if this one is in here or not but it could be an important consideration depending on your circumstance: You can basically get an XF + IQ-x100mp tomorrow, who knows when an H6D-100 would deliver.
H6D100s are delivering.
 

ejpeiker

Member
There's a difference between delivering to backorders compared to calling a dealer today and getting one tomorrow. ;)
 

Chipcarterdc

New member
There is no "body only" price for the H6D-100c. It's a package (body + back, without a lens), the list price of which is $33,000 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ad_h_3013742_h6d_100c_medium_format_dslr.html)

The list price of the comparable Phase One offering is $44,000 (body + back, without a lens): https://digitaltransitions.com/product/phase-one-iq3-100mp-system/

That's a difference of $11,000, not $17,000. To find the actual list price difference in reality, you'd want to factor in the price of a comparable starter lens for each, since neither does you any good without a lens. This is putting aside possible dealer discounting: just speaking of list prices.

I think the difference is $17000 for body only.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
There is no "body only" price for the H6D-100c. It's a package (body + back, without a lens), the list price of which is $33,000 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ad_h_3013742_h6d_100c_medium_format_dslr.html)

The list price of the comparable Phase One offering is $44,000 (body + back, without a lens): https://digitaltransitions.com/product/phase-one-iq3-100mp-system/

That's a difference of $11,000, not $17,000. To find the actual list price difference in reality, you'd want to factor in the price of a comparable starter lens for each, since neither does you any good without a lens. This is putting aside possible dealer discounting: just speaking of list prices.
FYI pricing is a little more complicated than that. The $44k price above is for the IQ3 100 back only, doesn't include the XF body. You're looking at $49k for the back, body, and 80mm lens, whereas the H6D-100c is $33k for the back AND body (a new Hassy 80mm lens will run an additional $3.1k). Phase also has an IQ1 100 back which has the same chip as the IQ3 100 and H6D-100c (but loses a lot of the bells and whistles) at $33k, or $38k for the back/body/80mm lens.

The difference between an H6D-100c (back+body) and IQ3 100 back is $11k, the difference between an H6D-100c plus 80mm lens and the IQ3 100mp back/body/80mm is ~$13k. An H6D-100c plus 80mm lens would be in a similar ballpark as an IQ1 100/XF/80mm. Hasselblads you can also order from BH and not pay sales tax, which can save quite a bit of money in US. Of course you won't have the level of support as you would with a Team Phase dealer (in the US at least).

That's of course the advertised prices, Phase dealers can work with you more than Hasselblad dealers on pricing most likely.

Another feature I like about Hasselblads no one has mentioned is Hasselblads lack a dark frame for long exposure shots, whereas for Phase this can only be disabled on a tech cam (AFAIK). I haven't heard or tested this on an H6D-100c but I think it should be similar. Given the size of the investment, the OP should demo both and figured out which works best for their line of work.

Off topic, but I'm a registered patent agent in the US. You're technically right about patenting ideas, but in practice it's much more grey, and there's a lot of misinformation out there. Generally, abstract ideas/concepts are patent ineligible, however, concepts can be patented, but usually they have to be linked to hardware functionality or involve a significant data transformation that can't be done with a human by pen and paper. I did some searching today for the "True Focus Patent" and here's what I found for those that are interested......

Hasselblad's True Focus patent application (from what I could find it's International Application Number PCT/EP2010/059056 filed on 6/25/2010 link: https://worldwide.espacenet.com/pub...C=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20101229&DB=&locale=en_EP), in the claims, was implemented on and included non-generic hardware, making it patentable (at least in the US). As far as the patent goes, I only found the published application (which is NOT a patent), and the prosecution history ended in 2011. The European Patent Office says that the patent application was "withdrawn by the Applicant" (https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP10726974), and only Hasselblad could tell us why. Unless the tech is buried in another patent, I didn't see a patent assigned to Hasselblad in the US for the tech, but I didn't search very hard. From what I saw by (briefly) searching in the US and Europe, I don't find it likely that Hasselblad has a patent for True Focus, only a published patent application that was withdrawn and that didn't mature into a patent. I could be wrong and I did not search very extensively, and Hasselblad's patents may have additional assignment entities other than "Hasselblad A/S". The international search report for the patent cited 4-5 patents against it, meaning there's other patents out there to similar technology. I can't find any info on the applications to which the international application claimed priority that preceeded this application for some reason (one in the US in 2009 and one in Europe in 2009), which is a little odd. All of this could help explain why they marketed True Focus as "patent pending" with the H4D and don't highlight the tech more in their marketing literature.

