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More Price Wars?

fotografz

Well-known member
Hasselblad just introduced their Spring Promo with the H3D-II/31 kit at $14,995. (response to Mamiya/Leaf?) ... and the 31 kit sans the 80mm lens for $12,995. (second camera targeted at owners of 39 or 50 meg users?).

This should drive the price for nice used H3D-II/31 kits to $8 or 9K. which is in Canon and Nikon high meg pricing territory.

It will be interesting to see what the impact will be going into Summer.

Your thoughts?
 

carstenw

Active member
Hasselblad apparently is doing really well. I suppose they are still worried about competition or they wouldn't bother doing all this. My guess is that they did this to catch Phase One in a tight spot, i.e. without a truly competitive camera/lens lineup. Now is the time to strike against Phase, before all their plans hatch. I doubt any of this is aimed at Leica, although it also works there, of course. Now if only Hasselblad would paint their camera black, they would have the world in the palm of their hands :)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Carsten have to disagree this is squarely in Leica's face and the S2. They want people to get into the system any way they can. Than they have to buy Hassy glass. It's called a lose leader in grocery stores and this in my mind is squarely in Leica's face and want folks to get on board before Leica releases. Now there also jumping in at Phase no doubt as well, as they may announce something as well. Plus taking advantage of the Hy6 issue and leaf announcing with Mamiya some products. Hassy wants people in there door step.

I actually heard a story and ah screw it will tell it. Hassy overheard leica's S2 announcement back at photokinia and immediately dropped there prices. Frankly Hassy is pretty savy and i actually like there thinking on this stuff. No offense intended but sucker them in and they can't get out. That is good marketing and frankly Leica needs to start thinking on the same level NOW
 

jonoslack

Active member
Carsten have to disagree this is squarely in Leica's face and the S2. They want people to get into the system any way they can. Than they have to buy Hassy glass. It's called a lose leader in grocery stores and this in my mind is squarely in Leica's face and want folks to get on board before Leica releases. Now there also jumping in at Phase no doubt as well, as they may announce something as well. Plus taking advantage of the Hy6 issue and leaf announcing with Mamiya some products. Hassy wants people in there door step.

I actually heard a story and ah screw it will tell it. Hassy overheard leica's S2 announcement back at photokinia and immediately dropped there prices. Frankly Hassy is pretty savy and i actually like there thinking on this stuff. No offense intended but sucker them in and they can't get out. That is good marketing and frankly Leica needs to start thinking on the same level NOW
Hi Guy
I'm sure that it's pointing in both directions.
Still, I think that from the inside of MF looking out (like you), you get a different impression than from the outside looking (like me).

I think that Leica's marketplace (if it has one) is for people who have not embarked on MF yet, but would like to. From my point of view looking at Hassleblad (and even more so at Phase) is a complex and confusing world, plummeting prices might be tempting on one hand, but they're also frightening in that they imply your investment is going to evaporate. Added to which the cost of buying in to the system seems like the thin end of a very fat wedge.

The S2 looks entirely comprehensible - no more complex than swapping from one DSLR to another. Added to that Leica prices have generally held up pretty well.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
That maybe true but if there is a 5k difference than folks will scratch there heads if the Leica is so much more and hassy and others although complicated. The system is much bigger and they actually may save money and right now saving money is king. The Pro market is DEAD right now. Please trust me on this one. I actually have to call my phone to see if it is working. I can't begin to tell you how much revenue has just evaporated in the last 4 months. And that song is ringing load and clear with everyone i talk too in every type of business except collection agencies. Folks we are in the dumpster and getting out will certainly be tough and there will be many business that will NOT survive this downturn. Selling high end gear is going to be tough and leica's name will not mean much when there is no money.
 

arashm

Member
I see this as a positive move by Hassy.
I also have no problem believing that the H3D2-31 kit is going to be selling for $9,999.00 by August/ September.
I know this sounds controversial and I don't mean to offend anyone, but MF DB worlds main competitor is not other MF makers anymore; but the 5D2, I know one can argue Depth of field, look, 16 bit.... but at the end of the day if you shoot for Commerce there is a heck of a lot you can shoot with a tool like the 5D2.
One thing this recession has done is to a good extend kill print... Since start of this year, almost every one of my regular clients has done a "web" only campaign. I've gone from delivering ~100Mb files to 20Mb files.... There is a $30k - $100K savings right there, and I can't ever see these clients going back to print at the previous capacity.
So I think people at Hassy have a good grasp on the situation.
This pricing is also going to make guys like me who are heavy renters of MFDB but not owners to finally snap and get it in-house.
Of course just my humble opinion :)
am
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
And you are there goal to get guys like you in there house. Once your in you buy there system parts and that is what they are after and many folks looking at D3X, Sony A900 and 1dsMKIII to look at the entry price as competitive and get folks to jump up.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Doubt seriously that Hasselblad is in "survival mode" since they had a banner year in 2008. The tanking economy has opened up new opportunities to snatch more of the shrinking market for savvy marketers ... which is a sound strategy in down times ... build your slice of the pie even though the pie is getting smaller. Then when things rebound, the pie gets bigger along with your slice. Classic marketing 101.

This technology has been around awhile, and development costs probably have been recouped to a good degree ... just keep tweaking it with improved firmware/software ... which is exactly what Hasselblad has been doing.

We all should note that there isn't any promo on the 50 meg camera except the "move up guarantee" when the 60 launches.

