The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

An update on camera shake and tripods (Phase)

LJL

New member
With respect to tripod stabilization with extra weight, I have found that the typical single point, such as the central hook or whatever, does impart more lateral movements, even when things appear "still". What I have found to work is to create more equal tension across all the legs, rather than just the center. I use a sort of apron sling that attaches to each leg and the weight goes into the center area, providing inward and downward tension on the legs at the same time. This does tend to dampen vibration quite nicely, as well as create a more stable set-up. It just is not as convenient to set up and use as simply hanging a bag from a hook. Works nicely when set up for lots of shots from a single spot, but a bit cumbersome to break down and haul around quickly. Just a thought for those doing landscapes and longer exposure shots where any vibration could impact things.

LJ
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Tim,

The Cube is outlandishly expensive, but *EVERYBODY* I've recommended it to that actually bought it, has commented that the pain of purchase was forgotten after the first 15 minutes of use. Really, I'm not making that up.

The real killer for me, was the realization that when sitting on top of my Gitzo CF pod, the money invested in the total pod assembly would provide maybe 3 years worth of food and lodging for a family of 5 in any 3rd world country...

Cheers,
C'mon Jack, things aren't that bad in the UK yet... it's not an either or for me!

Seriously, thanks for the advice. I'm not sure whether the BH-55 with its slight weight saving and heavy price saving will maybe be the choice but I feel the Cube calling sooo badly... I just need a second hand one...
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

Lordy is this ever a weak use of a Sunday but here goes:

Gitzo GT2330 tripod (two stage, light)
Manfrotto 055PROB tripod (three stage, heavier but still fairly light)
Manfrotto 32RC2 Ball Head (lighter and hard to adjust)
Manfrotto 410 Geared Head (heavier but really nice to adjust)

For weight reasons the rig I took to Iceland was the Gitzo pod and the Frotto Ballhead and as we now all know I got shake (with MUP and cable) at and under 1/80th in conditions that varied widely from still to breezy and underfoot from shale to sand to snow to rock. I should add that the Gitzo at some point lost a rubber foot but I have a rough idea when that happened and it seems not to have made much difference.

So today I tested the Phamiya on each possible rig combo and at shutter speeds from 1/20th through 1/125th. Footing was suspended wooden decking, I used MUP and then almost immediate cable release (about a one second delay) because that's how I want to be able to work in the field.

The results were given either a tick for "good enough for me" or a ? for "marginal" or an X for 'Poor" or XX for "Woof"

So in order of success (good first):

Geared On Manfrotto
1/20th X
1/40th X
1/80th √
1/125th √

Geared On Gitzo
1/20th X
1/40th X
1/80th ?
1/125th √

Ball on Manfrotto
1/20th XX
1/40th X
1/80th ?
1/125th √

Ball On Gitzo
1/20th XX
1/40th XX
1/80th ?
1/125th √


In other words, the heavier the rig the better... as you've all been telling me!

Still now I know what speeds I can use with the cheap nasty gear I own until the Cube arrives and I mount it one of the Pyramids of Giza...

T
 

Dale Allyn

New member
My 3541XLS came with a hook installed, and I DO use it. But as Jack states, a swinging weight is of little help. In "studio" I have several sandbags which I use for macro stuff. They are position on each leg and the center hook. In the field I use a back back and a waist pack, and depending on conditions and needs, will typically hang one or both from the hook. (Or sometimes strap the waist pack around the legs near the top.) BUT if it's windy or you can't stop the weight from swinging, etc. it's better to just let things settle down without all the crap draped on the 'pod. Each circumstance should discount the choice of weighting. Frankly, most of the time I'm finding that the 3541XLS needs no help, but I'm still kind of using the "belt and suspenders" approach if I have the time and I'm in the mood. A result of trying to wring more out of my Explorer and other 'pods I suppose.

:)

FWIW, my main pod is the 3541XLS (it only weighs 1.97kg) and I use it with the first 2 moveable sections fully extended and the last section about 6" extended 90% of the time. And I will go to the mat saying it's the single best tripod I've ever used. But again, I do *NOT* have a center column in it, just the flat top plate -- I strongly believe center columns increase vibrations even if set to their lowest level...

Oh, and I *used* to replace the brass head bolt on the underside of the top plate with a steel 3/8" thread eye-bolt, which provided a "hook" to hang my bag from. In the end, I felt the practice offered variable results; a swinging 30 pound bag adding more movement to the assembly than it removed... (Note of caution if you try this -- that brass bolt is blind-pinned into place and you have to snap that hidden pin to remove it, rendering the bolt useless for reuse. Use a jam nut on the underside of the plate to hold whatever new bolt you replace it with firmly in place.)

