Phase One Takes Controlling Interest of Mamiya

[dougpeterson]

Today Phase One is announcing that they have have a controlling interest of Mamiya.

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Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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[Jack]

Hopefully this bodes well for speedier development and time to market for new cameras, lenses and accessories!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I'm with Jack on this one. Congrats to Phase One i see this as a good move for them.

 

[ddk]

Hopefully they have deep enough pockets to bring about real improvements. Or it might just be a way to block Leaf and Sinar competing with them on Mamiya based packages. Either way, shrewd move on their part!

 

[smhoer]

Hi Doug, The press release says Phase became a major shareholder. I did not see anything about controlling interest. Did they buy over 50% of assets? I hope this is true as it would be great news. There is a major difference between the two from a governance aspect.

 

[PeterA]

yes - one either controls something - or is a passenger sitting in teh back of the bus and enjoying the view..or not.

 

[carstenw]

Well... if this is indeed true, I suppose there will be both positive and negative sides to it. But is it true? Mamiya isn't public, but is held by the Cosmos Digital Imaging Company, as far as I recall, so the only way for Phase to take control would be to buy it from CDIC. Unless there is a public statement about this somewhere, I doubt that it happened.

If it did, the good thing is that Phase would stop floating around and betting on other companies. The bad thing is that Mamiya/Phase might go closed, which could hurt, among others, Leaf, which sells backs in combination with the Mamiya camera, marketed by the MAC Group.

Doug, do you have more detailed info?

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Well... if this is indeed true, I suppose there will be both positive and negative sides to it. But is it true? Mamiya isn't public, but is held by the Cosmos Digital Imaging Company, as far as I recall, so the only way for Phase to take control would be to buy it from CDIC. Unless there is a public statement about this somewhere, I doubt that it happened.

If it did, the good thing is that Phase would stop floating around and betting on other companies. The bad thing is that Mamiya/Phase might go closed, which could hurt, among others, Leaf, which sells backs in combination with the Mamiya camera, marketed by the MAC Group.

Doug, do you have more detailed info?

Without a lot of details, I can say that the "controlling stake" is indeed a literal phrase. We can put that to bed right away.

The release does state our intention to continue providing "open and upgradeable medium format systems". It would be hypocritical of us to close a system after being a resource for customers who were turned off by Hasselblad's strategies in that regard. I hope that we continue in the direction we have chosen thus far, and - at least according to the release - we are planning on doing so.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

 

[Howard Cubell]

Without a lot of details, I can say that the "controlling stake" is indeed a literal phrase. We can put that to bed right away.

The release does state our intention to continue providing "open and upgradeable medium format systems". It would be hypocritical of us to close a system after being a resource for customers who were turned off by Hasselblad's strategies in that regard. I hope that we continue in the direction we have chosen thus far, and - at least according to the release - we are planning on doing so.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

Come on Steve, Phase is hardly losing anything in keeping the Mamiya AFD "open" at this point. Who is going to buy a Hasselblad back to stick on an AFD these days? Very different in the other direction. Lots of buyers of Phase and Leaf backs have put those backs on H series cameras. Were it not for Hasselblad closing the H3, Phase would still be functioning as a corporate leech and would never have moved to develop camera systems. This seems to be turning out to be well for everyone. (I hope.) Lots of choices that would not otherwise exist but for the H3D.

 

[carstenw]

Howard, at the very least, Leaf backs on Mamiya bodies is a common combination.

In general, I think it was a good move by Phase One to do this. If Mamiya had tanked, Phase would have been in the position of fitting only no-longer-produced bodies, which despite the strength of the Phase backs probably would have proven impossible to survive.

The Mamiya body is at this point probably the least advanced body on the market, with certain known limitations, and needs dedicated backing to move the platform forward.

However, if body-building (haha) is not a profitable venture, as seems to be indicated by all the camera manufacturers with trouble, then I don't see the continued investment in open standards and publishing specs and protocols as being an attractive option for Phase. Essentially, once the platform is in good shape again (body brought up to date, leaf shutter lenses released, T/S lenses fixed), Phase will face the same predicament faced earlier by Hasselblad, namely that customers will invest in a Phase body, but go with a different back, thus cutting out the most profitable segment of Phase's income. Sinar has already made minor steps in the same direction with the eSprit 65 back.

Being more or less the last major open player on the market will not be sustainable, IMO. What we will likely see is a strategy whereby the new body (or perhaps an upcoming one) will be locked to Phase and Mamiya backs (or Mamiya backs might be discontinued; they are not as good as the rest anyway, and with Phase in-house...), and the AFDIII (or another "previous" model) will be left in the lineup as the "compatible" body, just like Hasselblad did with the H2. Then with time, that option too will be closed.

This was all quite predictable when Hasselblad went closed. The open ecosystem only works when every major player participates. By going closed, Hasselblad has essentially forced the entire MF segment to go closed, for exactly the same reasons: building cameras is not profitable, building backs is (still).

Sadly, this development really puts pressure on both Leaf and Sinar, who would end up with no modern 645 camera in their lineup. Perhaps something could change there. Or, perhaps Dalsa develops a large square sensor to give the Hy6 a little wind in the sails. That would be very interesting!

