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More Price Wars?

PeterA

Well-known member
"If it walks like a duck , look likes a duck and quacks like a duck - it probably is a duck"

If the only business model the MFD makers have is roll out another megapixel upgrade every 12 months and halve the value fo the previous top end camera every 12 months- good luck and bye bye.

This simple point has been made over and over again - but then again rocket scientists don't run these companies - a bunch of B grade marketing egos do. Dont worry about the brand name - the rabid clawing for dollars is disgusting. If you want to laugh- try pricing a step up ring from Hasselblad so you can use a Proshade on your lenses - three rings and a proshade for > $1000 Aussie + Taxes!! I mean what a BIG FAT JOKE

these companies are digging their own graves...

Sinar artec @ Aussie $20K body and one lens? - yeah sure ..you got My dollars - NOT.

Seriosuly FUNNY know reading that Phase One is LEADING the discount WAR ( the new high ground??) - and therfore ? umm therrefore what? exactly?

How about trying to buy a lens shade for a Rollie lens - MAN THAT is HILARIOUS close to a 700 bucks Aussie for a 180 lens shade? How about this? $700 for a freakin release cable for Hy6????


This is very very very sad and kinda darkly funny at the same time.

Or trade in your $100 flatbed you have propping up your old BBQ and you get a $3000 rebate on an X5 scanner - I mean - how about a FAIR price all the time - and NO GOUGING ALL THE TIME!!

These clowns in all MFD companies are totally clueless and could care less about their users.
 

yaya

Active member
close to a 700 bucks Aussie for a 180 lens shade? How about this? $700 for a freakin release cable for Hy6????
324$A and 0$A respectively for the AFi 180mm hood and cable release (converted from GBP so may be a few bucks more/ less).....
 

carstenw

Active member
Mamiya/Leaf DL-28: $14,999
Phase One P31+/Phase One Camera Kit: $16,990 (P31+ for $14,990 can go on any medium format camera)
Hasselblad H3DII-31 Kit: $14,995
Well, a kit for 15k vs. a back for 15k is not equal pricing. The camera plus 80mm lens is worth 2-3k+. I find Phase's prices high at the moment, given the competition.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
So much heated defense for a camera that doesn't even exist in the marketplace :ROTFL:

Anyone shot a job recently with the S2? Did you have the spread of lenses needed to pull off the job? :rolleyes:

The notion that anyone here knows what may or may not be coming from any of these companies is fanciful. Hasselblad has alway been tight lipped ... so they may, or may not be doing something. Same with Phase or Leaf.

I REALLY do not care if they all drop prices since it's a paper loss until you sell your current gear. If you're using it, then it has value, if not then it was a waste of money at any price.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Well, a kit for 15k vs. a back for 15k is not equal pricing. The camera plus 80mm lens is worth 2-3k+. I find Phase's prices high at the moment, given the competition.

The camera plus lens adds $2,000. I respectfully disagree with your high price assessment. Our price is not "high". Our solution is a preferred solution versus the competition for many, regardless of whether we are the price leader or slightly higher in price.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
 

dseelig

Member
I am looking forward to getting a 39 mp back for around 7 grand in a year or two. I am a full time pro, but I shoot sports, music and news to make a living a back would strickly be for my personal work so a luxury I am looking forward too unlees leica comes out with that full frame rangefinder. Keep going price wars.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
The camera plus lens adds $2,000. I respectfully disagree with your high price assessment. Our price is not "high". Our solution is a preferred solution versus the competition for many, regardless of whether we are the price leader or slightly higher in price.


Steve Hendrix=
Phase One
Steve, the P30+ package with the AFDIII and 80mm lens is $20,000 at Calumet. That's $5000 more than the Hassy H3DII-31 plus lens at $15,000. The price of the Phase P30+ strikes me as "high" on a relative basis. Of course, only the suckers probably pay the $20k for the P30+ Phamiya. Anyone who has the smarts to announce here or on LL that they are about to buy the Hassy can probably get the P30+ for the same price as the Hassy. The difference is that Hassy is up front with its pricing. With Phase, you have to play the game.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Steve, the P30+ package with the AFDIII and 80mm lens is $20,000 at Calumet.

Then Calumet is behind on updating their website. Calumet does not set the official Phase One pricing, Phase One does. And the pricing I posted is current:

*$14,990 - P30+
*$16,990 - P30+ Kit with camera/lens

We can't make a dealer update their website when they should (although I wish we could). :banghead:


Steve Hendrix
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well not sure about a game but a phone call to a dealer will get you a price. Phase and Hassy are different in the way they sell there gear. Phase is more dealer oriented and Hassy is both dealer and retail oriented. They just work differently. I don't consider one good or bad over the other. Also any price posted is somewhat worthless anyway. You want a real price get a quote in writing from any of them. We have to remember also when you buy a Hassy it has to come with a body , when you buy a Phase it does not so pricing will be different in those terms as well.
 

woodyspedden

New member
You obviously don't know Steve very well? Although not a personal acquaintance of mine, he's always (and I mean always) been incredibly helpful and forthright in all dealings with me (ie three years of my waffling about MF digital).

