Base ISO, long exposure times, and nighttime panoramas

[dougpeterson]

"You can use our Multi-Pop / Long Exposure Device with a Phase One digital back"

Doug,

Have you tried this? I have never been able to use the B setting on my Contax 645 with a P45 because of some error between the electronics in the Contax grip and the P45. 32 seconds on auto is the longest I have ever been able to utilize. Does the multi-pop device counteract this?

Doug, does the multi-pop/long exposure device work with the mechanical release socket? I don't have a heavy-duty tripod yet (I have a Manfrotto 055C and was planning to test it to see how it goes), but I just ordered a BH-55, so I guess the head is covered. I might pick up a Berlebach tripod if the 055C is not good enough. The workflow is something I plan to learn

The device works by fully decoupling the body and back from eachother so that you can actuate the shutter in whatever way, and as many times, as you would like. The digital back becomes just like a traditional film back set on multi-exposure (no advance after shutter release); you turn it on (remove the dark slide) and turn it off (put in the dark slide).

So yes, your mechanical release socket would work fine. And yes, it does allow any mix/match of shutter releases and shutter durations.

Or another way of thinking about it: Whatever you can do with no back attached you can do with a P or P+ back and this device.

Is that your P25+, by the way? I have the feeling from reading your recent posts that you are considering the P45+. Anyway, I understand that Phase doesn't actually change mounts, but gets the back on hand, and waits for one with the correct mount to come in, and then swaps them. I am not sure I would want to wait around for that, as for the less common Contax (in the Phase/Mamiya world) it could take some time. I have heard of people waiting months...

In general the swap time is very quick. There were a few customers who had to wait unusually long after there was a seachange of users switching to the Mamiya mount after Phase One and Mamiya began their partnership. You keep the back which is being swapped until the replacement is ready.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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[carstenw]

The device works by fully decoupling the body and back from eachother so that you can actuate the shutter in whatever way, and as many times, as you would like. The digital back becomes just like a traditional film back set on multi-exposure (no advance after shutter release); you turn it on (remove the dark slide) and turn it off (put in the dark slide).

So yes, your mechanical release socket would work fine. And yes, it does allow any mix/match of shutter releases and shutter durations.

So, I would turn on the back, "open" it, activate the camera's shutter with bulb and the cable release, and when done, "close" the back again, i.e. stop measuring light? It is a bit disappointing that it doesn't work directly with the camera without assistance, since I thought the Contax 645 had the proper communication for this type of thing, but I suppose it is usable.

In general the swap time is very quick. There were a few customers who had to wait unusually long after there was a seachange of users switching to the Mamiya mount after Phase One and Mamiya began their partnership. You keep the back which is being swapped until the replacement is ready.

Well, I have no use for a Mamiya-mount back, so it doesn't actually matter to me where it sits. Is there some way to find out in advance, i.e. before buying, how long it will take exactly? I presume Phase keeps a few backs on hand of the various mounts, and can say if they have one in stock at a given time?

 

[dougpeterson]

So, I would turn on the back, "open" it, activate the camera's shutter with bulb and the cable release, and when done, "close" the back again, i.e. stop measuring light? It is a bit disappointing that it doesn't work directly with the camera without assistance, since I thought the Contax 645 had the proper communication for this type of thing, but I suppose it is usable.

You got it right with the workflow. Kind of annoying that it's not an integrated workflow, but if you want a digital back to exceed 30 seconds on a Contax then a Phase back with this device is the only way to go. And I can earnestly say it's not that big a deal; after all, anytime you're shooting more than 30 seconds you're on a tripod and usually have both hands available.

Well, I have no use for a Mamiya-mount back, so it doesn't actually matter to me where it sits. Is there some way to find out in advance, i.e. before buying, how long it will take exactly? I presume Phase keeps a few backs on hand of the various mounts, and can say if they have one in stock at a given time?

Yeah, no problem. If you call Chris or Dave at the office in Atlanta 877-217-9870 then they can check on the current estimated times for you so there wouldn't be any guess work.

