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[Paratom]

Steve,
maybe I have used the wrong word (ripping off)-I just meant they take too much money for it.
If it is patented (which I dont know) and if it is illegal I wont say that it is ok. It is not.
Maybe I have less emotion in this discussion because I run a german mechenical engineering company and we have to deal with things like this.
I can tell that even premium brands like Mercedes for example dont care if something is a copy or not as long as it is legal. They make decisions based on numbers.
We often develop/engineer concepts while bidding for a project and our customers (german premium car brands) just take the best from each concept, transfer that to each bidder and then take the one who does offer to realize this concept for the smallest amount of money.
If you explain a slightly higher price that you manufacture in Germany they will tell you "thats nice from you but we can not give you any credit for this)

We hold various patents with our company but we do know that a patent is no guarantee that something gets not copied. I have learned, that as a "premium supplier" one has to be one step ahead in Know-how and Technics to be able to stay in this position.


One more thought:
If the "copy-cube" is as good as the original, than I would think Arca Swiss charges quite a "good" markup (good for Arc Swiss, not good for us, the customers). So in the end some competition will be good to reach a more realistic price.
If the "copy cube" is not as good as the original Arca Swiss should not get any problem.

I dont think a good idea gives someone the right to charge life time premium price. It should give you an advantage for some time, but not forever.
(Good thing patents are only valid for max. 20 years)

"[T]he price for the cube is ripping off customers IMO?" Does that mean that you are opposed to theft, to "ripping off"? If so, how is it okay to steal AS's design?

I find this discussion very interesting. People who think it's okay to buy the clone, that they have no obligation to avoid a copied product whether or not it violates someone else's legal rights. (I don't know whether it does; I'm just a lawyer.) Yet these same people feel okay about defending their rights vis-a-vis photos or designs they've created.

Pick one: (1) I have no problem with buying the copy, whatever the legailty of its production, and have no problem with people taking what I've created for their own use without paying me, or (2) I don't want to be ripped off, and won't buy from someone who's ripping someone else off.

For what it's worth, the purpose of the patent and copyright laws is to encourage people to create by offering them legal protection for a period of time, by giving them a monopoly on their creation. That's why patented drugs cost more than generics. (Now there's something you might complain about: medicine might be even more essential than a geared tripod head.)

Steve

 

[Paratom]

I dont think that we as customers should have to check if patents are violenced or not.

 

[carstenw]

True, Tom, but if Arca-Swiss made a press release saying that their patent had been violated, and that they are suing the Korean company, then you would know. What would be your position then?

 

[shakeshuck]

"(2) I don't want to be ripped off, and won't buy from someone who's ripping someone else off.

Steve

But I'm happy to rip all my customers off by adding an exclusivity premium.

If I sold a 10c item for $500 once, they'd probably say my buyer was an unlucky mug.
If I sold 1000 more of them I'd probably get called a scammer and get a jail term.

Yet the big boys get away with this sort of thing on a daily basis...

 

[Paratom]

True, Tom, but if Arca-Swiss made a press release saying that their patent had been violated, and that they are suing the Korean company, then you would know. What would be your position then?

Is this the case?

I personally wouldnt buy it.

I wouldnt by a copy for 1000$ anyways ( as long as I wouldnt be sure it offered good quality).
I also wouldnt buy a cube for 2000$ though ( It is probably a very good product, but (so far) I just can not justify that amount of money for a tripod head)

 

[Rethmeier]

Had a play with it today(Multiflex)
It is very well made and there no play etc in the movements.
If only I had the Cube to compare it with.
Maybe that's the AS problem.They compared it(Multiflex) with theirs,and realized it's as good?
Best,
Willem.

 

[kdphotography]

Steve,

One more thought:
If the "copy-cube" is as good as the original, than I would think Arca Swiss charges quite a "good" markup (good for Arc Swiss, not good for us, the customers). So in the end some competition will be good to reach a more realistic price.
If the "copy cube" is not as good as the original Arca Swiss should not get any problem.

I dont think a good idea gives someone the right to charge life time premium price. It should give you an advantage for some time, but not forever.
(Good thing patents are only valid for max. 20 years)

This makes the most sense to me. And that is what I see has happened (at least in our little GetDPI world). I know that Jack bought his Cube at a much more attractive price point. There simply was no comparable product on the market. And even at that entry level years ago, the Cube was considered expensive to most. And then like stock, the Cube price went up, up, up. It's $2400 at B&H.

