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Base ISO, long exposure times, and nighttime panoramas

Don Libby

Well-known member
Carsten

The P30+ and P30 backs are both wonderful backs. I would still have my P30+ (and money) had I not decided to go the technical camera route. So if you don't think you'd be going the TC route anytime soon I'd suggest the P30 with an upgrade path to the P45. Just thinking out loud here...

Good luck

Don
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Carsten -- I would definitely not get a 54LV to do long night exposures. I have one, and even on a night with absolutely clear, full moon and snow, 32 seconds at 400 and f/2 was underexposed by over 2 stops. The 54LV is listed as ISO 50, but it is actually 25 (it was originally 25, and the back has not changed, just the label of the ISO...this is what it says in the firmware update that changed it from 25 to 50). Maybe a phase back that can do 60 minutes would be a better choice, but honestly, the D3 is SO much better for this type of work. I would say take a serious look at a D3x, D3 or 5D mark 2 for this kind of work. Your exposure times will be shorter, and frankly, the files look better. Medium format does a lot of things really well, but this is definitely not one of them (at least with my back).

This is 32 seconds at ISO 400 and f/2 on a sinar back. At 100% it is noisy and soft (either from the lens or from the ISO smearing)



Here is a similar shot with a D3 at 30 seconds or so.

At 100%, it is sharper, there is less noise, and the color saturation is much better.
 

carstenw

Active member
Don, getting a P30 or any other non+ Phase back would not really help me; it would be a compromise, and I would only be able to do half the stuff I want with it. For that much money, and considering how much of a compromise working with MF already is (apart from the IQ, naturally), I would be quite unhappy to spend that much money and end up with such a limited workflow. I think at this point that I understand that only the Phase P+ backs would make me happy, yet I won't have that kind of money for a while, so I will just wait. I might have to wait a year, maybe two, but on the other hand, the prices will come down in the meantime. Who knows, maybe the S2 will be cheaper than expected and I can go that route. Haha.

Stuart, I like the Nikon bodies, but I am less keen on many of the Nikon lenses, apart from a few stellar zooms, like the 14-24 and the 24-70. I love primes, but Nikon has really stagnated here in the last few years, apart from their T/S lenses, and the occasional DX lens. Besides, 12MP is not enough of an advantage over my M8 to really make 4000 Euro worth it. I mean, that is almost as much as a used Sinar back, and the D3x is even more expensive. I don't like Canon cameras much, nor do I like their lenses, so I am not going that route.

If I would go DSLR, I would probably at this point pick up a Sony A900 with the Zeiss 24-70, and perhaps the 16-35, and then shoot at ISO 100 for max IQ, and just make the best of it. I can pick up an A900 in Britain for about £1600, which is really amazingly cheap, so I am considering this. I could add the 85/1.4 Zeiss and 135/1.8 Zeiss with time, to play with modern primes.

Or, I just sit tight, put money in the bank, and pile up the various bits and pieces in the meantime which I need, like the pano kit I just ordered, and the leveling base too, and whatever else I need. Maybe a more stable tripod. And an Epson V750 and I play with my M8 for digital, and my Hasselblad 2000FC/M and Contax 645 for film, and scan.

At the moment I am inclined to do the latter. The realization that the Sinar wouldn't do what I need, and that the Phase was too expensive for now was just a one-two punch which took the air out of me a bit, so I am really re-thinking what I want to do.
 

carstenw

Active member
I don't expect the German Phase P+ prices are low enough to get them into the range of a used e54LV, but if they are, I would be happy to have the info.

Regarding Nikon primes, essentially I am looking to duplicate my favorite Leica M primes, and maybe add a wide-angle zoom. The 14-24 is clearly great, and the 17-35 is also meant to be very good, maybe not quite as good. But the lenses like 35/1.4 or 35/2, 50/1.4, 85/1.4 and so on are mostly either very old, or very budget, lack silent wave motors, and so on. The 28/1.4 has not been made for some time. Some have plastic mounts! I just don't think that Nikon takes these lenses seriously. The pro is probably mostly happy with zooms, a portrait lens, some T/S lenses, and maybe a long lens or two, but that isn't what I do. Sony gives the Zeiss lens range, modern and sharp, with less CA and much better boke, often. This appeals. I also quite like the slightly odd, but somehow very focused buttons on the A900. The Nikons, and the Canons even more, often feel like computers more than cameras. So many buttons and options, many of them very esoteric, and not just shutterspeed, aperture, metering mode, ISO and so on, but all kinds of other things. I read a review recently where a long-time Nikon user spontaneously forgot where to find some function or other for a while, and was just totally lost. Canons are even worse, with buttons often being dual-purpose. This is not a problem for everyone, but I really like the minimalism of my Leica M8, and find the A900 somehow simpler than the competition. It is 24MP, which is double that of the camera in the Nikon range which it most closely equals in cost, the D700.