Anyway, only Phase can tell us why they haven't implemented a True Focus-like feature, but it might not be a Hasselblad patent...
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
FYI all the pricing that has been listed here seems to neglect that the Phase One IQ3 100mp kit comes with your choice of prime lens. You can, technically, choose the Schneider 80mm LS Blue Ring but we'd discourage it. Far more valuable to use that choice on one of the primes like the Schneider 120mm LS Blue Ring Macro or new Schneider 150mm f/2.8 LS Blue Ring or Schneider 45mm LS Blue Ring.

Anyone remotely considering either back would be strongly served by talking to a good dealer for each. There are promos, kits, trade-ins, financing options, demo units, refurbished options, upgrades, etc.
 

bab

Active member
Being a lawyer (albeit not a patent lawyer), I very much doubt the TrueFocus functionality is patented or even patentable. You can't patent an idea. If you could, then no phone other than the iPhone could ever have a touch screen; no one but Minolta could ever make an autofocus lens; no one but Ford could ever make a consumer automobile; etc. (By "ever," of course, I mean "during the duration of the patent," which is a long time indeed). The reason the law does not allow you to patent an idea, I gather, is that otherwise it would stifle competition and the technology would never improve (or improve a lot more slowly), at least during the term of the patent.

Thus, while Hassy's *specific implementation of TrueFocus* is almost certainly patented, the *concept* of "set the focus point and have camera adjust the lens focus as needed to maintain that focus point notwithstanding subsequent vertical or horizontal movement" is an optics and engineering concept that can presumably be implemented in ways sufficiently different from Hassy's specific implementation as to not raise patent infringement concerns.

I could easily be proven wrong by an actual patent lawyer: I really haven't thought about patent law since I was in law school. (Or, even better, by someone from Phase explaining the specific reasons they haven't implemented a TrueFocus functionality, whether there is something that would prevent them doing so, and whether that something is Hassy's patent.)
Please advise Ove Bengtson because I have asked for auto bracketing and was told there is a patent restriction...which I found, https://www.google.com.cy/patents/U...ved=0ahUKEwijseLpsd7QAhXphFQKHShhDckQ6AEIGDAA

So if you know of a way around it we could have auto bracketing on the new H6 cameras.

Ove Said
"We couldn’t have the camera perform the bracketing sequence automatically because of a patent."
 

Chipcarterdc

New member
My bad: was looking at Phase prices on my phone and didn't notice I'd selected the "back only" option (it's less than clear when viewed on phone).

Interesting patent perspective: thanks.


FYI pricing is a little more complicated than that. The $44k price above is for the IQ3 100 back only, doesn't include the XF body. You're looking at $49k for the back, body, and 80mm lens, whereas the H6D-100c is $33k for the back AND body (a new Hassy 80mm lens will run an additional $3.1k). Phase also has an IQ1 100 back which has the same chip as the IQ3 100 and H6D-100c (but loses a lot of the bells and whistles) at $33k, or $38k for the back/body/80mm lens.

The difference between an H6D-100c (back+body) and IQ3 100 back is $11k, the difference between an H6D-100c plus 80mm lens and the IQ3 100mp back/body/80mm is ~$13k. An H6D-100c plus 80mm lens would be in a similar ballpark as an IQ1 100/XF/80mm. Hasselblads you can also order from BH and not pay sales tax, which can save quite a bit of money in US. Of course you won't have the level of support as you would with a Team Phase dealer (in the US at least).

That's of course the advertised prices, Phase dealers can work with you more than Hasselblad dealers on pricing most likely.

Another feature I like about Hasselblads no one has mentioned is Hasselblads lack a dark frame for long exposure shots, whereas for Phase this can only be disabled on a tech cam (AFAIK). I haven't heard or tested this on an H6D-100c but I think it should be similar. Given the size of the investment, the OP should demo both and figured out which works best for their line of work.

Off topic, but I'm a registered patent agent in the US. You're technically right about patenting ideas, but in practice it's much more grey, and there's a lot of misinformation out there. Generally, abstract ideas/concepts are patent ineligible, however, concepts can be patented, but usually they have to be linked to hardware functionality or involve a significant data transformation that can't be done with a human by pen and paper. I did some searching today for the "True Focus Patent" and here's what I found for those that are interested......

