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Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

rmueller

Well-known member
Carsten,

With the H3 you have exposure compensation on the rear wheel even when
shooting in Aperture Priority Mode. With my Nikon F5 i achieve the same by switching to manual, read the exposure in the viewfinder and compensate in 1/3 meter steps with the exposure wheel. So personally I don't use the exposure compensation dial at all on my Nikon.
Anyway, honestly I don't care at all about what the S2 provides or doesn't provide, i made my investment last year.

Regards,
Ralf
 

robmac

Well-known member
Might as well jump into this mess. Slow morning. 1Ds2 - simply 1/2 tap shutter button, then can simply rotate wheel with shutter finger to change EV comp. Eye stays on VF. Trigger finger maybe slides 0.5".

The ideal camera would have everything essential one, eye-on-VF, button-touch away. That said, such an ideal, give the 1001 features we all seem to want on a camera (or at least Marketing seems to think we want), has yet to exist. Designers make compromises for history ("oh no, they changed the position of the XYZ button that they've had since the F3... horrors, where's my keyboard.."), for a test photogs feedback - or for simple looks (the most idiotic).

It's a fact of life that we have to work around thru actual use.

On the S2, I do share some of Peter's handling concerns about camera mass vs pixel density vs lens mass.

Lets also be honest here, like the Phase series backs (which Leica clearly copied), no one puts 4 simple multi-mode buttons on the back of a camera (or Leaf a stylus system) to enable fast, "grab that Pulitzer" shooting.

All I can say is after all these debates before the sucker is even released, I sure hope the S2 lives up to billing by it's supporters or things could get VERY interesting in cyber-land (not to mention for Leica). That assumes it actually is released of course. Or is released at prices that actually reflect the ongoing tumble in the MFDB market (e.g. see this am's Hassy pre-owned kit sale email).

And NO, the S2 is NOT different enough to stand outside that descending bubble. It's a MF sensor + a shutter + lenses.

And yes, they're 'Leica lenses", but having Nth percentile glass will only compensate for so many other sins given the superb units already in the market from Mamiya, Hassy, Rollei, et al within a known snack-bracket and on well-established bodies, broad market availability and with well-established (and reasonably quick) support structures.

There will come a point where wringing that last degree of uber-fine-detail resolution out of a scene will simply not be noticed in commercial prints using similar sensors (all of which lack AA filters and all of which are from the same 3-4 vendors). At that juncture, any resolution above that 'I get paid' point is simply bragging rights. That said, Allah knows, a lot of folks do pay a lot for those rights.

Shuttered-lenses aside, will a Phase 30-(or it's upcoming) 40MP body+ say a 150/2.8 D (or Hassy/Leaf equivalent), which are getting cheaper by the week, produce that worse a shoot than an (as yet released) S2 + 180/3.5? If so (or if lens shutters are desired), just how much of a premium in terms of $$, support issues, Beta-testing will you willingly pay?

Also, if moving into (or upwards within) MF land, how long are you willing to wait to acquire a STABLE S2 kit+service structure, price aside, as values keep dropping on existing systems? Systems that could be earning you $$/Euros today? Say if you move next week with a Hassy/Phamiya/Leaf kit will you then be willing to dump that system say in 6-12 mos for $0.66 on the dollar to acquire for +/- 2x that sales cash, an S2? Or would a fraction of that cash outflow be better spent acquiring the next level in lighting or computing to lower your effort spent for $$ collected or for better studio rental?

I think Leica needs to stop talking and start shipping as the pricing gap between it's MF solution (one can safely assume) and the rest of the world's is getting wider with every passing week - and making it's market entry/success an ever-increasing challenge accordingly.



In shooting mode, the S2 has aperture on the wheel, and there is a dedicated shutter speed wheel on top. Applying exposure compensation can not be done without pushing a button on any DSLR I know of, unless I am missing something? The D3x has it under the right index finger, the +/- button. The 1Ds3 is the same. So I am not sure which camera you are referring to. The S2 has the same level of indirection for these controls as the top DSLRs.
 
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A lot of the cameras user interface seems to be determined by marketing, not by engineering or actual photographers (God forbid). Thats why Canon has a direct print button and didn't (until recently) have a quick way to lock/unlock the mirror. Bells and whistles only serve to make operation of the camera less fluid. I believe the single most significant improvement to the modern camera would be a thoughtful redesign of its user interface.
 
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stephengilbert

Active member
Rob,

"I sure hope the S2 lives up to billing by it's supporters or things could get VERY interesting in cyber-land (not to mention for Leica).

That assumes it actually is released of course - or released at prices that actually reflect the ongoing tumble in the MFDB market (e.g. see this am's Hassy pre-owned kit sale email).

And NO, the S2 is NOT different enough to stand outside that descending bubble. It's a MF sensor + a shutter + lenses."