Now faced with a comparable product in the Multiflex by Photo Clam [I](regardless of any potential legal claims)[/I] the market should dictate price point based on quality, features, customer service, etc. Facing comparable products in the market is a known eventual expectation, and any company that just sits on its a** basking in the laurels of its old products is a sitting target. You either make improvements, make new products, or offer better enticements (price?) to stay competitive. (Coach Leather case/purse probably ain't gonna cut it)

If the Photo Clam Multiflex is competitive on a quality level, the Cube has some serious competition. Arca is almost nonresponsive on the customer service front, to the point of almost complete apathy. I just emailed PhotoClam last night for information, and had a polite email waiting for me this morning. They do have a US distributor in ReallyBigCameras. Photo Clam seems to have the customer service part down....

We need a thorough review, Willem! (with specs compared!)

ken

 

[Guy Mancuso]

You know it's funny we sit here and complain about MF prices and that they are too high and all that and that good competition will bring prices in line to what we may think is good pricing. This seems to fall on those same lines. The patent stuff is a side issue and that is between them and if this product turns out to be good than the user has a nice option. Are we not all looking for options when we purchase anything. I also agree the Cube is way overpriced and reason I have not made that purchase myself. Of course that is all relative to your belief's in what is a good value or not.

 

[Dale Allyn]

The currency exchange rate was brought up earlier in this thread, as being responsible for the price hike of the Cube. I can't recall exactly when the price jumped, but it seems like it was not that long ago – a few years maybe? Maybe less?

I work in a field where exchange rates can make or break the profitability of some transactions. One has to do a bit of forecasting, averaging, hedging and gambling to succeed. That being said, on this date in 2006 the U.S. dollar vs. the Euro exchanged at only a 9% difference from today. (Similar in 2005.) The dollar has certainly been weak against the Euro during the past few years, but are we to assume that the Cube was grossly underpriced at $1,300-$1,400? Or are we to assume that A-S was doing OK with it then, but found that those buying it were mostly the well-heeled, and with the recent boom in MF (prior to the economy dumping) they could "seize the moment" and raise the price drastically?

If their number of units manufactured is super small, and if they're made in expensive facilities, one could understand a high manufacturing cost. But if they're making even a reasonable number of units their cost per unit should be somewhat controllable.

If I were making decisions at A-S I would be looking at my real costs, and recognizing that I enjoyed a bit of a "hay day" making substantial profits without competition, but now adjust prices to stay competitive and keep customers.

Yes, there is a question as to what is patented, what is fair, etc., but those points aside, A-S has some recalculating to do. If I were them I would be placing a higher value on my customers and what is in their best interests so that I can keep them and gain more customers.

Cheers

 

[stephengilbert]

No more comments on the Cube/Clone debate, but have you noticed that prices go up when the exchange rate changes, but they don't go back down when the rate goes the other way? The Euro climbed quite high versus the dollar last year, which might explain the Cube going up to $2400, but it has since fallen quite a bit. I don't recall any price drops reflecting the downward movement of the Euro.

 

[Dale Allyn]

Steve, that was sort of part of my point too.

I want A-S to succeed. They have nice products. But companies must be agile these days, as well as offer either great support or great prices, preferably both. To me, "great prices" can simply mean "good value" and does not need to be "cheap". Customer service, attitude towards customers, etc. are worth a lot to me. Some companies get this, others don't.

I would love to see A-S re-evaluate their pricing on the Cube. Those who want the "Clam" for less money can buy it (assuming the legal green light, etc), those who prefer the Cube at a premium can buy that one. But those patronizing A-S by buying the Cube should not be left to feel that they're paying a super-premium that isn't justified by some level of quality and customer care, corporate attitude, etc.

Just my naive 2 cents...

 

[carbonmetrictree]

I hate to put gasoline on the fire.

But I have to question Arca Swiss' quality standards vs any other company making these heads. I just purchased a C1 that was a whole degree off on the longitudinal axis. It seems that the tarnished and chipped, bubble levels were not installed level. and to top it off, the quick release plate was also not level. After purchasing a $2800 head, you would think that a "precision" company would at least have everything leveled- maybe the Photoclam is more accurate than this head.

And, to make matters even worse, I have a friend who also has the same issue. I can't return this head for a new one from B&H because of their return policy, and I doubt that Arca Swiss will replace my chipped bubble levels and correct the head for proper parallelism within an accepted time frame for servicing (I will be emailing them). The authorized repair center in the U.S. said that it would take months for the head to get back to me if I were to send it to France directly. This is surprising when Alpa, an even smaller company. can repair my camera with a one and a half week turn around time from Switzerland.

