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Leica S2 delayed and possible price?

dfarkas

Workshop Member
Couldn't agree more with this Marc. I've had my kit over a year and still learning it's nuances.
Should it really have to be this way?

What if you could just pick up a camera, shoot, and get great results with less work? Sounds like one of those idealistic alternative energy ads from big oil that have been gracing our TV screens in the last year or so...

The S2 is simple to use. It is straightforward and works like a camera should. The camera shouldn't get in the way. It shouldn't complicate matters. I know that many photographers struggle with MF and its quirks (er... I mean nuances :D). My point is, why?

David
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Should it really have to be this way?

What if you could just pick up a camera, shoot, and get great results with less work? Sounds like one of those idealistic alternative energy ads from big oil that have been gracing our TV screens in the last year or so...

The S2 is simple to use. It is straightforward and works like a camera should. The camera shouldn't get in the way. It shouldn't complicate matters. I know that many photographers struggle with MF and its quirks (er... I mean nuances :D). My point is, why?

David
Gee, I didn't know people were already shooting with the S2 and already know all about it. If it's a camera without quirks it'll be a first for Leica.

Don't know about you, but with every camera I've ever owned, I got better with it as I spent time with it. These days we've been on the "upgrade" treadmill, and the cycles became coloser and closer. New stuff added each time. New stuff to master and apply.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I cant wait to see the thing launched and all the questions answered - whether we like the answers or not...
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I cant wait to see the thing launched and all the questions answered - whether we like the answers or not...
Same here.

After all my investigations of Digital MF systems so far my picture rounds up like that - note that the order does not mean any preference:

Hasselblad - pretty mature WRT lenses and leaf shutter, great preference by many Pro's (whatever that means), great marketing, good cameras, but so far only till Crop 1.1, not quite clear whay they did not take the same step like Phase and directly introduce a FF 60MP back, Phocus a prett good SW

Phase One - seems to be market leader WRT backs, camera system is Mamiya and this is good, has already focal plane shutter and a new model is going to come this summer for leaf shutter, digital lenses awesome, but not yet the lineup as Hasselblad, Capture One Pro is for me clear superior compared to Phocus and they have much longer experience in this. Today this system would be somehow my preference if I had to buy right now

Leica - very promising, if we assume that all will work then camera surely the best what will exist, lenses superior to anything else on the market, they will have leaf shutter as well as focal plane shutter from the beginning! SW will be Capture One, which is clearly best, uncertainity is their execution, speed and future directions - still would be tempted to buy this system, not sure why, maybe masochism :D

Of curse a big argument for me would be if Leica sells the S2 for around €10.000.- to €12.000.- body only - not sure if this would ever happen, but that would make me really weak.....

Just my own and very subjective conclusions so far :angel:
 
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PeterA

Well-known member
Pete - it all depends on what and how you shoot - as well as what gear you already have. You are in a very good position - starting out with no legacy issues. I have had a lot of fun playing with MFD systems over teh last few years. No doubt I could have saved a lot of money - waiting - but then again I couldn't predict the massive discounts offered today - last year! :)

I am currently finishing my personal analysis of the Sinar/Hy6 system - like the P45+ mamiya body and lenses - I am testing teh Sinar against Hasselblad H3D11-39 - which is my benchmark MF system

A 1.1 X crop factor in the 39 megapixel backs is no big deal - for that matter I dont 'mind' the 1.3X crop that the Sinar 75 gives me.

My experience is that all the high end backs deliver pretty much the same excellent files. Some differences in the GUI of the various software packages and yes maybe Phocus isnt as fancy as C1 - but then again C1 isn't as fancy as Photoshop for post raw conversion work.

The software is all about tethered shooting and teh manufacturers base line view on what their files should look like. The more you get into this stuff - the less you care about flim flams.

No doubt in my mind that the Schneider / Rodenstock glass on my Alpa - is the bees knees for resolution, colour and contrast.

The more I shoot with my old M8 - the more I am tempted to buy an M8.2 - in fact I think I will. The more I shoot with my Alpa - the more I see the greatest benefit from my high megapixel backs.

I think that Schneider and Zeiss glass I use on my Hy6 Rollie mount - draws better than Fujiblad - however the system is compromised by question marks about the manufacturing situation - as well as exorbitant pricing.

I am very tempted by the S2 because it is a leica - I am wary of teh S2 - because it will be a Leica.

At the end of the day - pretty much any one of these systems gives me more capability than I can use - and ( ironically) I still make my highest hit rate with prints - using film on MF or 35mm.

there is no wrong decision IMHO - each system requires some mucking around and compromise. Today I would say take care in yoru choice - and make the number one issue - your idea about which company will survive. regarding higher and higher megapixels- I dont need them and I dont use them - so I don't care. I currently own 3 digi backs - CFV11/H3d11-39/Sinar 75LV - forcedto choose - I'd stay with the blad. You shouls seriously consider starting with a 22 megapixel back like Guys in P25+ or a Sinar 54LV or a Leaf equivalent or even a blad 31 megapixel- second hand they are cheap and great value - choose your system and go!