Two things: if the S2 is nothing more than an MF sensor + a shutter + lenses, why all the hysteria over it? And, is it clear that there's a relationship between cyber-land hysteria and actual sales? There are certainly of few poeple posting incessantly about the S2 (not you, Rob) who will never buy one unless it sells for under $15,00 with a lens.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I think Leica needs to stop talking and start shipping as the pricing gap between it's MF solution (one can safely assume) and the rest of the world's is getting wider with every passing week - and making it's market entry/success an ever-increasing challenge accordingly.
I don't think they're talking that much - it's us that's doing all the talking :ROTFL:

Anyway - if the S2 has to survive simply on inroads to existing MF users it doesn't stand a chance.

As for the interface, it seems to me that it could turn out to be anything from a stroke of genius to a complete lemon as far as what we can now see.

This argument would seem to be between the half full brigade and the half empty brigade - still good fun though.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Good point Jono - I would give the edge to we chatterboxes re: the S2. Lets just say the quicker they get it out the better.

I don't think they're talking that much - it's us that's doing all the talking :ROTFL:

Anyway - if the S2 has to survive simply on inroads to existing MF users it doesn't stand a chance.

As for the interface, it seems to me that it could turn out to be anything from a stroke of genius to a complete lemon as far as what we can now see.

This argument would seem to be between the half full brigade and the half empty brigade - still good fun though.
 

woodyspedden

New member
Might as well jump into this mess. Slow morning. 1Ds2 - simply 1/2 tap shutter button, then can simply rotate wheel with shutter finger to change EV comp. Eye stays on VF. Trigger finger maybe slides 0.5".

The ideal camera would have everything essential one, eye-on-VF, button-touch away. That said, such an ideal, give the 1001 features we all seem to want on a camera (or at least Marketing seems to think we want), has yet to exist. Designers make compromises for history ("oh no, they changed the position of the XYZ button that they've had since the F3... horrors, where's my keyboard.."), for a test photogs feedback - or for simple looks (the most idiotic).

It's a fact of life that we have to work around thru actual use.

On the S2, I do share some of Peter's handling concerns about camera mass vs pixel density vs lens mass.

Lets also be honest here, like the Phase series backs (which Leica clearly copied), no one puts 4 simple multi-mode buttons on the back of a camera (or Leaf a stylus system) to enable fast, "grab that Pulitzer" shooting.

All I can say is after all these debates before the sucker is even released, I sure hope the S2 lives up to billing by it's supporters or things could get VERY interesting in cyber-land (not to mention for Leica). That assumes it actually is released of course. Or is released at prices that actually reflect the ongoing tumble in the MFDB market (e.g. see this am's Hassy pre-owned kit sale email).

And NO, the S2 is NOT different enough to stand outside that descending bubble. It's a MF sensor + a shutter + lenses.

And yes, they're 'Leica lenses", but having Nth percentile glass will only compensate for so many other sins given the superb units already in the market from Mamiya, Hassy, Rollei, et al within a known snack-bracket and on well-established bodies, broad market availability and with well-established (and reasonably quick) support structures.

There will come a point where wringing that last degree of uber-fine-detail resolution out of a scene will simply not be noticed in commercial prints using similar sensors (all of which lack AA filters and all of which are from the same 3-4 vendors). At that juncture, any resolution above that 'I get paid' point is simply bragging rights. That said, Allah knows, a lot of folks do pay a lot for those rights.

Shuttered-lenses aside, will a Phase 30-(or it's upcoming) 40MP body+ say a 150/2.8 D (or Hassy/Leaf equivalent), which are getting cheaper by the week, produce that worse a shoot than an (as yet released) S2 + 180/3.5? If so (or if lens shutters are desired), just how much of a premium in terms of $$, support issues, Beta-testing will you willingly pay?

Also, if moving into (or upwards within) MF land, how long are you willing to wait to acquire a STABLE S2 kit+service structure, price aside, as values keep dropping on existing systems? Systems that could be earning you $$/Euros today? Say if you move next week with a Hassy/Phamiya/Leaf kit will you then be willing to dump that system say in 6-12 mos for $0.66 on the dollar to acquire for +/- 2x that sales cash, an S2? Or would a fraction of that cash outflow be better spent acquiring the next level in lighting or computing to lower your effort spent for $$ collected or for better studio rental?

I think Leica needs to stop talking and start shipping as the pricing gap between it's MF solution (one can safely assume) and the rest of the world's is getting wider with every passing week - and making it's market entry/success an ever-increasing challenge accordingly.
rob

I think the issue of focal plane vs leaf shutter from a practical standpoint has to do with flash syncronization. Many studio shooters want to have flash sync well above the typical from a focal plane shutter e.g. 1/250 seconds. A leaf shutter allows flash sync at all shutter speeds up to the usual limit of 1/800 second or so. I don't do studio work (at this moment) so it is not a limit for me but it will be into the future.

Other than that, focal plane shutters have some nice advantages which most of us are familiar with so I won't go into details here.

I think it was a very wise decision for Leica to go with a system that will do both............something Mamiya/Phase have promised for several years now but have not delivered. We'll just have to wait and see if they will deliver into the future.

Woody
 

robmac

Well-known member
Stephen,

I think the hysteria is multi-fold:

1. It is a move by Leica back into D-SLR land (finally)

2. Leica-love + excitement by Leicaphiles. Understandable - to a degree. However, I will say too many people, especially in 'other' forums, pick up that enthusiasm, tuck it under their arms, and run with it well into the realm of fantasy, wishful thinking and "what drugs are you on?" land.

