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Phase One P40 Plus back

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Apparently you didn't read the thread (speaking of ignorance). It started with a statement on Doug's website comparing Phase backs with DSLRs. Oh the irony... :ROTFL:
Well, I only can reiterate, it is nonsense in my mind to compare DSLR and MFDB. Just the basic physical knowledge tells you that this is nonsense.

DSLR is DSLR and it is good for what it is built and designed.

MFDB is MFDB and it has its own area of application and quality.

Comparing the 2 worlds is really comparing apples and oranges or whatever you like to throw in here - pure waste of time :D
 

ChrisDauer

Workshop Member
Re: P40+?

I always liked the chart comparing the different backs. Check this out big buffer on the new back
ROFL Awesome!

So I went looking for that chart on the web. Google gave me the DPI thread (pretty high up on the search results Woo! Hoo! :)

and Guy seals the deal w/ the chart I was looking for.

And to answer your next question. No.

No way in H-E-double-hockey-sticks am I getting into medium format! Ever! Period! :rolleyes: uhm, maybe. Ask me later. :cry:
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Re: P40+?

And to answer your next question. No.

No way in H-E-double-hockey-sticks am I getting into medium format! Ever! Period! :rolleyes: uhm, maybe. Ask me later. :cry:
Last time I heard words like come out of your mouth wasn't it about the M8? Then was it what, like a month later you showed up with more M gear than Guy, Mike and I combined owned?


:ROTFL: :ROTFL: :ROTFL:
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: P40+?

(and light years ahead of any dSLRs) LOL
Doug, thanks for posting those samples.

Sorry to nitpick but on that page it is written:
"The P40+ packs the same jaw dropping 12.5 stops of dynamic range as the flagship P65+, the highest dynamic range in medium format digital (and light years ahead of any dSLRs)."

But...the Nikon D3X seems to have over 13 stops as well as some others:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/eng/DxOMark-Sensor/(appareil)/D3X/(metrics)/
ROFL Awesome!

So I went looking for that chart on the web. Google gave me the DPI thread (pretty high up on the search results Woo! Hoo! :)

and Guy seals the deal w/ the chart I was looking for.

And to answer your next question. No.

No way in H-E-double-hockey-sticks am I getting into medium format! Ever! Period! :rolleyes: uhm, maybe. Ask me later. :cry:
I've made a Chris Dauer Voodoo doll and the minute I get a P40+ demo unit I'm putting it in the hands of the Voodoo doll.

You're doomed!

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
 

PeterA

Well-known member
I just laugh at the open platform boast - you know along the lines "you can choose any mount you like"

- an open platform back allows the user to change mounts Doug ANY time they like as in immediately as in umm NOW ...also there are three other manufacturers of digi backs that can say exactly the same thing as Phase - with their similalrly 'open' which arent 'open' designs - and only 2 manufacturers that satisfy my definition of open - (that would be Sinar and Hasselblad)

keep up the marketing BS .

This forum could self regulate and clear for marketing BS - that would differentiate it from most. Phase is the clear leader in the BS and obfuscation department

This is why you should buy a Phase P45+ or whatever - you pay more for the back BUT you get a whole bunch of glass thrown in for free!!
 

Bill Caulfeild-Browne

Well-known member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

I was a programmer for a vibration analysis company before and during college and I'm a pretty big nerd in general so I am intimately familiar with signal-to-noise. I agree that this is the sole determinant of DR as measured scientifically. By no means however is this the end of the story for those who are interested in the final image.

Most people mean DR as "how much of the scene's shadows and highlights I can put on paper (or into web pixels or whatever)". In this practical context the ability for the software to reach into the recorded signal and render out meaningful, color accurate, and detailed information is as much a part of the equation as anything else. One huge example is the black-cal file (taken even at short shutter speeds) which isolates the quantity and type of noise on the sensor in order to suppress it during processing. Only Phase One software can access that black-cal file and that information helps reduce shadow noise (also helps lengthen the max exposure times) with minimal lose of real data.

I imagine you and I can have a very informed and excruciatingly technical conversation about the theoretical or scientifically measured DR of various digital backs and cameras. Provided that someone wants to shoot line charts, step patterns then that conversation would prove meaningful. For practical applications however the software, the type of noise, the color accuracy of shadows, and the ease of playing with the reproduced DR of the file are all important.

If this discussion seems overly technical to some then here is the summary:
If you shoot a difficult scene with a D3X and a Phase Back* and handle each well you will get more detail out of the highlights and shadows with the Phase back, and the quality/texture/aesthetics/feel of those shadows and highlights is judged by most as being more pleasing/natural and less "digital".

*Again I'm not claiming Phase is the only brand for which this is true; I just prefer to make claims that I have personally verified.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
Well, I don't have a D3X nor a P65+, but I do have Sony a900 and a P45+. There is NO and I mean NO comparison when it comes to DR, clarity and what I call immediacy. The P45+ is simply better.

But I don't use it for shooting birds in flight!

