Looking like no C1 support for the Fuji GFX

[Paul2660]

With the official pricing announcement coming on the 19th of January, I found this to be interesting. I had hoped that Phase One might consider support, but not looking good.

Not that it's official yet, but on Fuji Rumors a new post reflects a direct question to Phase One for possible support for the Fuji GFX, and the Phase One response is the usual, "no support will be offered as it's not a policy to support our competitors".

Most unfortunate and to me a bit of an oversight, but I guess time will tell.

Looking forward to the Adobe solution since the GFX has no x-trans, Adobe should be able to get a good solution, but the weak link will be tethering for sure.

Phase One Says Capture One Won't Support the Fujifilm GFX: "It's a Direct Competitor of Our Core Business." - Fuji Rumors

Paul Caldwell

 

[dougpeterson]

Paul, you don't need a rumor site to tell you that.

None of the camera makers support directly competitive products in their software.

Fuji doesn't. Canon doesn't. Nikon doesn't. Hassy doesn't. Leica doesnt. Pentax doesnt. Phase One doesn't.

Phase One policy has been the same for more than a decade. They support a wide variety of small-format cameras but only their own larger-than-35 solutions.

GFX files, like Pentax 645Z files, and X1D files will be unsupported in either their native formats or if you rewrap them as dng.

 

[Paul2660]

Doug,

As I stated earlier, most short sighted by P1. :banghead:

Time will tell on how well both of these cameras will be adopted, but based on the current focus, I fully expect to the both the Hasselblad and Fuji offerings dominate sales in 2017. The two cameras meet the needs of the changing market. I am sure P1 has a mirrorless solution coming, but they have much larger issue with lenses as none of their current high dollar glass will work on any mirrorless system without an adapter, and even if they did, they so massive they would out balance and defeat the most important point of mirrorless, light weight. Not to mention, P1 will most likely price their solution considerably higher than the other offerings.

I use C1 for most of my files (it's woefully out of date on issues like HDR and pano work) but I still continue. The sales of these two cameras will be considerable and I had hoped that P1 would re-consider this.

The rumor site, only provided the formal response from P1, I always like to show my source.

Paul Caldwell

 

[drevil]

in one of the comercials it pretty much looked like the photographer was indeed using c1.

its the same sensor as in many backs and cameras, maybe "support" means just that, i works but no help support will be given?

 

[dougpeterson]

Personally I'd tend to agree with you that they should support them. But they will not.

 

[f8orbust]

None of the camera makers support directly competitive products in their software.

Fuji doesn't. Canon doesn't. Nikon doesn't. Hassy doesn't. Leica doesnt. Pentax doesnt. Phase One doesn't.

Actually, Phase One does:

Is my camera supported? Chances are that it is! Capture One now supports more than 400 digital camera models.

Well, all those 400 digital cameras are competitors - after all, we all know people who have dumped MF to go to Canon / Nikon / Sony etc. and yet ... they can all carry on merrily using C1. I'd guess P1 has lost more users to smaller formats than they ever have to HB, Leica etc. so, it seems like some competitors are more unequal than others.

P1s policy smacks to me a bit of wanting to have their cake and eat it. Personally, I'd abandon it, I don't think hordes of GFX buyers are going to drop an extra $25k on an IQ system just because they can't run their files through C1.

Jim

 

[hcubell]

This is "news" in the same way as an announcement that the sun will rise tomorrow.
From a business standpoint, I don't blame Phase for reserving C1 for the use of its medium format digital systems. Phase is surely working on its own mirrorless medium format offering, and wants C1 to be a major "feature" of the new camera. I just hope it won't require a wheelbarrow to move about with it. Svelte doesn't seem to be part of Phase's DNA.
My only criticism of Phase One on the C1 thing is that it tried to take the moral high ground about "open systems" and excoriated Hasselblad when Hasselblad closed the H series cameras from working with Phase backs. I really dislike hypocrisy.

 

[MGrayson]

It's funny. Phase One dealers have told me to my face that the Leica S is no competition for them. :ROTFL:

Alas, I like the S even more than I liked C1.

--Matt

 

[algrove]

If the GFX had a tiff option for file format would that get one around the issue?

 

[kdphotography]

While I understand Phase One's somewhat generic response to not "support competitors" as perhaps a business decision, in practice it is not the most compelling, imho.

Phase One is really in two separate fields: medium format camera systems and raw image processing software. You can look at them as combined entities, but I don't. Basically every camera manufacturer includes some sort of processing software for its cameras. But for the most part they are either weak, very basic and/or lack some real functionality or capabilities desired by users (e.g., tethering).

No one runs to use any of these "lesser" processing solutions offered by manufacturers. Phase One touts Capture One Pro as a leading processing software solution, and for good reason. It does solicit its software as a better raw processing solution for other camera systems. The other major alternatives being offered through Lightroom and Adobe.