There really isnt much difference between teh 22/39 backs except for landscape work ( maybe if that).

Good luck.
 
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ptomsu

Workshop Member
Hm,

I see the advantages in price of the P25+.

Although I will check the prices, but think in order to start for digital MF landscape a P45+ seems to be the better choice.

But I will check, depends on how good the P25+ prices are :D
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Buy used to start and if you want to move up than just sell the back you still have the body and the glass. Prices are good trust me. LOL
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
The P45+ used with full guarantee by Phase (obviously checked and serviced) plus camera plus 80 comes for €15.990.-

Very attractive price too compared to where it has been ....

Think you are completely right, I will buy used back first! Then the loss n any case is much lower compared to buying new.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Hm,

I see the advantages in price of the P25+.

Although I will check the prices, but think in order to start for digital MF landscape a P45+ seems to be the better choice.

But I will check, depends on how good the P25+ prices are :D
Hi Peter:

This may be a good time for me to add some direct landscape print experience for you to ponder in your current decision matrix.

When Guy, Lance and I tested the P65+ back, we made several images where we simply swapped out each back onto the camera without moving it, then also moved the camera forward a bit with the P65+ back so as to equalize image magnification. As such, we had as similar a real-life shooting situation as one can do in the field, at the same time limiting as many variables as practical (same lens, same camera, same image, same light and same exposure).

With these images created, I then pulled them into C1 and processed them as ideally as possible by balancing color temp to the same gray patch in each image, then adjusted exposure so that the same area of clear blue sky shared the same average luminance value as the P45+ zero value. There were no fully-blown whites in any file. FWIW, this resulted in a +0.1 exposure difference for P25+, and a -0.2 difference for the P65+, for a net +0.3 difference between P25+ and P65+. I then output them to CS4 and processed them each for both 32" and 48" prints.

Here is a summary of the results:

Detail. At 32", you could only detect the slightest difference in detail -- like your nose in the print at 6" subtle -- between the P25+ and P45+/P65+ when the images were compared side-by-side. There was essentially no discernible difference between the P45+ and P65+ at that print size. At 48", there was a bit more gap now betwen the P25+ and the others, and a very slight gain to the P65+. Again, this was such a subtle difference that I doubt even 10% of photographers could tell which was which if the prints were not compared side-by-side. This surprised me. At any rate, at this size the difference in detail became a bit more noticeable in the side-by-side between the P45+ and P65+, though still slight.

Tonality. This was interesting. The P25+ had less total DR by about 1/4 stop than the P45+, and the P45+ about 1/4 stop less DR than the P65+. This was derived by measuring the same low shadow tone in each file. However, there was a "look" to the P25+ file that was clearly superior to the P45+ and P65+ -- the look which prompted the "magic of the 9 micron pixel" thread. Here I found that that I needed to bump up the clarity slider of the P45+ file about 20 points, and the P65+ about 40 points to match the look of the P25+ file. And when I did that, the increase in micro-contrast reduced total DR back to identical in all files(!)

Color. The P65+ renders color differently than either the P25+ or P45+, which render color almost identically. I will not say one is better or worse, as color is very subjective, but feel it is important to note they are different.

My conclusion was thus: If you are not going to print larger than 32" single file most of the time and only occasionally to 48" or larger from a single file, then the P25+ is more than adequate. If you are going to regularly print to 48" and larger from a single file, the P45+ or P65+ are probably worth the extra $$$. (Stitching is a different story.)

Hope that helps,
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The P45+ used with full guarantee by Phase (obviously checked and serviced) plus camera plus 80 comes for €15.990.-

Thats 20800 US as of today. You can do the same with a P25+ for 8k less. Warranty is out end of May though. Just a thought and now i will stay out of this because I am starting to sound like a used car salesman. Either way think about used to start it is a nice way to get in see if it is your cup of tea or not. For some people it is not and if your on the fence than it is less risk at the end of the day.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Guy,

Some clarification please... Per your ad in the B&S, you are selling your total kit with the back, body and 80 for $12,000, right? So to be accurate, that is $8800, or almost $9K less than the P45+ deal referenced above...
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Peter

There are some wonderful used MFD bargains out there at the moment. I recently managed to source an essentially new H3D11-22 - 49 clicks! - direct from Hasselblad for little more than a Nikon D3X. Everything the folk here have said about these 22MP backs is true, they deliver remarkable image quality at a remarkable price.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy,

Some clarification please... Per your ad in the B&S, you are selling your total kit with the back, body and 80 for $12,000, right? So to be accurate, that is $8800, or almost $9K less than the P45+ deal referenced above...
That is correct 12k gets you a back, phase one body and 80 D lens. Most likely sell my 35 and 55 lenses as well since I really want the 45mm with the P30 plus.