I think this 31 promo is squarely aimed at beleaguered Pros in need of high meg abilities, but facing shrinking revenue ... and those considering a Canon 1DsMKII or D3X primarily for IQ only ... which is what their marketing communications seems to be implying.

If I didn't already have this camera, I'd be all over it in a NY heartbeat.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Well, I do understand everyone's points, and what do I know?

If I didn't already have this camera, I'd be all over it in a NY heartbeat.
But wouldn't you be thinking . . . If I wait another 3 months until the Leica actually does appear then it's likely to be even cheaper (maybe the $9000 am suggests).

The trouble with big discounts in tough times is that everyone thinks the next discount will be even bigger!
 

arashm

Member
You know it's funny
My number one attraction to MFDB is rarely mentioned here;
"Stable Tethered Shooting", 90% of what I shoot is tethered.
THe current Mac OSX usb tethering situation is absolutely cr*p...
am
 

arashm

Member
Jono and all
The $10K mark mentioned by me is just my guess... I have no insight, so PLEASE don't bank on it.
I was very excited about the S2, but honestly I've lost interest, there is no point in building up excitement and then not releasing product or prices. This I think is just about the worst marketing concept.
Announce it, get people wet and excited and then "stack it high and watch it fly".
I'm not going to hold out for a year for a purchase, or to find out that it's just too expensive with lenses to come next year.
Also the more I think about it, the more I think that Leica's idea of "economical or aggressive" is probably not in line with mine :ROTFL:
I would love to be proven wrong on this one. :thumbup:
so back to hassy and phase it is.
am
 

KeithL

Well-known member
There has never been a better time to buy MFD. There are plenty of barely used bargains to be had, often from official distributors.

I've recently bought an H3D11-22, essentially new (49 clicks!), direct from Hasselblad, with warranty and complete with all bits, and all for about the price of a D3x. I went for the 22 rather than the 31 to take full advantage of the 28mm lens and those wonderful 'fat' pixels. I seriously considered the D3x but just couldn't get past the p1ss poor viewfinder, the 3:2 format or the dreaded AA filter.

Couldn't be happier, feel like a pig in sh1t!
 

LJL

New member
As one of those guys that has been holding to the sidelines a bit longer, I have to say that this latest splash by Hassy does catch even more of my attention. I am at that point of replacing DSLR gear and have been churning that entire mess also. Have not seen anything new from Canon on their 1-series, which has been my bread and butter gear for some years. The Nikon stuff looks good, but switching will be rather costly. The Sony A900 has held my attention from its release, and find it more attractive as more folks shake it down (thanks, Marc and others for making all of this harder).

So, while the market for the images I (we) produce has changed dramatically, I am not convinced it will stay that way as things bottom out and start to recover. There may be a lot fewer slick mags and stuff in this new "austerity economy", but there will be more billboards and other "local" uses of images to promote things....think about more locally developed and distributed (small run) brochures and stuff. Starting to see that already, and folks that walk away from a seller with a nice piece of material in hand usually go back to them when ready to buy. Good images will be used, and although Internet marketing is very strong (read that as less demanding on image requirements for the most part), it still is not the only vehicle to reach the buyer. Can most things be shot with a DSLR? Sure, but not everything will look nearly as good. At least that is how I am seeing some of this coming through the smoke of this economic conflagration.

With that in mind, this latest shot by Hassy has moved me more toward that buying choice. I still love the S2 concept and what it promises, but I fear Leica still not getting it with respect to cost, and also taking them a lot longer to fill out their line-up of lenses and stuff that one may want to use. This is where Hassy is really starting to show its edge. That HTS device, though very pricey, suddenly looks more viable as one moves up, as does the rest of the lens line-up, which is quite complete, especially if they can get you in the door with a strong entry camera like the H3DII-31. This is already at the price point some of us are hoping Leica may hit with the S2, and this gets you into a complete system line that is ready to go, not promised several years out. Lots of glass in the secondary market already also. Hassy stuff works.....works well....and is a very complete system today. Anybody buying into it now would not be waiting for needed pieces or lenses. They would be able to get things fixed or rented out much more easily if needed. They are not dropping a new body or something into the market every couple of months, like Phase/Mamiya (at least not yet), nor are they keeping folks wondering if they will even be around, like the Hy-6.

So, long worded way of agreeing with some folks that this is a both a great temptation and a great entry point for some DSLR folks that have been waiting for the point to jump into MF. Personally, I may hold just a bit longer, but this looks to be a pretty decent siren to pull folks in.

LJ
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Welcome to the club Keith - you finally cracked! LOL happy shooting!

Prices are coming down in every area of consumer discretionary expenditure - thats what deflation is all about...prices are coming down because demand has fallen into a big black hole....

this is going to be one wild ride for the next 12-18 months guys....
 

stephengilbert

Active member
"The trouble with big discounts in tough times is that everyone thinks the next discount will be even bigger!"

This a description of the impact of price deflation on purchasing. People wait to buy, believing that the current price is just another step in a downward spiral. Why buy anything you don't need right away when it will be vailaible for less next month?
 

carstenw

Active member
Interesting that only the cheaper cameras are dropping in price. I wonder if Hasselblad is trying to move the entire range upscale in preparation for a battle with DSLRs and the Leica, i.e. drop the lowest models and move prices down everywhere? Dropping prices is one way of getting rid of stock.
 
S

Shelby Lewis

Guest
This pricing instability is killing me as I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger with MF digital... Guy, we need to talk, lol.
 
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