 

[carstenw]

Okay, that's nice to know; thanks. I will not bother them until I have some money together. Speaking of which, if you were to get in a used or refurbished P25+, what is the sort of price range that it would go for at the moment? I would want the basic warranty for sure, but maybe not the 3-year deal.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Is that your P25+, by the way? I have the feeling from reading your recent posts that you are considering the P45+. Anyway, I understand that Phase doesn't actually change mounts, but gets the back on hand, and waits for one with the correct mount to come in, and then swaps them. I am not sure I would want to wait around for that, as for the less common Contax (in the Phase/Mamiya world) it could take some time. I have heard of people waiting months...

I already have 35mm/3.5, 80mm/2, 120mm/4 Macro, Hartblei 45mm/3.5 and a fun Arsat 30mm/3.5, all in Contax mount, so switching to any other system at this point looks distinctly unattractive. Apart from that, I really like the system.

The 35mm lens is 35mm-equivalent to a 21mm on 645 FF, 25mm on a P25+ and a 28mm on the P30+, all of which seem reasonable for my uses. 25mm is preferable over 28mm, but of course, 31MP is preferable to 22MP. Hmm.

Lets see on my back my 28 is a 21 FF 35mm. Yes i maybe selling mine and not in a big hurry anyway. When your ready and interested i maybe able to get a mount swap. There is a lens conversion table on the CI site you can check. If not mine you can always work through the folks at CI with Dave and Chris , one way or another we can get you a Contax mount Phase Back. If I sell mine I am buying from them anyway, we are all good friends.

 

[Mark_Tuttle]

Thanks, Doug.

 

[Paratom]

Carsten, at what f-stop did you shoot the images?
So far I have never run into exposure longer than 30 seconds with my M8 at dusk/dawn, but than again I also usually dont close the f-stop that much.
Here is one with the M8, 640ISO, 1/16, handhold, which would translate into 1/4 at 160 ISO. IN reality it was even a little darker than the image looks like.
I dont believe that its possible to have details in shaddows at night and to get a nicely exposed sky at the same time. I often dial in minus exposure compensation when I shoot landscapes in dawn.
However I can see how it is allways better to have an option, even if you only use it here and then (or maybe only once), vs not having the option and maybe wanting it later on.
I also have to say that I would not want to unscrew/screw the Sinar adapter all the time. Yes, it is simple, and I could see it to do it maybe once a month but not all the time. So IMO its better to have a plan where you could leave one adapter on the back most of the time.

 

[carstenw]

That's a really beautiful shot, Tom. I was shooting at f/8. f/5.6 might have been enough, but it was a bit later than in this shot, because I wanted the deep blue skies combined with the lights in all the restaurants.

HDR Panoramas are different than normal evening shooting, for which 32s might well be enough. I was shooting 3 passes, which ideally should have been at 1s, 8s, and 64s, but due to not having a shutter release cable, I shot at 1s, 4s, and 4s at ISO 640, which is less than ideal already. The 64s second frame is meant to get the clean shadows which can then be brought up for a gentle HDR look where the entire frame is visible, with detail. The thing about HDR panoramas is that the interesting bits are rarely so dark, but there is always something in between various frames which is. In fact, looking over the partial results, the noise in the shadows is too high, and they are clearly underexposed, so 64s might not even have been enough. And this is at dusk, in a city. Imagine after dusk, outside the city, or in an area with less lights.

Thierry is probably right in that almost all night captures can be done with a 32s exposure (although not Jack's star trails), but HDR panoramas put different demands on the captures.

If I just wanted to do one or two such panoramas, I would get the Sinar, which really appeals to me, and just forget about them, but this is one of the major reasons why I want to move to MF, given that the M8, in spite of its generally high IQ, doesn't have that great noise characteristics in the shadows. I am hoping to make a body of work consisting of high-quality, high-res dusk city panoramas, and possibly market them.