Thanks for picking up on that. I'm cleaning the house before my wife comes home being gone 10 days and running around
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Thanks folks,

especially your findings about the P25+ back are really valuable for me!

I will further check all of this when I talk to my local dealer here in Austria and see which prices I can get. Definitely a used solution is what I see now as very good for me.
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
The Leica S2 is not a serious pro's tool in my view. Its a status symbol to grace the deck of a yacht, or to be thrown casually in the back of one's Ferrari. That red dot! Gosh, money!

That is, unless it comes in below $10k, when a few well-healed but not uber rich enthususiast might consider it. Why on earth would a true working pro give it a second glance unless it is priced much more reasonably than expected (and assuming it is ever released)?

Quentin
 

LJL

New member
Quentin,
Your perspectives are quite correct. However, there does appear to be a place for the S2 in a pro's kit, or as the pro's kit. There are a lot of shooters now using 35mm DSLRs, myself included, that are looking for more, and not just the cost part. They are also NOT looking for the MF maze of parts and complications, plus they are looking for more of the handling of the DSLRs. While there is not much doubt that the existing MF kits are probably more capable all the way around, there still are things that they cannot do as well, nor maybe fit as well in how some folks prefer to shoot.

For somebody that already has an extensive MF kit, I would think the S2 would be something one might look at with interest, but see some shortcomings. For somebody without any MF kit, or a very limited one, the S2 could become a serious system for their shooting needs, especially if those folks have come from 35mm DSLR solutions and systems. It will not replace all of the MF capabilities, yet it does offer some things that even the top end MF rigs are not yet doing, plus more pixels and resolution than anything on the DSLR side of things.

Your point (also made by others) about "assuming it is ever released", is a valid one for sure. The other one about the pricing is probably the biggest concern most folks have. We will not know how good, bad, ugly, or great it is until it is released, or at least in the hands of some testers that are allowed to thoroughly report on it....AND post some images, plus we get some idea on a price. At this point, everything else is speculation, wishing, criticizing, praising, etc. On paper, the ideas look very interesting at the least. The prototypes folks have handled have impressed most. The system line-up, though incomplete, is not a bad start. The images folks have seen prints of have not failed to impress, but until things get more locked down and released, nobody knows for sure.

Like you, I am rooting for a seriously competitive entry price for the S2. I would love it to become a true professional camera, rather than the typical overpriced status symbol or collector's kit. Nothing wrong with those concepts, but they seem like a huge waste for what otherwise could be a very seriously useful camera system.

LJ
 

stephengilbert

Active member
"Assuming it is ever released?" Does Leica have a history of announcing and showing preproduction models of cameras and then not releasing them? If they've done that in the past, I'd appreciate some information on what undelivered products they announced and when. Even speculation ought to have some limits.
 
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jonoslack

Active member
The Leica S2 is not a serious pro's tool in my view. Its a status symbol to grace the deck of a yacht, or to be thrown casually in the back of one's Ferrari. That red dot! Gosh, money!

That is, unless it comes in below $10k, when a few well-healed but not uber rich enthususiast might consider it. Why on earth would a true working pro give it a second glance unless it is priced much more reasonably than expected (and assuming it is ever released)?

Quentin
I think that's an odd attitude.
Surely it's success should depend on how good it is . . . and if it's an also ran for twice the price of the competition THEN they'll have to depend on the ferrari crowd.

But if it produces MF quality in a dSLR sized body with dSLR handling, then I think there are people who'll want it. Even if it's expensive.

As Stephen says - why suggest it might not be released?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Leica = Passion. ;)

High meg DSLRs are much smaller now days ... when the D700X hits the streets and joins the D5-II along with the A900 (and its next iteration) ... then size will not be the comparison point.

Frankly, my integrated MFD already acts like a DSLR in many of the critical areas of operation, and is getting better with each new development ... so, IMO, the S2 will have to be AS good as my Nikons at AF and shooting speed, or there is little to gain and lot of cash to lose.

So, as I've mentioned before, it'll come down to IQ ... with some pretty stiff MFD competition in that arena also. But Leica glass has always been the tipping point, so we'll have to wait and see.

I agree that I can't recall an impending launch without follow through from Leica ... but I also cannot remember an economy this bad either, and I've been around awhile.

I'm inclined as a professional that could well use a camera like the S2, to not indulge in it for reasons of money, and for being abandoned by Leica with a very expensive DMR and the whole system that was dedicated to it.
 
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