Cheers,
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
tim:

1) Your Gitzo 2330 will not be heavy enough and is aluminum so I'd say forget it; IMO you really need a 3 series Gitzo CF at minimum for rock-solid MF capture.

2) The Cube is going to be virtually impossible to find. I have seen two total in the past three years and even then they wen't for maybe 90% of new -- and there is a reason for that :D

Cheers,
 

PeterA

Well-known member
My journey saw me travel the following roads -

1) muck around with all of the above issues
2) only shoot in perfect conditions
3) avoid complicated full of vibration potential SLR type camera platforms


In the field nothing has delievered to me a sharper image than a simple Alpa set up.

I am considering an arTec to add tilt and shift and precise focusing capability - but hesitate because it is a more complicated relative to Alpa. The (now) geared tilt movement on the arTec has removed a previous design weakness....I dont wish to end up back somewher beetwen 1 and 2. but the tilt is tempting for the type of landscape shooting I like.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
My journey saw me travel the following roads -

1) muck around with all of the above issues
2) only shoot in perfect conditions
3) avoid complicated full of vibration potential SLR type camera platforms


In the field nothing has delievered to me a sharper image than a simple Alpa set up.

I am considering an arTec to add tilt and shift and precise focusing capability - but hesitate because it is a more complicated relative to Alpa. The (now) geared tilt movement on the arTec has removed a previous design weakness....I dont wish to end up back somewher beetwen 1 and 2. but the tilt is tempting for the type of landscape shooting I like.
By far the sharpest images I got all week were taken on the Cambo setup mounted on the same tripod that gave me grief otherwise and in a 60mph gusting wind.... however the shutter speed was 1/250th, about the highest I shot all week and so I'm not sure what I can take from it. I'll try the CF gitzo tripod first, then add a cube if needs be...

No wonder so few people exhibit large prints!
 

Dale Allyn

New member
Pete,

I like much about the arTec too, but especially the tilt function. If they had a Phase One back mount for it I fear that I'd be ordering one. I guess I'm lucky there isn't that option yet. :)
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Pete,

I like much about the arTec too, but especially the tilt function. If they had a Phase One back mount for it I fear that I'd be ordering one. I guess I'm lucky there isn't that option yet. :)
Your situation kind of underlines my only problem with closed back systems that dont allow the user to choose multiple shooting platforms, the cost of a back is multiples of the cost of decent hardware.

The only reason I added a Sinar 75LV to my kit was the interchangeable adaptors. I can use Hy6 ( native) or any of the three others including V I have ordered. *The arTec supports the V mount as well as Sinar.

incidentally, I would have been just as happy with a Hasselblad CF back which offers the same utility - all the backs are great and if you wish to get your hands dirty and use the functionality that Adobe has delivered now in their profiling software - you can pretty much dial in a look that replicates the precanned looks that all athe back makers deliver. Personally, I cant be bothered trying to improve the Sinar look - I have found it to be second to none in natural colour look straight our of the can so to speak.

I will report to the forum if I decide to go ahead with the arTec - either way though I still see my simple Alpa as the most elegantly perfect simple system I have come across - for MFD shooting.


Best
Pete
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
By far the sharpest images I got all week were taken on the Cambo setup mounted on the same tripod that gave me grief otherwise and in a 60mph gusting wind.... however the shutter speed was 1/250th, about the highest I shot all week and so I'm not sure what I can take from it. I'll try the CF gitzo tripod first, then add a cube if needs be...

No wonder so few people exhibit large prints!
The Cambo's mass sits more over the center of the pod relative to an MF SLR and therefore generates a much smaller angular load moment (and thus less vibrations) at the head...
 

PeterA

Well-known member
ha! lets deconstruct that..( ie lets leave the differentials behind and do some nice old fashioned intergration)

traditional MF cameras are lard arsed legacy systems designed to house big mirrors and film backs and to hang lard arsed bulky heavy lens deisgns off - hence the 'angular' movement leading to all sorts of exagerrated vibration. - simple physics ALWAYS working against you.

sad but true.
 

carstenw

Active member
...although, the arTec is tall and flat, so in a bit of wind, it could easily vibrate as well. I look forward to seeing photos of and by it, if you decide to get one. It sounds like Sinar want very much for it to be a success, given that they made the tilt mechanism geared so soon after releasing it. I guess several photographers were concerned.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
...although, the arTec is tall and flat, so in a bit of wind, it could easily vibrate as well. I look forward to seeing photos of and by it, if you decide to get one. It sounds like Sinar want very much for it to be a success, given that they made the tilt mechanism geared so soon after releasing it. I guess several photographers were concerned.
I wanted one more than anything else I could find, even spoke to them about a Phase/Mammy 645 fitting and they sounded mildly pleased to hear that someone was interested but uncommitted as to whether they'd make it...
 