 

[Paratom]

I guess that if this is your target I also would look for a phase back, maybe a P30+ if you can live with the crop.

Besides the maximum exposure time there is also the question how well the image results are at long exposures and maybe I am wrong but Ithink to remember that this is not the strongest side of Sinar Emotion backs (I could be wrong)-think to remember a thread where somebody compared Sinar-shots of polar light with those from a D3 and the D3 images were much better in his opinion.

Personally I am not a such big fan of HDR, most I have seen so far look somewhat artificial to me but I know some people who like it a lot.

 

[carstenw]

Yes, I am considering the P30+, but the sensor is smaller, and the inability to use it with a tech camera weighs on my mind, although I don't have one. I didn't see the Sinar/D3 comparison shots, I don't think, but that is interesting. I didn't know that.

I don't like the very fake-looking HDR images either, but that is not what I am after. If you stand in the evening in a park next to a street, you will see detail in the shadows in the park, yet the lights from the street will not look over-exposed. I am looking to use HDR techniques to approach reality, not depart from it. I might go on the other side of reality from what cameras currently give us, but only slightly, to give an enhanced but believable look at the evening world.

 

[carbonmetrictree]

Hey Carsten,

I helped my friend, Robert Kerian on this problem for his motorcycle shoots for Ducati. I sold him one of my multipops that I've been making and instructed him to physically tape the gold leads on his P45+ so that the camera could not "sense" what was connected to it. Because the signal from the camera to the back is now severed, you can now utilize the bulb mode setting on your Contax. So, all you have to do is wake the back on with the multipop and flip the switch to the "on" position to start capturing. Once that's done, just actuate the shutter with a cable release and keep it open as long as you want, then flip the multipop to the "off" setting to end the capture and close the shutter.

Not too sure if you already found your answer, but I wanted to chime in!

Andrew

So, I would turn on the back, "open" it, activate the camera's shutter with bulb and the cable release, and when done, "close" the back again, i.e. stop measuring light? It is a bit disappointing that it doesn't work directly with the camera without assistance, since I thought the Contax 645 had the proper communication for this type of thing, but I suppose it is usable.



Well, I have no use for a Mamiya-mount back, so it doesn't actually matter to me where it sits. Is there some way to find out in advance, i.e. before buying, how long it will take exactly? I presume Phase keeps a few backs on hand of the various mounts, and can say if they have one in stock at a given time?

 

[carstenw]

Thanks for the info. Hopefully I won't need to tape the contacts though.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Comparing exposure times with those of the M8 isn't really appropriate IMO because the DoF is some much shallower with the MF sensor. I find myself hitting 30 seconds far more frequently with my Mamiya/Phase than I would ever do so with FF DSLR, let alone a smaller sensor. To achieve acceptable DoF I find myself often shooting at f/8.0 to f/16 and beyond quite frequently. ISO 100 or 200 at f/16 or so equates to 30 seconds or longer exposures more than one might think.

I think it's fortunate that you're studying this now, Carsten, so as not to be caught off-guard after getting your back.

 

[carstenw]

Yes, that only emphasizes the conclusion, unfortunately: I really need a Phase One P+ back to do this kind of work. I am very happy that I did this dry-run before purchasing. I was reassured some time ago that 32s was enough for almost all uses, but although it certainly is, it doesn't suffice for this use which is quite important to me.

Although the price of a used or refurbished P25+/P30+ appears to be a closely guarded secret (I asked a couple of times for a ballpark figure, but was met with silence), poking around on the CI website seems to indicate that it will be more expensive than a Sinar e54LV. Sigh. I often wonder if for my uses a Sony A900 with a couple of Zeiss lenses wouldn't get me close enough.

 

[Jack]

Carsten:

I feel for you, I really do... The move to MF digital capture is a big one and there is no single clear path -- every choice has its own set of advantages and disadvantages. In the end however, the images you get from MF digital capture even with 2 generation old backs are so superior to *ANY* state of the art DSLR -- and I mean any of them -- that IMHO the expense to get there is well worth it.