I agree about MF for meditation :) I will shoot film for that, which in some ways is even better than digital in this respect.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Carsten,
I think it uld be the non + phase backs which would be in the price range of a 54LV. Maybe you find a good deal for a used one.
If the Zeiss lenses give you the range you want and if you are happy to work with lower ISO the Sony sounds great.
I just read again and again about old the old Nikon designs and I think it is often overseen that it includes some really nice lenses. Old doesnt necesrly mean bad. (for example the 85/1.4 is nice, the 105DC is very nice - I would even compare it woth a 75 Summilux on the M8, the 35/2.0 is not bad) and then there are some very nice new lenses, like the 14-24,24-70, the 24PCE (I like this lens not only if I need T or S but also for its rendering and sharpness), the new 50/1.4 AFS is not bad (however I personally prefer the Sigma 50/1.4 which is a very nice lens) etc etc.
However I admit from a cost point of view and from the size if the body I also might go the Sony route, with maybe a wide angle zoom, the Zeiss standard zoom and a 135/1.8. What I might eventually miss would be a nice T/S lens.
However if your goal is to often photograph in dust / dawn it wouldnt hurt if you could increase ISO here and then. Even if you photograph landscape and non moving things you might run in to situations where you might want to shoot something including people or moving things.
I use 1600 ISO with my D3x quite often.
Cheers, Tom
 

carstenw

Active member
Well, I have a tripod and I am willing to use it :) I prefer the best possible quality to the convenience of high ISO. Anyway, for now I am happy to just watch the market evolve and use what I've got. I ordered an Epson V750 and will scan film for a while, as well as use the M8, which is really quite good for most things.

With time, some money should become available, and the P+ backs will probably drop in price with time as well, so somewhere in the middle we will meet. I will only go the A900 route if I get totally desperate.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I asked myself for the last weeks why would Carsten not use his MF-gear with film until he owns a digital back.
I have not scanned much since I allways thought it was a lot of work and time and big files-BUT if we talk about slowing down with MF gear, and taking less but maybe more carefull images, then why not take the time to scan the best ones and work that way.
 

carstenw

Active member
Yes, well, it is not what I was hoping to do, but now I have to :) I have already bought the chemicals and have the equipment to develop my own B&W, and have already done a dry-run with a film of test shots, so soon I will have everything I need to get this going. I look forward to it in a strange kind of way.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I think you will find that film has some really redeeming qualities. You might want to check out the "more and more fun with film, something other than Leica M" thread. It has an ungainly name, but there are a lot of good photos there...particularly check out emmawest's photos.
 

carstenw

Active member
Old thread, but there is some catching up to do.

In the end, I bought the not-so-old Sinar eMotion 54 LV from a member here, and used it for a few months with pleasure. Then I really re-discovered film, specifically Adox CHS 25 and 50, and ended up using it exclusively for my first long-term project, the cemetaries of Berlin (ongoing). At this point, I pretty much stopped using the back again, and it sat mostly idle on my shelf for several months.

Now I have decided that this makes little sense, and have sold/traded it with a member on this forum (keeping it in the family). I got a Zeiss ZF 21mm f/2.8, as well as a grip and a spare film back for my Contax 645, and some money. He got a Sinar eMotion 54 LV, the case, accessories, and an extra battery. We are both very happy :) I have ordered a Nikon D3, which should be here next week, coincidentally at the same time as my Linhof Master Technika.

I will be using my Leica M8 for events and travel, the D3 for action (my daughter), animal photography (zoo and travel), as well as HDR work and panoramas, and the occasional commercial task. My Hasselblad film system will be for portraits and perhaps some landscape, with the Contax 645 and Linhof MT for long-term artsy-fartsy projects, and the Linhof also for some portrait work.

I will contribute some MF film images to the image thread here, from time to time, but will likely otherwise mostly stay quiet in this forum (to the great jubilation of Phase and Hasselblad fans :)).

I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for the knowledge and help I have received while going through my brief MFDB phase. I learned a hell of a lot in a short time, and would not rule out a future return, if life should change yet again.
 
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