Lars
Active member
Yeah, this drawing from this page https://www.newport.com/store/genproduct.aspx?id=547470&lang=1033&Section=Drawing sure looks like a cube to me... kinda makes you wonder who ripped of who's design:
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- Thread starter Rethmeier
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ddk
Guest
This is an amusing thread. I wonder if you people felt the same if the cube was made/copied/modified by RSS, Kirk or any of the other respectable US/European companies knocking off AS designs. You're overreacting about a niche product with a very limited market, sold to those who wouldn't be able to or want to buy the AS Cube in the first place and even if some of them did want to, how much of a dent do you think this Korean product would make to the finances of AS. Yet everyone is happy to buy AS type plates and clamps from the known copy cats in large quantities without thinking about it, where do you think the bigger money money is?
Willem, I'm very curious about the quality of this product, it could be great if its manufactured right. At that price all you're doing is bypassing AS's distribution channels and retailers and you should be getting a product of equal quality when paying that much for it direct to the manufacturer, I bet you the Cube wouldn't cost any more if you could buy it direct. Please keep us posted.
Willem, I'm very curious about the quality of this product, it could be great if its manufactured right. At that price all you're doing is bypassing AS's distribution channels and retailers and you should be getting a product of equal quality when paying that much for it direct to the manufacturer, I bet you the Cube wouldn't cost any more if you could buy it direct. Please keep us posted.
i don't think the issue is whether or not you can make a goniometric mount, that has been i the public domain for many decades.
the issue is whether it is ethical to make an EXACT copy of someone else's product, regardless of relative pricing or relative company management. Let the Koreans make their own version, but a direct copy is bogus. It should be regarded like a copyright; how many of you would want your photos exactly copied and sold?
In NYC, the fake jeans suppliers get busted by cops with drawn weapons.
the issue is whether it is ethical to make an EXACT copy of someone else's product, regardless of relative pricing or relative company management. Let the Koreans make their own version, but a direct copy is bogus. It should be regarded like a copyright; how many of you would want your photos exactly copied and sold?
In NYC, the fake jeans suppliers get busted by cops with drawn weapons.
D
ddk
Guest
Only when they have fake labels!
In this case since no one actually has any facts and all assumptions are pointless. Who is copying who is unknown and does anyone here knows for a fact that royalties or licensing was or wasn't involved? You don't even know if the two products are same or not.
IMO its business and competition. If there is a product which sells good for a good price its just a question of time that a competitor will enter the market.
As long as the product is not protected by patents I personally wouldnt see a ethical problem to just use as much of the existing knowledge as possible.
Even if it is patented its just reality that a good product is not enough today, you have to try to constantly improve it and to be ahead 1 step in technology. Specially if you want to charge premium price.
Otherwise we would all have to drive mercedes cars, wear addidas sports shoes, eat burgers at Mac Donalds (who was first?), use Leica 35mm cameras, etc etc.
The other question is: how good is the "copy". I would be carefull as well and I dont know if I would like to spend that amount of money for an unknown product. (However I also wouldnt like to spend 2000 $ for a cube)
I received a PM from Martin Vogt from AS on the LL forum.
I apologized to him and I have removed my post.
People on this forum seem to be more understanding.
And yes,my Rolex is real,I wouldn't by a fake one either.
I will let you guys know,when I receive the Multiflex in the next couple of days.
Sorry that I stepped on so many toes!
Willem.
I apologized to him and I have removed my post.
People on this forum seem to be more understanding.
And yes,my Rolex is real,I wouldn't by a fake one either.
I will let you guys know,when I receive the Multiflex in the next couple of days.
Sorry that I stepped on so many toes!
Willem.
D
ddk
Guest
I really don't understand why you're apologizing, if there's an issue its between AS and the Korean company, nothing to do with consumers! Buying and reporting on competing products is your right and everyone else's here. If AS has an issue they should take it up with the Korean company and not you, this is very wrong of them to hassle the consumer and if anything, they need to apologize to you!!!!!
Patents are tricky and must be handled by lawyers and not by us on a bulletin board, AS has to prove that there has been a patent infringement in the first place otherwise they're opening themselves to reverse lawsuits. I have 11 patents myself and am saying this from experience, AS is in the wrong for contacting you!
