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[Graham Mitchell]

Most of you are professional photographers, so just imagine somebody copies your pictures and sells them for half the price - not because he is working more efficient, just because he is using cheaper equipment, doens't have to think about much about lighting/framing (you already did) and selling it for half the price is just his business-concept.
.....
I'm sorry that I'll have to come up with these things over and over again, but whole industries died because of things like that!

I've been saying the same thing and I'm quite sure all the photographers here would be outraged to see their photos used without permission, or prints of their work sold without license at a low price, etc. Hipocrisy.

What's worse than that is that some people here are going out of their way to promote the 'pirate' companies. Product piracy is a huge and very serious problem which has already put long-established and innovative companies out of business.

Please note that I am NOT objecting to fair competition which is GOOD for the consumer, I am objecting to pirate companies undercutting other companies who spend a lot on R&D. I don't think I'll post in this thread again, it's just upsetting me.

 

[jlm]

amen, graham

 

[BlasR]

Willem,

the Multiflex come with the leather bag?

If it didn't I can sale my bag for a $100.00 maybe they come down if they find it out, the I sold it for a $100.00

I think the price when from $1,300.00 to $2,400.00.

because Jack, sold he's bag for $1,100.00 in arca swiss find it out. (thank you jack)

Now we pay the price.

My bag it's for sale.


BlasR

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I have a Gitzo head , yea a real one. LOL

Lot's of discussion on this one but folks should not get upset on others opinions. We all have them and honestly not surprised by many modes of thought. One thing we need to remember is there is already a vast amount of reverse engineering going on and maybe another way to look at this. Look at Sigma , Tokina and Tamron for example. They would not even be in business if they did not reverse engineer off of the Canon, Nikon and Sony mounts. Obviously there are many ways to be looking at all this and I do enjoy everyones points of view even if I don't agree.

 

[Paratom]

I think its well known that for some asian cultures copying is not a bad thing, its an honor if you get copied because it says that your product is seen as a very good product.

The other thing is to see things more global. IMO protection doesnt help.
Yes, many things are produced in China/Asia today because of labor cost (or other reasons). However lets not forget that these companies often use European equipment and machinery, so this means we indirectly also participate a lot from them.
As a German I could say: hey - I only buy things produced in Germany....but hey- now I realize we live from Export. And even if we buy from other countries we will participate.
Does anybody think Arca Swiss cares when they buy a machining equipment if it is from the brand which invented such machine? They will probably see which brands offer such machines and than buy the one which offers the best value for money.

If we do the comparison with photographs: You sell a print for a premium price and sell the same subject/print over many years and to rise the price over the years 100%? So you take those 2 or 3 very good lifetime shots and sell them over and over again and earn good money for the rest of your life?
Would be nice.

 

[ddk]

Lots of assumptions here regarding relative pricing of the Cube vs. Multiflex, some unfairly calling AS greedy, others think that Koreans are happier with less profit, etc., etc., but what everyone is ignoring is the difference of the distribution channels. I'll bet you AS ex-factory price is less than what PhotoClam is charging for their product, selling them direct on e-bay. The Cubes $2400 retail price includes, the cost of the item + shipping and import duties to the distributor + distributor markup = new cost + shipping to dealer + dealer markup = MSRP. I bet you that Cube's ex-factory price is in the $800-$900 range and that is more than fair! At this price they probably make around $300 gross per head and how many cubes do you think that they can sell a year? AS is anything but greedy. In reality PotoClamp is the greedy party here selling their product @ $1200 a pop, a good deal would be $600-$700 considering their direct sales policy.

 

[FromJapan]

1. Piracy isn't restricted to Asia. Eastern Europe and Russia are major centers of piracy.
2. Piracy in western countries also exists, in different areas - I have referenced some cases regarding biopiracy. Please see my post no.55
3. Piracy is a fact of life. All of us experience it in one form or the other.
I have asked how, as an individual photographer, without the resources to get into a legal battle, all of you have tackled piracy. I have shown my approach, in my field. I have even managed to keep those clients who had sold my work to others at a profit. I have recovered that loss many, many times over.

Marketing and economics.

A/S knew about the MultiFlex a long time ago.
What PR, marketing and legal steps have they taken to combat it?
What economic steps has it taken?

A/S claims IP rights over the Cube. If it has a patent, there is nothing secret about it. If the patent is pending, again no secret. A patent holder must actively defend its patent, and must prove it has done so, in court.

I asked if anyone knew why A/S doubled the price of the Cube in three years, whether it had raised its prices on other products by similar margins, whether its competitors had raised their prices by similar margins. A/S is of course free to set its own prices, but it is also competing with other equally good manufacturers.

There is no use shouting from the rooftops about the legality and morality of it, or simply being upset and outraged.

Sitting on its hands, and getting photographers to whine isn't going to help
A/S or photographers.

Kumar

 

[steflaurent974]

There is a big battle here about te Cube / Mulltiflex thing ; I have personaly made my choice. I have ordered a Multiflex head. I leave in an Island in Indian Ocean, here everything is expensive and I 'm quite sure I am the only one here looking for such a device. So when I make my business, I buy in uS, GB, France or Korea...anyway the cheapest is the best because here I've got no distributor or any warranty applying or backing me. So in many case I have to buy double equipment in case of problems with one.
I think all these High end mechanical, optical companies are bound by our occidental world laws and taxes. They should be afraid of our asian friends who are very capable people and can in a few years equal the quality of production of occidental companies. We have seen this in the astronomy and optical field : Chinese production now equal german and french one for half the price ; and the first reason of it , these occidental companies have delocalized somme of their products here.

