Dale Allyn
New member
Willem, can you post some photos of your Multiflex? They don't need to be catalogue quality shots, just shots that show us a production sample, as opposed to product shots on a company website.
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kdphotography
Well-known member
Following is the email they sent to me...probably confusion in communicating in engrish, but it sounded like Really Big Cameras woud distribute the Multiflex too....but final language looks more like a direct sale. In retrospect, I'm going to hold off from considering either product and buy other toys....
Admin note: Ken requested I remove the Photo Clam email because he got an email from them requesting that. This is an extremely weird situation, but I have complied with the request(s)...
He doesn't have the MultiFlex in stock, because he doesn't carry it.Following is the email they sent to me...probably confusion in communicating in engrish, but it sounded like Really Big Cameras woud distribute the Multiflex too....but final language looks more like a direct sale. In retrospect, I'm going to hold off from considering either product and buy other toys....
Dear Ken, * I reply your email few times but your mail box can't accept ours so i try to send the reply with this email. i hope it works this time.
Thank you for your interest our MultiFlex head.
We have a distributor for our ballheads and camera plate in US but he doesn't have MultiFlex in stock.
Sukue
Kumar
shakeshuck
Member
Greed, Greed, Greed.
I'm not sure if this post is for or against my point of view...
If you can't see what's wrong with a $400 pair of jeans, I'm obviously wasting my time in this debate.
This is what makes me happy to be a misanthrope.
Lars
Active member
Actually, that's just a matte box. you need to spend a few thousand more on accessories. :ROTFL:
http://www.filmtools.com/arri-lmb-5-matte-boxes.html
carstenw
Active member
It is possible that the MultiClam may only be sold in certain parts of the world, due to licensing or patent issues. In that case the offer to sell to Ken would not be something they would want public. This theory would support some comments made about this situation on LL, in an earlier Cube thread.
Eric, IMO its not so much about "fair" markup, but about high markup. Which is fine for me, but if you have a high markup and people pay it - than you do not have to surprized if competition will appear sooner or later.
And yes, as a customer I prefer low markup compared to high markup.
As a busioness man I prefer high markup as long and as far as I can sell it. The bad thing is that in my business (engineering and machinery for automotive) there is not really any chance for high markup any more.
As a user I am happy about every competition in the photo-gear world, however I am also willing to pay a fair price for a good product and a good service.
And yes, as a customer I prefer low markup compared to high markup.
As a busioness man I prefer high markup as long and as far as I can sell it. The bad thing is that in my business (engineering and machinery for automotive) there is not really any chance for high markup any more.
As a user I am happy about every competition in the photo-gear world, however I am also willing to pay a fair price for a good product and a good service.
Graham Mitchell
New member
+1
And did you notice that they call themselves an 'innovative' company? :ROTFL:
If I were a spotty 13yo kid, I would know how to take out their website and freeze their bank accounts from my bedroom with a few keystrokes, all while wearing my Superman outfit of course.
Hi :angel:
It would be appropriate to bring back correctness:
Is the Arca and the Korean cubes complete identical? Nope, not on photos posted. Or - as comparison - could one rather argue that Arca-Swiss stole the idea for the ballhead from someone else???
My ballhead is a Markins M10, see http://markins.com/. Markins makes arguably the very best ballheads available, period - MADE IN SOUTH KOREA. Look at their weights compared to Arca and others. Clamping force is rock solid.
When recommending a friend to buy a smaller Foba ballhead the other year, in same store they had KangRinpoche. That was first time I saw them. They were just as good if not better. Kang Rinpoche is MADE IN CHINA. She bought the KangRinpoch per my recommendation.
Quality AND price matter. :salute:
When buying my large format camera I looked at Ebony, then compared to Shen-Hao. The Shen-Hao won hands down. Superb service at their shop in Shanghai. Ebony is not available in any shop here in Hong Kong or Shanghai where I also visit often. So... why should I buy Ebony???? - Which is more expensive also. Not to mention additional parts, or if I needed repair...