Sometimes when I hear people exclaim that MFDB users need to adopt some alien processing workflow, I laugh. I use essentially the same workflow for all my camera systems, and enjoy all the tools of the same processor with C1Pro. [/I]And that's the real joy in workflow and and ease in using (and enjoying) different cameras and systems. Using the same C1Pro software/workflow makes it easy.

Certainly the raw processing partnership with Sony couldn't have been a bad thing. Taking another bite (and profit) from competitors in the medium format realm might not be a bad thing.

Ken

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

No, that would not be the case.

Almost any raw format is a variant of TIFF PE. Some cameras allow for DNG, but Capture One will ignore DNGs from competitors.

The simple fact is, if you want to use Capture One use Team Phase One products or resort to non MFD devices.

Iw you want to use competing MFD you need to used another workflow solution, which probably means Lightroom.

There are other raw convertors, like RawTherapee or AccuRaw, but those are not really workflow solutions.

Best regards
Erik

If the GFX had a tiff option for file format would that get one around the issue?

 

[dougpeterson]

Actually, Phase One does:

Is my camera supported? Chances are that it is! Capture One now supports more than 400 digital camera models.

Well, all those 400 digital cameras are competitors - after all, we all know people who have dumped MF to go to Canon / Nikon / Sony etc. and yet ... they can all carry on merrily using C1. I'd guess P1 has lost more users to smaller formats than they ever have to HB, Leica etc. so, it seems like some competitors are more unequal than others.

Phase One working definition of "directly competitive" in this context is larger-than-35mm sensor. I don't necessarily agree that is sensible. But as a result they support myriad small-format cameras (35mm and smaller) and only their own medium format sensors.

Don't kill the messenger; it's not my choice to make, and generally I agree with the argument that all camera makers should make their raw software open to all cameras including direct competitors. But that's not what camera makers, Phase One included, have decided to do.

 

[Paul2660]

If the GFX had a tiff option for file format would that get one around the issue?

I believe tiff output would mean processing in camera to a 16 bit tiff I would assume. That would be a huge file, and would lose all the options of a raw file as I see it.

The original Canon 1ds MKI had a tif output as I recall, which was a raw file, and still needed processing by ACR or C1.

Personally, with the huge DR advantages that the 50MP chip has, I would want to stay in raw as much as I could.

Paul Caldwell

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Paul,

A 16 bit till file in linear coding can hold all the information in a 16 bit raw file.

But, a non raw tiff file is demosaiced. So the most crucial part of raw image handling is done and the original information is discarded.

DNG is a much better route than tiff in that sense. In DNG raw pixel data is preserved. That is not saying all metadata are preserved.

Or, it could be argued that DNG preserves essential metadata. What is regarded essential may depend on implementer.

I hope that the X1D and the GFX will be a great success. But, I am not sure that the present generation of Sony MFD sensors are that great for mirrorless.

• No support phase detectings AF
• Mo support for Electronic First Shutter Curtain

Lack of these two features caused me skipping over the first generation of Sony A7. It is possible to build very responsive contrast sensing AF but it needs very fast focusing mechanisms like voice coil and very fast readout.

Best regards
Erik

I believe tiff output would mean processing in camera to a 16 bit tiff I would assume. That would be a huge file, and would lose all the options of a raw file as I see it.

The original Canon 1ds MKI had a tif output as I recall, which was a raw file, and still needed processing by ACR or C1.

Personally, with the huge DR advantages that the 50MP chip has, I would want to stay in raw as much as I could.

Paul Caldwell

 

[Paul2660]

Hi Eric

Thanks for the clarification.

There is a lot of talk that Fuji will have an ES option with the GFX. I guess all of this will be known for sure on the 19th of Jan

Paul Caldwell

 

[drevil]

ES is simply a question of firmware, even magic lantern activated it on the 5D series.
And lets not forget the IQ3 100, firmware....BOOM ...ES

I think its a shame that P1 doesn't release this feature to the iq1/250 series as well

Fuji seems to be the king of adding new features to its cameras via firmware even long after the release of the cameras.

 

[dougpeterson]

ES is simply a question of firmware, even magic lantern activated it on the 5D series.
And lets not forget the IQ3 100, firmware....BOOM ...ES

This is not correct.

Electronic Shutter can be added by firmware ONLY if the underlying sensor architecture supports it. It's also not a trivial task to implement, especially if you want to produce the same quality (same dynamic range, same color, same dark frame reduction quality, same bit depth) as with a traditional shutter. "BOOM" as you put it was the result of a lot of hard R+D work; it's not like they changed a preference file entry from "ES = Disabled" to "ES = Enabled".

Everything I know says the 50mp sensor does not provide the underlying architectural support required to implement a sensor based electronic shutter. So I strongly suspect the Fuji will not have it (nor the X1D, nor the IQ150/250, nor the Pentax 645). My understanding is the 100mp sensor is the only current medium format sensor that provides the needed technology for sensor-based electronic shutter. However, only time will tell for sure as it's very hard to prove a negative .

Fuji seems to be the king of adding new features to its cameras via firmware even long after the release of the cameras.