Bill
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I use my eyes for a DXO test. LOL

Honestly they may mean something to some folks and that is fine but I like to see things and that tells me so much more. I really am not a scientific mind and it may seem wrong to say these things but I just have no interest or do not know enough mentally about this stuff but my eyes are extremely good and that is my best asset.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Well, I don't have a D3X nor a P65+, but I do have Sony a900 and a P45+. There is NO and I mean NO comparison when it comes to DR, clarity and what I call immediacy. The P45+ is simply better.

But I don't use it for shooting birds in flight!

Bill
Bill,

maybe you try it for birdshot - would be a real challenge :ROTFL:

And you can crop afterwards, because of the MPs you have :D
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I just laugh at the open platform boast - you know along the lines "you can choose any mount you like"

- an open platform back allows the user to change mounts Doug ANY time they like as in immediately as in umm NOW
Not for me it doesn't... I want my back to mount TIGHT to the body with zero slop and most importantly, I want it to be PERFECTLY parallel to the lens projection plane! I am of the opinion that any mount I can change myself, as in right now without tools, simply cannot be made to the tolerances to keep it both tight and perfectly parallel, especially since now it has two separate mounting methodologies to deal with; one for the back to the camera and the other for the camera-specific adapter mount plate to the back. A better chance to experience additive tolerance error...

But then I'm not a mechanical engineer, just a stupid photographer... Oh wait, maybe that's the problem with allowing me to swap out precision mounts! :ROTFL:
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Someone has a typo. In the CI specs Guy posted above, it states a 1.4 frames/sec at full resolution, and in the first comparison spec sheet from Phase, it says 1.2.

Doesn't matter one bit to me, but it caught my eye anyway.

Is 0.4 captures/sec faster worth a "all about speed" marketing title over the P30+? Seems like splitting hairs. Sure, that's 50% faster technically, but in the real world, is that speed even noticeable? That's like from now to now, nowtonow, nowNOW, now. :)

Justin

In my experience, a half second difference - especially going from 1.25 to .08 is very significant, in any light. I have felt myself missing shots on numerous occasions with a P30+ - mostly expressions, or a movement. I'm not shooting a bunch of shots in a row, just making selective exposures, but often it's a see, react and fire. At one shot every 1.25 seconds, sometimes it is see, react, .....can't quite fire yet, crap!. I saw the shot, the moment, knew that was it, and just missed it. The P40+ is going to fire faster than I can react - in most cases. Or put another way, it will be ready to fire.

And that is really the function this product is targeted for. That it has some additional niceties like a generous amount of resolution, and good high ISO make it a well rounded package.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Not for me it doesn't... I want my back to mount TIGHT to the body with zero slop and most importantly, I want it to be PERFECTLY parallel to the lens projection plane! I am of the opinion that any mount I can change myself, as in right now without tools, simply cannot be made to the tolerances to keep it both tight and perfectly parallel, especially since now it has two separate mounting methodologies to deal with; one for the back to the camera and the other for the camera-specific adapter mount plate to the back. A better chance to experience additive tolerance error...

But then I'm not a mechanical engineer, just a stupid photographer... Oh wait, maybe that's the problem with allowing me to swap out precision mounts! :ROTFL:
Jack the issue regarding 'prefect fit' is separate to the issue of calling backs 'open' or not - true?

regarding perfect fit - have had no problems so far with the Sinar changing adapter routine - three screws and they supply the crew drivers..

Mind you I am no mechanical engineer either - I just a have double honours in pure and applied mathematics - which equipped me for absolutely nothing in the real world- oh except for one thing - larfing my head off when I read internet goobledegok about digi chips.:)
 

JohnH

New member
See specification chart - I like the temperature conversions - is this something to do with global warming?

[It is so easy to take cheap shots I know - but I could not help it...]

Maybe I should hold off my P45+ purchase for a while longer...

Cheers,

John
 

PeterL

Member
See specification chart - I like the temperature conversions - is this something to do with global warming?
Give the Danes a break, they have never experienced anything as high as 40C ! :) 104 or 122 so what :ROTFL:

Cheers, -Peter
 
A

andershald

Guest
Give the Danes a break, they have never experienced anything as high as 40C ! :) 104 or 122 so what :ROTFL:

Cheers, -Peter
Now, now! We travel!

...just not with a P40+ obviously :toocool:

Anders
 

gogopix

Subscriber
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

I was a programmer for a vibration analysis company before and during college and I'm a pretty big nerd in general so I am intimately familiar with signal-to-noise. I agree that this is the sole determinant of DR as measured scientifically. By no means however is this the end of the story for those who are interested in the final image.

Most people mean DR as "how much of the scene's shadows and highlights I can put on paper (or into web pixels or whatever)". In this practical context the ability for the software to reach into the recorded signal and render out meaningful, color accurate, and detailed information is as much a part of the equation as anything else. One huge example is the black-cal file (taken even at short shutter speeds) which isolates the quantity and type of noise on the sensor in order to suppress it during processing. Only Phase One software can access that black-cal file and that information helps reduce shadow noise (also helps lengthen the max exposure times) with minimal lose of real data.