If the Korean cube have any inspiration from the Markins it could be that it is far superb... and in fact beats the Arca hands down...
Truth is truth. Perhaps Swiss, Japanese etc products are too expensive... and not the quality they are rumored to be... (at least that is my experience).
Regards
Anders
My review will be up soon of the amazing Multiflex.
After reading all these post and yes I'm proud that I'm #132, I think it's worth it.
I will loose internet buddies over this,however I do believe in a fair market place.
If the Multiflex was offered @ $ 500 USD than I would have a problem.
The current US price for the Cube should still be $1400 to be competitive.
Market fluctations or not.
Best,
Willem.
After reading all these post and yes I'm proud that I'm #132, I think it's worth it.
I will loose internet buddies over this,however I do believe in a fair market place.
If the Multiflex was offered @ $ 500 USD than I would have a problem.
The current US price for the Cube should still be $1400 to be competitive.
Market fluctations or not.
Best,
Willem.
Lars
Active member
Anders has an interesting point here - the new Ebony 6x17 model sells for 7175 pounds at Robert White. The corresponding Shen Hao sells at the same dealer for 1350 pounds. Though I really appreciate the build quality of my Ebony cameras, this price difference is too large to ignore. It's easy to dismiss the Shen Hao by assuming that the price difference is related to quality - Anders' statement about Shen Hao tells otherwise.
Lars
Active member
In software we do this all the time
it's called "shameless copy". If you can't protect your ideas they are up for grabs that's how innovation proceeds.shakeshuck
Member
You do have to remember that not everyone is an engineer and 'quality' is subjective. No offense meant Anders, your observations may be 100% accurate - I have no experience of any of the items being discussed - but not everyone sees things the same way.
Having said that, as Lars points out there would have to be an incredible amount of difference in the Ebony's favour to warrant a £5000+ premium.
http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/Media/monoball.pdf
That's a brochure from Arca, please look at the pictures closely, especially the cube and compare it to pictures from our "innovative" friend...
Look at the details of the design - I think I know why this company doesn't enter the German/Swiss-market...
Most of you are professional photographers, so just imagine somebody copies your pictures and sells them for half the price - not because he is working more efficient, just because he is using cheaper equipment, doens't have to think about much about lighting/framing (you already did) and selling it for half the price is just his business-concept...
I'm a mechanical engineer and even I need some time to judge mechanical quality in detail. Putting a Swiss-technician in front of a sophisticated CNC-machining-center costs about 100€/hour (wage + machine + tools...) and according to Arca it takes about 8h to machine/assemble the cube which makes 800€ + material + R&D...
Why is the Photoclam cheaper? We don't really know unless we could see the workshops in detail but we can make pretty reasonable assumptions based on thousands of those companies in the business:
- nearly no R&D (just reverse engineering of the Arca)
- lower enviromental standards
- lower social standards (a Swiss "Zerspanungstechniker" is paid at least 2-3times better)
but of course also the manufacturing itself:
- using simpler details
- cheaper/less strong Al- and brass-alloys (tools are cheaper)
- higher tolerances
- less rigid QC
And no, most likely you're not able to see any of these things, not after using it for many, many years.
Quality and engineering like the Arca Cube have become rare, do we really want lose even this? It's a strange company, not even having a website and it's not very communicative either - I've never claimed that - but it's engineering.
I'm sorry that I'll have to come up with these things over and over again, but whole industries died because of things like that!
The Swiss for example had the most advanced watch/fine-mechanical/micro-mechatronics of the world with over 70000 highly trained employees. They were crushed by "cool" Asian plastic watches. But they were lucky, people realized that the quality is worth the price and Nicholas Hayek (chief of Swatch) saved technology, suppliers and thousands of jobs against short-sighted business- and marketing-people until that happened.
How? He was long-sighted, he believed in the Swiss (propably because he isn't born Swiss!?) and their skills instead of just comparing wages... The engineers realized that they could built also plastic-quartz-watches more efficiently (the Japanese needed 150 parts, they only 30) and within a few years they became the market leader again.