 

[jmvdigital]

I for one, as a Mamiya and Phase customer, am pleased to hear this news. Like Jack said, hopefully progress will move at a speedier rate and those of us using the Mamiya system will benefit greatly. If nothing else, it continues to spur competition.

 

[LJL]

Honestly, I am not sure what it means at this point. Mamiya clearly needs some help in refining the bodies for market, as well as getting better control over its lens manufacturing (where are those LS lenses anyway?). Will Phase be able to bring anything to the table for either of those elements? Sure, money, and maybe some marketing plus tech suggestion/advice, but will that make a big difference at this point?

As others have mentioned, this creates some added headaches for Leaf and Sinar in some ways, and for sure if Phase looks to "close up" the system a bit more with more dedicated backs for their bodies. No indication that is the plan, but this could be Phase's move to become more of a camera company, and not just a back and software company. Just do not know if this changes much in the game yet. And what about any supposed relationship with Leica and the S2? (Maybe that is just software licensing as with the M8, and nothing else.)

LJ

 

[Howard Cubell]

I for one, as a Mamiya and Phase customer, am pleased to hear this news. Like Jack said, hopefully progress will move at a speedier rate and those of us using the Mamiya system will benefit greatly. If nothing else, it continues to spur competition.

Of course, it's excellent news for all photographers interested in the vitality of the medium format digital market. The only thing I find surprising is that this took so long, because it is such a compelling need for Phase One.

 

[Steve Hendrix]

Of course, it's excellent news for all photographers interested in the vitality of the medium format digital market. The only thing I find surprising is that this took so long, because it is such a compelling need for Phase One.

If you've followed the news (and some of the rumors) of the past 12 months and take a look between the lines, you'll see there were a lot of options on the table for us. At the end, this was the most attractive option and the timing is right.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

 

[Don Libby]

It's a win win as from where I'm looking at it.

Phase will now not only have a larger role in camera body development but lens as well. Sweet idea from a back manufacture position to have a chance to not only develop the best back they can but be able to influence the development of the other parts that make up the system; lens and bodies. Like I said - win win.


Don

 

[woodyspedden]

Seems to me that the issue comes down to Phase's ability to fund new R&D and perhaps manufacturing capabilities.

The development of a new body system is certainly not trivial and if Mamiya had the funding to do so would already be underway with it. If Mamiya does or did not have the funding then that will have to come from Phase, and does Phase have those resources. After all they have been busy developing several new generations of Backs, software etc.

Although I am a Hassy user I would certainly want this to be a win win. None of us can imagine a world with only one major manufacturer so let's hope this partership, ownership, whatever proves to be successful. Only time will tell

Woody

 

[Graham Mitchell]

Well I have long been a fan of Phase products, but not the M645. I hope Mamiya brings out a completely new camera worthy of the back, and yes I would expect it to be a closed system.

 

[fotografz]

I think this could prove to be terrific.

As a Hasselblad user, I want as stiff of competition as possible so they continue to also develop their systems.

Closed verses open is viable only as a short term strategy IMO. As the now discontinued MF camera systems age and fall further behind in adaptable technologies, the field will become more and more narrow for selling backs with mounts dedicated to them. The market will slowly dry up ... not now certainly, but long term I would think.

Let's speculate, and say that the Mamiya camera now accelerates development ... the grip battery situation gets fixed using modern Lithium technologies ... maybe even incorporating a single battery one button "on", the more modular construction of the older Mamiya Pros comes back and offers waist level options, the lenses continue to improve optically while also using integrated mapped software tweaks, and AF gets better and better ... in general, why then would one opt for older discontinued solutions?

I would think it advantagious for Phase One to provide an integrated team where they control the entire imaging system from front lens element to reaf LCD screen. From what I can tell the backs don't need a whole lot of attention except firmware/software to coordinate with new camera technologies.

This really highlights the need for Leaf and Sinar to shore up the Hy6, which I doubt a single one of us would wish to disappear.

 

[carstenw]

Interestingly, Leaf and Sinar are the only (apart from the P65+) Dalsa MF sensor customers that I know of, so they would have a lot of leverage with Dalsa to get certain sensor developments done. With the Hy6/AFi being one common point, and the Dalsa sensor another, I could see that a large square sensor would make a lot of sense here. The price would have to be reasonable, so clearly there is no talk of a 25k 6x6 chip, but a 48x48 would seem to be a similar level of complexity to the P65+ and Aptus-II 10, and would open a new front in the digital MF battle.

 

[Graham Mitchell]

I could see that a large square sensor would make a lot of sense here.

I'd be curious to know why you think so!

In my opinion this platform needs a full 645 size sensor (42x56mm). This would match perfectly with a rotating back and WLF an 6x6 lenses. Hopefully a back with all the improvements of the Sinar eSprit65 but the larger sensor

I'm guessing that the cost would be similar to your hypothetical 48x48mm sensor, because the area of the chip is very similar, but >95% of photographers would prefer it as they could use the whole sensor rather than cropping down to 48x36mm for most of their work (this sensor size already exists and is cheaper to make).