That settled, all you need to do is gut up and make the purchase. Prices are as attractive now as they have ever been.

Good luck,

 

[Paratom]

Yes, that only emphasizes the conclusion, unfortunately: I really need a Phase One P+ back to do this kind of work. I am very happy that I did this dry-run before purchasing. I was reassured some time ago that 32s was enough for almost all uses, but although it certainly is, it doesn't suffice for this use which is quite important to me.

Although the price of a used or refurbished P25+/P30+ appears to be a closely guarded secret (I asked a couple of times for a ballpark figure, but was met with silence), poking around on the CI website seems to indicate that it will be more expensive than a Sinar e54LV. Sigh. I often wonder if for my uses a Sony A900 with a couple of Zeiss lenses wouldn't get me close enough.

From the price I could find when I purchased my back the prices for phase backs were slightly higher than Sinar. I still believe that the Emotion54LV is priced very attractive-but it doesnt fullfill your needs so its out.
The "problem" is that most brands offer very attractive sets if you buy a back you get body and lenses for nice prices, however if you buy a back only this doesnt help you.
As far as I know phase offers also very nice bundles with a horseman or a cambo camera.
If you are patient you might find a good deal for a used back. My feeling is that it is harder to find used backs here in Europe compared to the US.

 

[dougpeterson]

Although the price of a used or refurbished P25+/P30+ appears to be a closely guarded secret (I asked a couple of times for a ballpark figure, but was met with silence), poking around on the CI website seems to indicate that it will be more expensive than a Sinar e54LV.

That must be frustrating from your point of view. Let me explain and attempt to raise the transparency.

We generally do not post pricing on the boards, for many reasons. Prices vary by country and by package (one person may need an adapter/accessory/etc while someone else does not). Also, GetDPI has a commercial vendor section and this is not it and we want to be good board citizens. Also to avoid future viewers' confusion we would have to go back and edit all posts on all boards in case the price changes. You have no idea how often I get called asking for a special or a price which was discontinued/changed/improved more than a year ago. Apparently if you see it on the internet it must be true as-of-today.

Also to be fully frank when you post pricing on new products people begin comparing systems based on a particular number regardless of other differences. It's similar to how people compare a 1Ds III to a P25+ because they have similar resolution numerals next to them. Our price may include something that another system does not include or vice versa. They also begin comparing the price for a new warrantied back, with new accessories, dealer supported back with used prices they found on eBay or a FS board.

Anyway, I've sent you a PM with all the info. And anyone who wants pricing on any MFD product should find that any dealer on this forum or outside of this forum will be happy to send them pricing ASAP. My apologies on a day or two delay on responding to your request on this particular thread as there is a new price promotion which was in the midst of being finalized yesterday.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

 

[carstenw]

Thanks Doug, that is very kind of you, except that... err... I don't have a PM?

I would be perfectly happy with a statement like "we would sell a refurbished P25+ for around $10000 these days, but no promises for the future" or anything of that nature. I am simply looking for a ballpark figure.

For example, I know that the Sinar 54LV is being sold for about 8500 Euro by sinar.de in their online shop, and that if I went directly to the factory and bought there, which I can, it would cost around 7000 Euro. Second-hand it costs around 5000-6000 depending on warranty, packaging, etc. For the Phase back I cannot find this kind of information.

 

[dougpeterson]

Thanks Doug, that is very kind of you, except that... err... I don't have a PM?

Oops. Looks like I PM'd t_streng. Can't seem to do anything right today!

Doug

 

[carstenw]

I am sure he is getting a good laugh out of that.

Okay, the price for the P25+ is much higher than the e54LV (not quite double for the same kind of deal, without giving too much away), which puts it firmly out of my reach for now. I guess I will have to consider other options for the next year or two, and then maybe reconsider later again. Too bad, I was really looking forward to getting going with MF, but not being able to use a back I can afford, and not being able to afford a back I can use, is just game over for me for now.

Thanks everyone for their help anyway.