Willem,
Now I am peeved at Arca. Like David has said, the fact they attempted to bully you may give you cause for action against them!
This is an internet community where we share experiences and opinions about gear we've used. You are not promoting anything as a private individual sharing positive thoughts about a product. You might be promoting if you bought 1,000 units of the possible copy and then offered it here commercially at a profit. But even then, that would require Arca to show proof they had a patent on the Cube and proceed legally against you. And last time I checked, A/S didn't even have a website with product information. Moreover, I bought one of their units, I have the original box and all paperwork (of which there wasn't any), and NOWHERE on any of that material is reference to a patent -- doesn't mean there isn't one, but it does leave the question...
Please feel free to share your experiences, good or bad, with the new head when it arrives, including your experiences with the company sales, service and delivery. I suspect we'd all appreciate detailed photos and feedback after you've had a chance to run it through its paces.
:thumbs:
PS: And Mr. Vogt, if you are reading this tell your company it's time for them to get into the 21st century and get a real website up where you can share product and corporate information properly, so we the consumer know what your side of the story is... And don't get me wrong, I am a satisfied user of your Cube and have recommended it to several people. But I resent the fact you have apparently threatened a private individual for sharing his opinion about an alternate product...
Now I am peeved at Arca. Like David has said, the fact they attempted to bully you may give you cause for action against them!
This is an internet community where we share experiences and opinions about gear we've used. You are not promoting anything as a private individual sharing positive thoughts about a product. You might be promoting if you bought 1,000 units of the possible copy and then offered it here commercially at a profit. But even then, that would require Arca to show proof they had a patent on the Cube and proceed legally against you. And last time I checked, A/S didn't even have a website with product information. Moreover, I bought one of their units, I have the original box and all paperwork (of which there wasn't any), and NOWHERE on any of that material is reference to a patent -- doesn't mean there isn't one, but it does leave the question...
Please feel free to share your experiences, good or bad, with the new head when it arrives, including your experiences with the company sales, service and delivery. I suspect we'd all appreciate detailed photos and feedback after you've had a chance to run it through its paces.
:thumbs:
PS: And Mr. Vogt, if you are reading this tell your company it's time for them to get into the 21st century and get a real website up where you can share product and corporate information properly, so we the consumer know what your side of the story is... And don't get me wrong, I am a satisfied user of your Cube and have recommended it to several people. But I resent the fact you have apparently threatened a private individual for sharing his opinion about an alternate product...
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
This is a AS issue and has nothing to do with a enduser PERIOD. You have the right to buy anything your heart wants that is on the market. I understand copyright infringement and patents very well but this is NOT a end user issue. I do agree with John though and if it is a patent infringement than guns drawn but not at you but at the company making it from AS. Buyers are not responsible for this issue, it very well maybe there decision not to buy a copy and such and that is also there decision no question. But that is different than a company to company patent infringement , we are not responsible for that as a buyer. Nowhere is it said that AS is even filled a patent infringement against these folks. So how are we to know this.
kdphotography
Well-known member
Rather than try to "hush" Willem up (Arca Swiss obviously saw his thread comments either here or over at LL), I'd rather Arca respond/reply on the threads if they really feel there is an issue that they would like end-users/consumers to be aware of....
Otherwise, it's a free market, and if the consumer can access it, let the market determine what is the best product for them individually..... It does not sound like any court has issued a stay/TRO type order to stop sales of the clam....
As a side note, Arca apparently has either horrible customer service or an apparent severe apathy towards consumers. I know Capture Integration made several requests for the Cube (yup---a real one!) and Arca apparently didn't think well enough to provide one to a dealer to sell.....
Otherwise, it's a free market, and if the consumer can access it, let the market determine what is the best product for them individually..... It does not sound like any court has issued a stay/TRO type order to stop sales of the clam....
As a side note, Arca apparently has either horrible customer service or an apparent severe apathy towards consumers. I know Capture Integration made several requests for the Cube (yup---a real one!) and Arca apparently didn't think well enough to provide one to a dealer to sell.....
This head is propably as well manufactured as the Arca, they propably didn't cut costs in material, education, machines or QC and propably it's design similarity is just a coincidence. Propably...
But is that very likely?
Without making it a discussion about politics, ethics or Swiss vs. Korean engineering/manufacturing standards these are facts that affect the product and therefore the user.