But that's a rare case, besides superior technology we have to fight with less and less quality in consumer-electronics, clothes, cars...
I'll stop here, I could write for hours - but who would read that ;-) But I'll hope that you get the point, a basic understanding besides your point of view. Just like your client doesn't appretiates every aspect of your work instantly and say's "that's pretty expensive for a few pictures I could have shot myself"...
I don't know "Markin"-heads - what do they do better than Arca? Do they have an aspheric ball?
That's a brochure from Arca, please look at the pictures closely, especially the cube and compare it to pictures from our "innovative" friend...
Look at the details of the design - I think I know why this company doesn't enter the German/Swiss-market...
Most of you are professional photographers, so just imagine somebody copies your pictures and sells them for half the price - not because he is working more efficient, just because he is using cheaper equipment, doens't have to think about much about lighting/framing (you already did) and selling it for half the price is just his business-concept...
I'm a mechanical engineer and even I need some time to judge mechanical quality in detail. Putting a Swiss-technician in front of a sophisticated CNC-machining-center costs about 100€/hour (wage + machine + tools...) and according to Arca it takes about 8h to machine/assemble the cube which makes 800€ + material + R&D...
Why is the Photoclam cheaper? We don't really know unless we could see the workshops in detail but we can make pretty reasonable assumptions based on thousands of those companies in the business:
- nearly no R&D (just reverse engineering of the Arca)
- lower enviromental standards
- lower social standards (a Swiss "Zerspanungstechniker" is paid at least 2-3times better)
but of course also the manufacturing itself:
- using simpler details
- cheaper/less strong Al- and brass-alloys (tools are cheaper)
- higher tolerances
- less rigid QC
And no, most likely you're not able to see any of these things, not after using it for many, many years.
Quality and engineering like the Arca Cube have become rare, do we really want lose even this? It's a strange company, not even having a website and it's not very communicative either - I've never claimed that - but it's engineering.
I'm sorry that I'll have to come up with these things over and over again, but whole industries died because of things like that!
The Swiss for example had the most advanced watch/fine-mechanical/micro-mechatronics of the world with over 70000 highly trained employees. They were crushed by "cool" Asian plastic watches. But they were lucky, people realized that the quality is worth the price and Nicholas Hayek (chief of Swatch) saved technology, suppliers and thousands of jobs against short-sighted business- and marketing-people until that happened.
How? He was long-sighted, he believed in the Swiss (propably because he isn't born Swiss!?) and their skills instead of just comparing wages... The engineers realized that they could built also plastic-quartz-watches more efficiently (the Japanese needed 150 parts, they only 30) and within a few years they became the market leader again.
But that's a rare case, besides superior technology we have to fight with less and less quality in consumer-electronics, clothes, cars...
I'll stop here, I could write for hours - but who would read that ;-) But I'll hope that you get the point, a basic understanding besides your point of view. Just like your client doesn't appretiates every aspect of your work instantly and say's "that's pretty expensive for a few pictures I could have shot myself"...
I don't know "Markin"-heads - what do they do better than Arca? Do they have an aspheric ball?
Capitalism is a wonderful concept - and a double-edged sword. You can charge ANY price you want, at any markup you see fit -- as long as the market will bear it, it's livin' good time.
The market 'bearing it' can mean anything from you're the only game in town to you offer the best gear, best service, etc. You're not a charity, you're a business that exists to make money - the more the better. Good stuff.
As (lets assume) a premium-price vendor it's also solely YOUR obligation to your shareholders/investors to defend (and grow) that profit stream - via ongoing innovation, legal action, service, support distribution, marketing etc.
That said, capitalism also has a nasty tendency to come back to bite you in the ***. If, for whatever it appears as if the market will no 'bear' your pricing , it's YOUR obligation, NOT the market's, to defend it and if no longer able to do so, adjust to the new reality via your pricing, cost structure, support system, product breadth, etc., -- or diminish as a player.