I imagine you and I can have a very informed and excruciatingly technical conversation about the theoretical or scientifically measured DR of various digital backs and cameras. Provided that someone wants to shoot line charts, step patterns then that conversation would prove meaningful. For practical applications however the software, the type of noise, the color accuracy of shadows, and the ease of playing with the reproduced DR of the file are all important.

If this discussion seems overly technical to some then here is the summary:
If you shoot a difficult scene with a D3X and a Phase Back* and handle each well you will get more detail out of the highlights and shadows with the Phase back, and the quality/texture/aesthetics/feel of those shadows and highlights is judged by most as being more pleasing/natural and less "digital".

*Again I'm not claiming Phase is the only brand for which this is true; I just prefer to make claims that I have personally verified.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
Doug, help me here.

Getting info from highlights and shadows is NOT extrapolation, is it?

255 255 255 is 8bit processing. PS H/S simply goes into the 16bit level and raises the detail into the 8bit level with non linear processing (much as the Leica M8 gets 12 stop DR from 8bits, except with a 16bit sensor, its is just ALL there.

SO, if I see a washed out sky, and then use HLT recover, and all of a sudden I see the clouds, blue sky etc, that can hardly be 'extrapolation' it is simply bringing lower bits to the higher level of 8 bit screen and then you see it.
to make it save in 16 bits it is just non liearly saves

BTW non linear simply means 2>1 4>2 8>3 as an example in logrythmic processing.

Bottom line, both the SLRs and Back can have real info
its just, well, as bob pointed out, how good it looks in the final files.

Victor
 

gogopix

Subscriber
.... crew drivers..(sic!)

Mind you I am no mechanical engineer either - I just a have double honours in pure and applied mathematics - which equipped me for absolutely nothing in the real world- oh except for one thing - larfing my head off when I read internet goobledegok about digi chips.:)
So, haven't found a use for Sheaf Theory?:bugeyes:

:lecture:Actually, if you consider a sensor a topological space and each pixels' bits an abelian group....:lecture:

NAHHHHHHHHHHH

best regards
Victor

PS: P65+ lookin' good on my Contax
. Now I just need time to take some SHOTS:ROTFL:
 

carstenw

Active member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Well, I don't have a D3X nor a P65+, but I do have Sony a900 and a P45+. There is NO and I mean NO comparison when it comes to DR, clarity and what I call immediacy. The P45+ is simply better.
Being in a budget crunch, but wanting something higher resolution than an M8, I am considering either an older MFDB for my Contax 645, perhaps something like a Kodak Pro 645, or going for the Sony A900. Does your worlds-of-difference judgement also hold for older 12-bit 16MP backs, or is the difference there less?

Victor, if you want, send the P65+ here and I will take it for walks for you :) I also have a Contax 645, so it would feel right at home :)
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Jack the issue regarding 'prefect fit' is separate to the issue of calling backs 'open' or not - true?

regarding perfect fit - have had no problems so far with the Sinar changing adapter routine - three screws and they supply the crew drivers..

Mind you I am no mechanical engineer either - I just a have double honours in pure and applied mathematics - which equipped me for absolutely nothing in the real world- oh except for one thing - larfing my head off when I read internet goobledegok about digi chips.:)
Pete:

I guess the difference is I just don't trust whoever machines the adapter plates :D

As for math being your major --- it was my course of study too. That is until I got into the theory class where we had to prove Cantor's "infinite number of infinities." After that lecture, I folded up my book full of notes, walked out of the class, changed my major and never returned to math class.

And the reality is that in my entire professional life I've never needed more math than up to basic calculus, and moreover, never really even needed that once I learned how to use Excel!
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Being in a budget crunch, but wanting something higher resolution than an M8, I am considering either an older MFDB for my Contax 645, perhaps something like a Kodak Pro 645, or going for the Sony A900. Does your worlds-of-difference judgement also hold for older 12-bit 16MP backs, or is the difference there less?
The Phase One H and P series digital backs all use 16-bit A/D convertors. The P series uses a more modern, tighter spec'd model and the + series uses a slightly better data path (but I'll be the first to say the real-world difference + to non plus at base ISO, short exposure, is negligible).

So a P20 (16 megapixel square) or P21 (18 megapixel rectangle) would both maintain the "world of difference" statement. The H20 (16mp square) and H25 (22mp rect) are both phenomenal and ignoring workflow/speed I would rather have a good raw file from an H20 than from a good raw file from a 1Ds III, but won't outshine it as thoroughly as the P series backs.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Re: Phase One P45 Plus back

Doug, help me here.

Getting info from highlights and shadows is NOT extrapolation, is it?

[...]

Bottom line, both the SLRs and Back can have real info
its just, well, as bob pointed out, how good it looks in the final files.

Victor
Correct. It is interpolation. Software can only draw detail out of areas of the raw file where light levels are below the maximum capacity of the sensor. So you can't extrapolate past the maximum what was recorded. Better software can make better use of less real data, but you always must have SOME real data.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up
 
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