But please don't fool me, 1900 euros or 764 euros, some great ingeener has to explain me where is going my money. And as I do not received clear and good explanation about this, I went for the Multiflex (in fact very easy , in english and smooth ). AS should have brought aswers to their customers all I here on this thread is hypothesis , maybe R&D, maybe Patents , ...?
Period : Photoclam 1 - Arca swizz 0

Let everybody make it his proper way and beware of rapid judgemnt.

Let'go back to our goal : photos , a lots of .

;-)

 

[FromJapan]

Lots of assumptions here regarding relative pricing of the Cube vs. Multiflex, some unfairly calling AS greedy, others think that Koreans are happier with less profit, etc., etc., but what everyone is ignoring is the difference of the distribution channels. I'll bet you AS ex-factory price is less than what PhotoClam is charging for their product, selling them direct on e-bay. The Cubes $2400 retail price includes, the cost of the item + shipping and import duties to the distributor + distributor markup = new cost + shipping to dealer + dealer markup = MSRP. I bet you that Cube's ex-factory price is in the $800-$900 range and that is more than fair! At this price they probably make around $300 gross per head and how many cubes do you think that they can sell a year? AS is anything but greedy.

Unless each Cube was flying from France to the US and other countries in its own, individual first-class seat on Air France or SwissAir, I doubt it would add up to that much

And $2,400 isn't MSRP. It's the selling price at B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/342321-REG/Arca_Swiss_8501000_C1_Cube_Geared_Head.html

And who's stopping A/S from selling on eBay?? At least then they might get a web presence!!

Cheers,
Kumar

 

[stephengilbert]

My final two cents: whatever AS is charging is irrelevant to the issue of whether there's an ethical problem with copying or piracy. I guess you can justify buying the clone (many here have, in what seem to me to be legalistic arguments, something we hate in lawyers but seem willing to use ourselves), but don't blame AS's lack of business sense or "greed." I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[ddk]

Unless each Cube was flying from France to the US and other countries in its own, individual first-class seat on Air France or SwissAir, I doubt it would add up to that much

And $2,400 isn't MSRP. It's the selling price at B&H
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/342321-REG/Arca_Swiss_8501000_C1_Cube_Geared_Head.html

And who's stopping A/S from selling on eBay?? At least then they might get a web presence!!

Cheers,
Kumar

Run a business then you might get it, obviously you have no idea about the costs of a distribution network, otherwise you wouldn't make such ignorant remarks!

 

[FromJapan]

My final two cents: whatever AS is charging is irrelevant to the issue of whether there's an ethical problem with copying or piracy. I guess you can justify buying the clone (many here have, in what seem to me to be legalistic arguments, something we hate in lawyers but seem willing to use ourselves), but don't blame AS's lack of business sense or "greed." I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right.

No, I am saying there's more than one way to skin a cat. It's not about two wrongs making a right. It's about being trying to solve a problem in the most effective way. There's nothing wrong with A/S charging whatever the market will bear. No morals or ethics involved here.

And as I said earlier, my Manfrotto 405 serves my needs, I expect it to last for a long time despite my not-so-gentle handling, and I'm not about to buy a Cube or a MultiFlex any time soon.

Kumar

 

[FromJapan]

Run a business then you might get it, obviously you have no idea about the costs of a distribution network, otherwise you wouldn't make such ignorant remarks!

Uh, I do run a small business - I'm a photographer. It's small enough that I have to think carefully about every purchase, but it's big enough that we live in reasonable comfort here in Japan. With this income we could live like kings in our home country.

And long, long ago, I trained as an accountant, and worked with a management consultancy, where we developed distribution models for clients. I certainly understand the difference in selling something in the Leica showroom in Ginza, and in a box-pusher like B&H.

Cheers,
Kumar

 

[ddk]

Uh, I do run a small business - I'm a photographer. It's small enough that I have to think carefully about every purchase, but it's big enough that we live in reasonable comfort here in Japan. With this income we could live like kings in our home country.

And long, long ago, I trained as an accountant, and worked with a management consultancy, where we developed distribution models for clients. I certainly understand the difference in selling something in the Leica showroom in Ginza, and in a box-pusher like B&H.

Cheers,
Kumar

As I mentioned above, you don't get it my friend!

 

[Lars]

As I mentioned above, you don't get it my friend!

David - there's a difference in opinion and experiences, please leave it at that.

 

[ddk]

David - there's a difference in opinion and experiences, please leave it at that.

And that's why we share here.

 

[carstenw]

Saying "you don't get it" is not sharing.

 

[ddk]

Saying "you don't get it" is not sharing.

Read above, its explained.

 

[LJL]

Sorry, David, but even to my read, you first posited your thoughts, then you "explained" your views of how business works. When Kumar offered his perspectives, you snapped back with a somewhat didactic response suggesting Kumar's perspectives have little value. That did not feel good, and I was only reading it.

At this point, I think this lifeless horse has been flogged enough. Until there is some new information that changes the scenery, nobody is "right" or "wrong", but as consumers, we are free to support whomever offers us the deals that we prefer.

LJ

 

[carstenw]

Putting a smiley on after calling someone ignorant doesn't make it okay, IMO.

Anyway, I find it a bit sad that a thread about saving a few bucks is much longer than most technical or photography threads here.