Firms copy one another's innovation all the time. The 'Flex exists solely because of the huge premium charged for the Cube. You can fight them in court (if able) for years and, if victorious, continue to sell a smattering of $2400+ Cuber/year -- until someone else comes along and you start the battle once again, and again, and again. All the while advertising, on your dime, just how much more you charge vs. other manufacturers for 'the same' product.
Or you can admit the good times are over, lower your premium by dropping margins and/or moving production to a lower cost region. By doing so you all but decapitate the threat from the 'flex (or it's successors) -- while stimulating sales, lowering per unit costs (and thus upping margins) accordingly.
The market 'bearing it' can mean anything from you're the only game in town to you offer the best gear, best service, etc. You're not a charity, you're a business that exists to make money - the more the better. Good stuff.
As (lets assume) a premium-price vendor it's also solely YOUR obligation to your shareholders/investors to defend (and grow) that profit stream - via ongoing innovation, legal action, service, support distribution, marketing etc.
That said, capitalism also has a nasty tendency to come back to bite you in the ***. If, for whatever it appears as if the market will no 'bear' your pricing , it's YOUR obligation, NOT the market's, to defend it and if no longer able to do so, adjust to the new reality via your pricing, cost structure, support system, product breadth, etc., -- or diminish as a player.
Firms copy one another's innovation all the time. The 'Flex exists solely because of the huge premium charged for the Cube. You can fight them in court (if able) for years and, if victorious, continue to sell a smattering of $2400+ Cuber/year -- until someone else comes along and you start the battle once again, and again, and again. All the while advertising, on your dime, just how much more you charge vs. other manufacturers for 'the same' product.
Or you can admit the good times are over, lower your premium by dropping margins and/or moving production to a lower cost region. By doing so you all but decapitate the threat from the 'flex (or it's successors) -- while stimulating sales, lowering per unit costs (and thus upping margins) accordingly.
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georgl:
several of us share your sentiment.
i think this breaks down into two camps:
1. those who would buy the knockoff because it is cheaper and quite likely adequately made (as long as it is "legal" to do so, but that issue is typically not seen as the consumer's responsibility)
2. those who feel a direct copy knockoff is stealing from another designer, whether illegal or not, and do not want to support such a method of doing business
with regard to the Clam/Cube specifically,
1. we do not know enough to tell who is copying who (they do seem to be nearly identical)
2. the clam seems to be extremely well made
3. nothing is known about patents, legality, etc.
4. the Asian market is notorious for making illegal copies of everything, ignoring or not enforcing copyrights and patents
5. the Asian manufacturing community is capable of extremely well made precision products, as well as making the machines that produce them
several of us share your sentiment.
i think this breaks down into two camps:
1. those who would buy the knockoff because it is cheaper and quite likely adequately made (as long as it is "legal" to do so, but that issue is typically not seen as the consumer's responsibility)
2. those who feel a direct copy knockoff is stealing from another designer, whether illegal or not, and do not want to support such a method of doing business
with regard to the Clam/Cube specifically,
1. we do not know enough to tell who is copying who (they do seem to be nearly identical)
2. the clam seems to be extremely well made
3. nothing is known about patents, legality, etc.
4. the Asian market is notorious for making illegal copies of everything, ignoring or not enforcing copyrights and patents
5. the Asian manufacturing community is capable of extremely well made precision products, as well as making the machines that produce them
shakeshuck
Member
Nice post, georgl. Well said.
I think the problem most people are having is that the cube was (?) $1300 a few years ago, and is now $2400? If they can make one for $1300, or with later costs, say $1600, why the great leap in price?
I don't think any of this would be under debate if they were charging $1600 instead of $2400.
I think the problem most people are having is that the cube was (?) $1300 a few years ago, and is now $2400? If they can make one for $1300, or with later costs, say $1600, why the great leap in price?
I don't think any of this would be under debate if they were charging $1600 instead of $2400.