Re: I really am a nerd - I did a tripod/head test in detail

Lordy is this ever a weak use of a Sunday but here goes:

Geared On Manfrotto
1/20th X
1/40th X
1/80th √
1/125th √

T
Hi Tim,

I read this with interest as I just made some tripod captures for the high ISO thread...

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6039&page=4

The only tripod I had to hand was a Gitzo GT-530 (don't laugh!) which is their smallest and lightest travel tripod...

http://www.gitzo.com/Jahia/site/git...9:3CAT:CC45:4CAT:DD52&curMarketId=MARKET:MKT1

With mirror lock up and the camera+tripod combo on top of an old washing machine, I had no issue getting 2.5 second exposure with no shake. I did of course have no problems with wind!

Here you go...



That's a 100% crop of this image...



I guess our shutter is very unobtrusive.

Best,


David
 

PeterA

Well-known member
...although, the arTec is tall and flat, so in a bit of wind, it could easily vibrate as well. I look forward to seeing photos of and by it, if you decide to get one. It sounds like Sinar want very much for it to be a success, given that they made the tilt mechanism geared so soon after releasing it. I guess several photographers were concerned.


Well Carsten - I agree with your observation regarding its 'sail' potential - one doesnt know until one tests in the conditions that will test so to speak. It is the connection between body and tripod that has me concerned.

Firstly, the camera body is wide - and I want to see how well it balances on a tripod with Cube and ball type mounts - how well it slides between focusing mode and shooting mode, how secure and precise all this is ( really)

Secondly, the arTec comes with its own inbuilt panning mechanism. This mechanism sits just above the point of tripod connection. It isnt large. If I want to shoot panoramas and include near as well as far subject matter - I will need to add a sliding device ala RRS.Novaflex etc in order to make sure I get the nodal point correct lined up. there are two issues here for me:

1. Balance - how far out from center of tripod does the wide and sail like camera body have to go with lenses ranging from 23 to 100ish and will this introduce exactly the type of problems/issues one gets with MF camera bodies alluded to in this thread? and

2. Why didnt Sinar envisage that landscape shooters and architectural shooters may like to shoot using nodal point stitches - and perhaps come up with an integrated solution themselves - not requiring the user to add a slide themselves between camera and tripod?

I would have preferred a larger bulkier connection to a tripod than its current small diameter panning mechanism.

I have to check all this stuff out - if it works as well as I am hoping - then I can start to ditch a lot of MF gear and replace it with 3-4 Rodenstocks and the arTec.

Regarding mounts - we cant really 'blame' Sinar/Jenoptic for playing the same game as everyone is playing these days. However - note that one can use Leaf/Sinar and any V mount back on the system. Phase owners should actually hassle PHASE about their proprietary single at a time mount - rather than criticise Sinar for making what might be the killer product for architectural and certain landscape type shooting.

Ironically the biggest issue for landscape shooting may actually be the limited focal lengths that Rodenstock make - focal lengths stop at around 100 at the long end in this mount if memory serves me correctly.

I wont know until I try - and I have to go to Sydney from Melbourne to find out.

Yaya has used the artec and may be able to chime in here with some observations....
 

PeterA

Well-known member
oh and david - you posted as I was typing and gave me a great analogy in your shot. My Ducati came with racing as well as street pipes as well as two different chips to suit accordingly.

Your Honda has the aftermarket Arrows plastered on - much better than the standard crapola - but Termiggnonis they aren't - but you didnt pay Ducati prices- so thats just fine.

My point? it really BUGS me that users are asked to pay enormous dollars and important details like - nodal point shooting are not considered and incorporated in their system.

My only wish from Hasselblad is that they GET IT INTO THEIR HEADS that a DNG file without all the hassle of having to go through Phocus would be VERY appreciated! :) I want to use a proper DAM workflow from the get go - not a cobbled together band aid version that suits some software engineers who dont care and create time and cost hassles for me. If I dont need /want teh DAC corrections I should be able to just use DNG output no?
 
I don't pay Ducati servicing either. ;-)

...but I still want one. Next time I am in Melbourne, I expect a demo!

As for your second comment you are exactly right and progress is being made.

David

Actually, even though the Arrow is no Terry Wogan (our name for Termiggnonis) everyone comments on the sound out of it. Its spectacular... (without the 'optional extra' legal bit for it to pass EU regulation)
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Next time you are down here - you can take Bella out for a ride - or better still comedown to the farm at the Mornington Peninsula ( about an hr out from CBD) and we can hit some vineyards etc etc as well as go for a serious fang on perfect bike roads.
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
Looks like the Gitzo 1228 is going to need to go into the buy and sell section. I've putting it off for awhile, but I need to be more diligent about using the right tripod and ball head for landscape shots.
 
Top