 

[ericstaud]

I don't get all the assumptions about fair markup or value here. Should any company only be allowed to charge a 30% over cost markup on products? This is not how the world works.

How much does it cost to mine and polish a one carrot diamond? How much do they sell it for?

How much does it cost to make an ipod?

Do the $400.00 jeans everyone here in L.A. wears everyday cost more to make than the $50.00 jeans people in Lincoln Nebraska wear?

It's a little astonishing to me that here we have photographers selling fine art prints and images for advertising who have no notion about pricing, branding, value. Why should one landscape photographer here be selling prints for $200.00 while another sells them for $2,000.00. Does it cost the second photographer that much more to make the print and take the image? Is this discussion really happening?

In the film industry you spend $500,000.00 on a set of prime lenses for your camera.

Here is a $1300.00 lens shade: http://www.filmtools.com/arri-lmb-5-matte-box.html

I think this is a $3000.00 quick release plate: http://www.filmtools.com/arri-338350-338352-digi-cine-baseplate.html

I found this tripod head used on the internet for $25,000.00... the same price as my Prius: http://www.arri.de/camera/accessories/support_systems/arrihead_2.html

Would anyone like to argue how fair pricing is with so many other things in life? T-shirts? Housing prices? $130.00 a month cell phone bill for the iPhone?

 

[Dale Allyn]

I can't (and wouldn't) speak for others, but my posts did not suggest limits on profit. Not at all. My point was that a company makes choices with regards to pricing and what the market will bear. If a product is good (i.e. desirable), but appears to be priced with lots of room for competitors to enter the market and carve out some business then this will happen. It occurs in all industries.

Sometimes the competitors make something "similar" and sometimes they simply copy directly. The latter seems to occur more often in the past decade or two, or at least it seems that way as I see the copies in southeast Asia. This is why any company must work to protect their market-share through the many means available to them, such as: quality, innovation, pricing, customer service (which builds loyalty), etc. It's not good enough to simply come up with a design nowadays and expect that people will just pay through the nose, even if the service is so-so, customer relations are feeble, delivery times are unbearable, etc. In today's world, one's product is going to get mimicked, emulated, or even directly copied.

My rant here is not addressing what is right or wrong, as it has little to do with what will become of a company's market share if the company is not watching all of the elements of today's business world. "Right or wrong" factor-in certainly, but it's not the only tool that a company should use to protect their product line and market position.

 

[ericstaud]

Also, aren't the idiots here Photo Clam? They should make a great web site, make more beautiful pictures, get the head in the hands of a few "name" photographers, and then sell the thing for $2,000.00 USD. Why would anyone undercut their competitor by more than 10% or 20% to get the business, especially when having good pictures, a great website, good customer service, and worldwide distribution seems entirely within their grasp? I'm sitting here with Gordon Ramsey on the TV running around yelling at the restaurant owners and chefs he's helping to fix their poorly run businesses and I think that either of the two companies being discussed here are ripe for this kind transformation. Neither seems any better run than the other.

 

[carbonmetrictree]

I think companies and even ourselves could learn a bit from Kitchen Nightmares.

 

[Rethmeier]

http://www.photoclam.com/

http://www.tripodballhead.com/searc...d-max=2010-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max-results=8

Scroll to the bottom for the Multiflex.

At least they have a website,where's the AS one?

 

[carstenw]

Gah, it just gets worse and worse. On that second page, I see a Wembley Sidekick, and Arca-Swiss B1 and the Cube. Do they do *anything* original??? Gawd, that bothers me to threads!

 

[FromJapan]

I just emailed PhotoClam last night for information, and had a polite email waiting for me this morning. They do have a US distributor in ReallyBigCameras.
ken

As I wrote earlier, ReallyBigCameras does not carry the PhotoClam MultiFlex, though they do carry the ballheads.

Pricing and competitiveness: In view cameras, A/S competes with Sinar and Linhof at the top end. Their new pancake cameras go head on with Sinar, Alpa, Cambo, Silvestri and Horseman. Ballheads and clamps, they have a zillion competitors. All of these products are priced competitively, though they're all at the high end. Does anyone know whether any of their other products saw similar price increases over the same period? Managing exchange rate fluctuations would not be anything new for A/S, given that it is basically an export oriented company.

Cheers,
Kumar

 

[Rethmeier]

Well said Kumar.
The Sinar P and the Arca Monolith are very similar in design etc.

Anyway,now I have the Multiflex in my hand,I can't see why I have to pay another
$1400 USD,to get the same result in my images.

Best,

Willem.