He stated nothing but the facts above.... PLUS made it clear who he works for.

What else do you need from him? (righteous indignation doesn't suite you very well)
Shelby
Actually I knew Steve well enough as I bought an H3DII-39 with the 28 and 100 lenses (in addition to the kit 80) from him in June of this year. Needless to say the competition was Phase and he was very pointed in his praise of the Hassy compared to the Phase. Of course this is to be expected as he represented Hassy and not Phase.) And of course he now reps Phase so Hassy is the competition. I would have expected Steve to take the high road and focus his commentaries on Phase positive attributes and not on his (now) analysis of Hassy weaknesses, as he sees them. Having spent over $30K with Steve (and his company PPR of Atlanta) and then watching the price reduction of almost 25% only weeks later without a word from either Steve or PPR I am simply no longer a fan!

I would never have commented about anything regarding Steve had he not dissed his old firm and by implication let down his former customers. i don't like the tactics and said so. End of story. I won't respond to any more posts as these things start to flame and I don't want to be a part of that.

I'm sorry if it is perceived that I said what I did about a guy who has many many friends and former customers here and elsewhere. I was part of that group as well.

Woody
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Okay lets put a hold on individual members on the forum. This is a area that has strong rules of engagement here on GetDPI. I DO NOT want this to get out of hand. Thanks Guy.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
If you're using it, then it has value, if not then it was a waste of money at any price.
Ouch! That one hit home. Damn....time to get the 503CWD out of the closet! No time to waste....my wife already suspects that what Marc just said about a "waste of money" is true! ;)

I still think it's a shame that Hasselblad hasn't dropped the price on the CFV back. I guess those of us in the V-series camp just don't show up on the "there's good money to be made here" radar anymore. Oh well, I'm glad I got mine when I did...even if I don't use it as often as I should.

Gary
Alaska
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
Actually I knew Steve well enough as I bought an H3DII-39 with the 28 and 100 lenses (in addition to the kit 80) from him in June of this year...[snip]....I'm sorry if it is perceived that I said what I did about a guy who has many many friends and former customers here and elsewhere. I was part of that group as well.

Woody
Gotcha Woody... I'm bowing out as well, as I obviously don't have much of a dog in this hunt...

Guy (and everyone else)... sorry to get OT and personal.

Over and out :eek:
 

carstenw

Active member
The camera plus lens adds $2,000. I respectfully disagree with your high price assessment. Our price is not "high". Our solution is a preferred solution versus the competition for many, regardless of whether we are the price leader or slightly higher in price.
Fair enough on chosen pricing, although at the 15k price point, the difference in value is the cost of an H3DII + HC 80, which are priced higher than the Mamiya camera kit.

Where the price difference really shows up is in refurbished and demo units, where the Phase prices are distinctly higher than Hasselblad's. A refurbished P30+ costs $3k more than a complete H3DII-31 kit, both from dealers, for example.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Ouch! That one hit home. Damn....time to get the 503CWD out of the closet! No time to waste....my wife already suspects that what Marc just said about a "waste of money" is true! ;)

I still think it's a shame that Hasselblad hasn't dropped the price on the CFV back. I guess those of us in the V-series camp just don't show up on the "there's good money to be made here" radar anymore. Oh well, I'm glad I got mine when I did...even if I don't use it as often as I should.

Gary
Alaska
Gary, I gotta agree with you ... again.

Hassey should've dropped the CFV price also. We both know it's a great back, and a wonderful addition for any V camera shooter. A $6K price point would drag in all kinds of new users.
But I fear what Guy says is true ... it won't lead to ancillary sales, so it has to be a profit center in itself. However, the 503CWD kit with Zeiss 40IF is a decent deal given how much that lens costs alone. I think the 16 meg square sensor will be the next victim, like the 22 meg that Kodak discontinued. A shame since those big pixels produce their own kind of magic.

As to value of using/shooting, it isn't frequency as much as what you do with it isn't it? I don't use the CFV nearly as much as my 35mm DSLRs or M8 ... or even the H3D-II/31. But when that's what I want creatively it's there ready to make images. :thumbup:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I am looking forward to getting a 39 mp back for around 7 grand in a year or two. I am a full time pro, but I shoot sports, music and news to make a living a back would strickly be for my personal work so a luxury I am looking forward too unlees leica comes out with that full frame rangefinder. Keep going price wars.
That's the rub isn't it? It really depends on priorities and needs.