Fuji has done an adequete job of adding meaningful features via firmware. But honestly even with my strong bias, it's hard not to give "king of adding new features via firmware" to Phase One. Here's a partial list from the first, second, and third XF feature updates and the IQ3 features that was provided to all IQ2 owners at no cost.

Flash Related
- Profoto Air Manual Control
- Profoto AirTTL
- Flash Analysis
- Rear Curtain Sync (with custom trim)
Shutter/Capture Related
- Electronic Flash (IQ3 100mp only)
- Control of Darkframe Behavior
- Bulb and Time mode
Customization Related
- Save/Load Custom Setups to CF Card
- Icon Control (Show/Hide/Swap)
- Assign Hyperfocal to a hard button

Sequence Tools
- Focus Stack Tool
- Time-lapse Tool
- HDR Sequence Tool
- Self Timer Delay

Autofocus
- improvement to low light performance
- improvement to handheld performance

New OneTouch UI

From the first feature update
- Focus confirmation with the Waist Level Finder
- Seismographic monitoring in Low Vibration mode
- BullsEye Level tool on the XF OneTouch UI
- Histogram on XF OneTouch UI
- New setup and calibration of the Hyperfocal point
- XF Live View focus step from Capture One
- IQ Digital Back input of copyright information for RAW file metadata
- General stability and bug fixing

Exposure Mapping Tool
Exposure Clipping Tool
Exposure Calculator Tool

 

[Paul2660]

It has been mentioned many times by Fuji mainly in Japanese press statements that they are looking at a ES or Electronic First Curtain or both for the GFX. The full specs should be announced on the 19th of January.

If Fuji doesn't find a way to get to at least EFC on this camera, then IMO Hasselblad will have a considerable leg up due to shutter shock concerns. It's already been proven that the smaller mirrorless bodies have issues controlling this, i.e. A7R issues.

To their full credit, Phase One has the full ES on the IQ100, I don't believe Hasselblad does, (at least I have not seen it in specs). I would personally say that the ability to use an ES on a large chip/MP camera such as the IQ100 is a huge advantage, either with LS lenses or focal shutter, and the implementation of ES by Phase One was probably the single most important feature update passed on since the full 1 hour support for the P45+.

As for Fuji, it has to be remember, that the X-T1 with 16MP uses a pretty common Sony sensor, just with the x-trans filter array. It took Fuji about 1 year later after announcement of the X-T1, but they did bring a full ES shutter solution to the X-T1. They had it at announce for the X-Pro2 and X-T2. However in my use of these cameras, I rarely if ever use it since the camera design is much less shock prone at any and all shutter speeds. And Fuji has OIS on most of their lenses. Fuji however only has OIS on 1 of 6 of the new lenses for the GFX, so if they don't figure out a way to implement ES or at least EFC, I can see some problems possible for them with the current GFX. Only time will tell, but on the 19th the full specs should be available.

No other camera I know of with the APS-C 16mp Sony or now 24MP Sony chips have the full ES offering beside Fuji. If there are others, I will stand corrected.

The Nikon D810 and Pentax K1, both have EFC, but it's implemented in different ways, but on both cameras is limited to EFC, no ES. There were rumors Pentax would come out with full ES, but that turned out to be more an issue of what Pentax called the EFC.

That fact that Magic Lantern came out with a full ES for the 5D, shocked me, as I did not know that, but it once again shows just how much Canon has left on the table. This still amazes me. No Canon I am aware of has a full ES in APS-C or full 35mm sensor, but I have not followed their line up as close as I used to so they may have slipped something in the 1Dx MKiv or 5D MKiv. Still Kudo's to the Magic Lantern folks for putting in on the 5D.

Paul Caldwell

 

[hcubell]

It has been mentioned many times by Fuji mainly in Japanese press statements that they are looking at a ES or Electronic First Curtain or both for the GFX. The full specs should be announced on the 19th of January.

If Fuji doesn't find a way to get to at least EFC on this camera, then IMO Hasselblad will have a considerable leg up due to shutter shock concerns. It's already been proven that the smaller mirrorless bodies have issues controlling this, i.e. A7R issues.

Paul Caldwell

I am sceptical that Fuji will be able to implement EFCS on the GFX. I don't believe anyone else has implemented it with the Sony 50 mp sensor. However, I tend to believe that Fuji is way too savvy and experienced to have engineered the GFX so that it suffers from shutter shock. Perhaps the thickness of the GFX body is to provide enough room to accommodate a dampening mechanism for the shutter. One thing we do know is that DIGLLOYD and other independent reviewers will be very carefully looking at this issue.

 

[dougpeterson]

I tend to believe that Fuji is way too savvy and experienced to have engineered the GFX so that it suffers from shutter shock.

Every body that uses a focal plane shutter "suffers" from shutter shock. The only question is whether it is more than normal, or, framed differently, in what situations the shutter shock is problematic/visible vs negligible. That spectrum ranges from "barely ever of consequence" to "frequently troublesome".