Hasselblad's True Focus patent application (from what I could find it's International Application Number PCT/EP2010/059056 filed on 6/25/2010 link: https://worldwide.espacenet.com/pub...C=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20101229&DB=&locale=en_EP), in the claims, was implemented on and included non-generic hardware, making it patentable (at least in the US). As far as the patent goes, I only found the published application (which is NOT a patent), and the prosecution history ended in 2011. The European Patent Office says that the patent application was "withdrawn by the Applicant" (https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP10726974), and only Hasselblad could tell us why. Unless the tech is buried in another patent, I didn't see a patent assigned to Hasselblad in the US for the tech, but I didn't search very hard. From what I saw by (briefly) searching in the US and Europe, I don't find it likely that Hasselblad has a patent for True Focus, only a published patent application that was withdrawn and that didn't mature into a patent. I could be wrong and I did not search very extensively, and Hasselblad's patents may have additional assignment entities other than "Hasselblad A/S". The international search report for the patent cited 4-5 patents against it, meaning there's other patents out there to similar technology. I can't find any info on the applications to which the international application claimed priority that preceeded this application for some reason (one in the US in 2009 and one in Europe in 2009), which is a little odd. All of this could help explain why they marketed True Focus as "patent pending" with the H4D and don't highlight the tech more in their marketing literature.

Anyway, only Phase can tell us why they haven't implemented a True Focus-like feature, but it might not be a Hasselblad patent...
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
Please advise Ove Bengtson because I have asked for auto bracketing and was told there is a patent restriction...which I found, https://www.google.com.cy/patents/U...ved=0ahUKEwijseLpsd7QAhXphFQKHShhDckQ6AEIGDAA

So if you know of a way around it we could have auto bracketing on the new H6 cameras.

Ove Said
"We couldn’t have the camera perform the bracketing sequence automatically because of a patent."
Almost no point in designing around that patent, it issued in 1990, and at the time patent term was 17 years from issue, so it probably expires soon, depending on if there was any patent term adjustment at the time of issue
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Almost no point in designing around that patent, it issued in 1990, and at the time patent term was 17 years from issue, so it probably expires soon, depending on if there was any patent term adjustment at the time of issue
I assumed that all DSLRs have "auto-bracketing". I know the Sony A7R cameras can be set to auto-bracket, either continuous or with each exposure being triggered separately.
 

bab

Active member
That's what I thought it's not a big deal. But alas the boss said no way Jose.
My reason is simple I want to make bracketing easy and fast as fast as possible to minimize movements and changes in light.

Also about the subject of the post both systems have their merits, it's up to the buyer which one is better for his or hers needs. But to me which system is better than the other is pointless they both can do the job!

Pass it along Intergrated Step Focusing is needed for the H6D!
 

DrakeJ

New member
[...]
Anyway, only Phase can tell us why they haven't implemented a True Focus-like feature, but it might not be a Hasselblad patent...
Interesting stuff, tcdeveau! Thanks for doing some investigations. Clearly everyone who owns an XF wants this kind of technology. Phase One, it's time! And please, use that 6-axis gyro and make sure you also take into account the distance from the subject so we can focus on a point and not worry how we move the camera ;)
 

jmosier01

Member
Unless this is a new feature, You can use pretty much any back from the H3D series up on the newer H bodies. For instance my H3D-22 back and H3DII-39 back work on an H5D body.

And the idea of a matched body and back makes sense on paper, however I've had 6 different H3DII and H3D bodies that I've swapped back and forth. The only bodies that dedicated backs will not work on are the H4X/H5X.

Just wanted to put that info out there.

Cheers,
J

Another difference which was important to us was;

with the H system the back is integrated with the camera body - so if H bring out a H7 camera body then you have to buy a new back and new H7.

where as with the P system, we have an older back with the newer camera body and theoretically if P brings out an IQ3 - 200mp back - we could just buy a new back and use it on our XF camera body.

I did add theoretically. But our IQ180 (old back) - works pretty well with the XF - I suspect we would have been more locked in if we had bought the H4-60 because we would now not be able to justify trading up to a newer H6 camera with better touch screen etc - because we would not be able to just buy the H6 camera to use with our older back. I am not sure if there will be a H6X - that would change things I suspect.



Mal
 

bernardl

Active member
For what it is worth, I have in the end selected the H6D-100c over the IQ3-100.

The main reasons being:
- much lower real world price for the system here in Japan. Especially taking into account discounts and mint second hand lenses. P1 ends up being almost double,
- True focus. Coming from a D810/D5 I expect focus accuracy anywhere in the field,
- Shooting experience of the body. Much better match to my hand, lighter and less obtrusive, better touch UI also IMHO. I just don't see myself shooting an XF outside the studio,
- Better compromise between lens price/weight/performance. The recent Schneider are probably a bit better optically, but their price and weight is getting a bit ridiculous. I used to shoot with an H1 and loved the look of the lenses.

Had they been the same price I would probably have gone P1 since I like C1 Pro and know it well, but since I can buy a pretty nice car on top of my Hassy for the price of the P1 system I'll make do with Phocus 3 that isn't as bad as some make it to be. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
 
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