Personally, my business priorities have changed dramatically in this rotten economy ... and my wedding business, which was more of a side-line before compared to commercial work, is now the main bread earner (thank God!). So something like a the Sony A900 became way more important than another MF digital back.

For sure, with my current business priorities, a FF Leica M9 would be far more attractive than adding a functionally redundant MF Leica S2 to my gear closet.
 

Quentin_Bargate

Well-known member
Right now I doubt the S2 is viable. I'll be surprised if it is released at all, or if it is, it will be at a lower than expected price. Its far too niche to secure volume sales at the prices I have seen.

The MF digital camera / back market is small even in good times. In a recession, its smaller. The Phase One buy-in to Mamiya is a survival strategy as much as anything, for both sides.

I've just been reading this, a brief and very intersesting hostory of Kodak digital cameras. Apparently they never made money for Kodak, and as we all know they ceased production of digital cameras with the DCS Pro SLR/n and c models several years ago. With 25mp digtal SLR's now available for not that much money, and no doubt more to come, I predict that in a few years time, the medium format digital market will have shrunk a lot further and will be populated by very specialised niche manufacturers.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Well not sure about a game but a phone call to a dealer will get you a price. Phase and Hassy are different in the way they sell there gear. Phase is more dealer oriented and Hassy is both dealer and retail oriented. They just work differently. I don't consider one good or bad over the other. Also any price posted is somewhat worthless anyway. You want a real price get a quote in writing from any of them. We have to remember also when you buy a Hassy it has to come with a body , when you buy a Phase it does not so pricing will be different in those terms as well.
I've not had very good luck in that regard Guy ... (I suspect you have more juice with dealers than I do ;) ) Certainly not from Hasselblad ... I've been searching for a simple 22 meg back for my H2F kit ... and a reconditioned older CFH/22 without the bigger LCD and improved sensor filter is $9,250. with seemingly no room to bargain ... that's tough to swallow when Hassey is selling brand new, full warranty H3D-II/31 Kits (sans 80/2.8 lens) with the improvements for a few K more.

I've also tried to secure a Phase back for my 503CW ... and the published refurb prices for V mount Phase one P25s seems to be set in stone.

Note to any Hassey dealer: a good deal on a good CF/22 for my H2F would be met with a smile and withdrawal from my fortress like money market account :)

 

fotografz

Well-known member
Right now I doubt the S2 is viable. I'll be surprised if it is released at all, or if it is, it will be at a lower than expected price. Its far too niche to secure volume sales at the prices I have seen.

The MF digital camera / back market is small even in good times. In a recession, its smaller. The Phase One buy-in to Mamiya is a survival strategy as much as anything, for both sides.

I've just been reading this, a brief and very interesting history of Kodak digital cameras. Apparently they never made money for Kodak, and as we all know they ceased production of digital cameras with the DCS Pro SLR/n and c models several years ago. With 25mp digital SLR's now available for not that much money, and no doubt more to come, I predict that in a few years time, the medium format digital market will have shrunk a lot further and will be populated by very specialized niche manufacturers.
I think that's an astute observation.

Here's a reality aspect of the recent pricing by all three main makers of digital backs that could well affect the S2:

Most shooters that need MFD already have some system in place to meet those needs ... especially Pros. What this pricing move has done is further reduced the value of what you already have on the used market. Think of it ... not long ago a new H3D-II/31 was around $25K, now it's $15K!

In effect, it makes swapping systems even LESS attractive no matter how emotionally attracted you may be to the siren song of the S2.

For me, selling off my H3D-II/31 would mean such a haircut as to leave me bald as a cue ball financially ... and for what? Occasionally the brain DOES kick in and take over as reality sets in. The ROI of my H3D-II/31 is in the using, most certainly not anything else. Fortunately, the camera does exactly what I bought it for and does it reliably and well ... right now that's all that really matters.

The ONLY thing on my wish list is a FF M9 ... that's the biggest need gap in digital photography today, and one I'd gladly pony up for.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I've not had very good luck in that regard Guy ... (I suspect you have more juice with dealers than I do ;) ) Certainly not from Hasselblad ... I've been searching for a simple 22 meg back for my H2F kit ... and a reconditioned older CFH/22 without the bigger LCD and improved sensor filter is $9,250. with seemingly no room to bargain ... that's tough to swallow when Hassey is selling brand new, full warranty H3D-II/31 Kits (sans 80/2.8 lens) with the improvements for a few K more.

I've also tried to secure a Phase back for my 503CW ... and the published refurb prices for V mount Phase one P25s seems to be set in stone.

Note to any Hassey dealer: a good deal on a good CF/22 for my H2F would be met with a smile and withdrawal from my fortress like money market account :)


I'm a little surprised about that. You would think those backs in the square format for the V would sell at a very low price point. Certainly not the newest format or back out there.
 
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