I know Swiss and I've seen many of their manufacturing facilities as well as the very similar south-German facilities. I've worked for a company which did both, production in Germany and Korea.
To make a long story short: entirely different history, philosophy and ecological/social standards - the company used Koreans as cheaper workers to enter the Asian market but of course the German production had to introduce new productions and solve problems...
Just one example: Swiss/German workers in production are usually educated over many years in certain technical tasks (I'm not talking about engineers) to maintain complex machines and react to problems and discuss them with production/R&D-engineers, in Korea we had to use simpler production lines with more manual work. Don't get me wrong, the Korean engineers I've met were interested and motivated (I've never met the workers) but they were never more than a cheap alternative and "pressure tool" ("see how happy they are with their wages"...) for the management. I don't think Arca would offshore production to Korea (when Multiflex would gain market shares from Arca) but the long-term effects wouldn't be positive.
"...has nothing to do with a enduser..."
I'll have to disagree, we're living in a "consumer-world" ruled not by politicians or multinational companies but consumers! We not only buy products, we buy innovation, design, ecological & social standards. What we don't buy (mostly one billion mid-class consumers) isn't produced! We are seduced by a cheap copies? We get more of them!
This world is already full of cheap crap, stuff we throw away on a daily basis, that are not even worth the low prices we paid. It's enough for me!
But is that very likely?
Without making it a discussion about politics, ethics or Swiss vs. Korean engineering/manufacturing standards these are facts that affect the product and therefore the user.
I know Swiss and I've seen many of their manufacturing facilities as well as the very similar south-German facilities. I've worked for a company which did both, production in Germany and Korea.
To make a long story short: entirely different history, philosophy and ecological/social standards - the company used Koreans as cheaper workers to enter the Asian market but of course the German production had to introduce new productions and solve problems...
Just one example: Swiss/German workers in production are usually educated over many years in certain technical tasks (I'm not talking about engineers) to maintain complex machines and react to problems and discuss them with production/R&D-engineers, in Korea we had to use simpler production lines with more manual work. Don't get me wrong, the Korean engineers I've met were interested and motivated (I've never met the workers) but they were never more than a cheap alternative and "pressure tool" ("see how happy they are with their wages"...) for the management. I don't think Arca would offshore production to Korea (when Multiflex would gain market shares from Arca) but the long-term effects wouldn't be positive.
"...has nothing to do with a enduser..."
I'll have to disagree, we're living in a "consumer-world" ruled not by politicians or multinational companies but consumers! We not only buy products, we buy innovation, design, ecological & social standards. What we don't buy (mostly one billion mid-class consumers) isn't produced! We are seduced by a cheap copies? We get more of them!
This world is already full of cheap crap, stuff we throw away on a daily basis, that are not even worth the low prices we paid. It's enough for me!
Graham Mitchell
New member
I think the question is, should anyone be promoting a product which is in breach of IP law, even if you are not breaking the law by buying it? It might be legal but is it ethical? (I don't mean this as an attack on Willem because I doubt he did it intentionally)
Lars
Active member
I've seen nothing in this thread that indicates that any intellectual property was illegally copied - there is no law per se against copying an unprotected design. So I disagree, that's not the core issue here but rather what ethical standard we have as consumers and how willing we are to open up our wallets to adhere to that standard.
Graham Mitchell
New member
Lars, please note I made no reference to this case - I was referring to the general principle. I'm still waiting to find out if AS holds a patent here.
Graham Mitchell
New member
Ok, it seems the Cube is patented in some way. See:
http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/Media/PressCubeEngl.pdf
"The ARCA-SWISS C1 cube with its unique patented design makes possible, a level of hitherto never reached, secure and precise camera positioning through precision workmanship and variety of movements. "
http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/Media/PressCubeEngl.pdf
"The ARCA-SWISS C1 cube with its unique patented design makes possible, a level of hitherto never reached, secure and precise camera positioning through precision workmanship and variety of movements. "
S
smei_ch
Guest
Well, this is a promo text.
It would be good to know the patent number and where it was issued. So you can find out what is protected and in which part of the world.
There is still the goniometer patent in the US.
It would be good to know the patent number and where it was issued. So you can find out what is protected and in which part of the world.
There is still the goniometer patent in the US.
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