3. People who like to pick on #2 and know JUST what big red button (no pun intended) to push.

4. The very interesting dynamic of Leica entering a new market with an uber-system at what will probably be uber-prices while the rest of the established MF market has morphed to the 'brick off a roof' DSLR pricing curve -- and in the midst of a global recession.

5. Leica users, a bit more sane, who have been treading water for a LONG time waiting for an R10 and are now:

a) pissed off that the R10, for now, is the S2 and the iffy success of the latter will determine the very existence of the former.

b) wondering if it's time just to stop treading and succumb to the depths of ____.

6. Bored people with keyboards.

I do agree that the sweet spot of say $15,000 w/glass would probably better ensure the unit's success (and thus the advent of an R10) as many folks would think it worth the risk to step into that pool. That said, I wouldn't bet my 1/2 finished cup of cooling coffee on that happening.


Rob,

"I sure hope the S2 lives up to billing by it's supporters or things could get VERY interesting in cyber-land (not to mention for Leica).

That assumes it actually is released of course - or released at prices that actually reflect the ongoing tumble in the MFDB market (e.g. see this am's Hassy pre-owned kit sale email).

And NO, the S2 is NOT different enough to stand outside that descending bubble. It's a MF sensor + a shutter + lenses."

Two things: if the S2 is nothing more than an MF sensor + a shutter + lenses, why all the hysteria over it? And, is it clear that there's a relationship between cyber-land hysteria and actual sales? There are certainly of few poeple posting incessantly about the S2 (not you, Rob) who will never buy one unless it sells for under $15,00 with a lens.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Woody - quite right. The option of Leaf or FP shutter was a brilliant move. That said, as a 'pro' for teh system, it needs to be folded into the risk/rewards profile of the whole enchilada as it were.

It's also an advantage that can be stroked-thru on the whiteboard the moment Mamiya or Hassy, etc release AF or even auto-metering manual focus (but chipped) leaf lenses. The CS vs FP option from Leica may be just the kick say Mamiya needs to get it into gear. What happens to that cool advantage when Mamiya releases say a $3000 CS version of the 150 D (to pick one)? Hell, they (or Hassy) could up the premium nicely and still make it look like a bargain (with no systems swap needed) vs what the equivalent Leica glass will probably price at. Using a CS lens on a FP body would simply be the matter of a new firmware release.
 

Lars

Active member
But Lars, we don't know *why* pros buy the Nikons and Canons in such large number. You presume it is because of the buttons. I presume it is because of the IQ combined with convenience, speed, and complete systems... The fact that they sell well doesn't make every aspect of their design perfect, and I would bet (if there were some way to resolve it) that for every owner who uses many of these buttons on every shoot, there are three who don't touch them, except for one or two.

Anyway, there really is no way to resolve this, so why don't we leave it? I hope for a Leica S2 with a dead-simple interface, you hope for more buttons: I won! :)
Yeez. Grow up.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Carsten, on both canon and nikon cameras, all but the very cheapest, in manual mode one wheel does shutter other does aperture. In Aperture/Shutter priority or program mode one wheel changes the aperture/shutter the other applies exposure compensation. The +/- button is for zooming into the photo. Unless the Leica has a system whereby you can do either of the above it has the same DSLR functionality of a Drebel. Hardly a claim of useability or a paradigm shift in MF camera design.
 

carstenw

Active member
Yeez. Grow up.
"Grow up"??? It was a joke! Leica put only a few buttons on the camera, and there is nothing either of us can do about it. It was also the second time I was trying to stop having this discussion. There is no knowledge that one way or the other is more popular, regardless of which cameras are more popular. There is no sense in trying to figure out who is right, because there is no "right". Do you feel that it is more grown up to keep discussing this with no end in sight, and no way to resolve it properly?

Ben, I didn't mean the + and - loupe buttons, but the single +/- button on top of the cameras. Anyway, I thought you were talking about manual mode, so we were talking past each other.
 
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think we need a subset thread inside this forum thread. Low blood pressure tips and tricks.

1st TIP: IGNORE THE HYPE
2nd TIP: You don't have enough money to even think about it. That goes for all of us. LOL
3rd TIP: I finally could give a rats *** until it is out.
4th TIP: We truly are debating about air.
:ROTFL::ROTFL: Seriously I have read so much BS marketing on this thing that it truly is sickening and I can pretty much punch holes in every argument but alas I am just not going to think about it any more and keep my nose out of it. I truly hate half truths and missing data that it truly drives me crazy but I am going the low blood pressure route from now on. :lecture:

Podium off.:clap::clap::clap::clap:
 

cmb_

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Yes Guy, we are all waiting patiently for your thread with the S2 test shots - we know it will happen. :) :)
:ROTFL: :ROTFL:

Until then, I am not listening to a word of hype!
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Well if Leica was smart they would send me one. And shut my mouth. LOL

This thing has a LONG way to go before I put any faith in it. I like it but I need to see 95-100 percent on all counts
 
N

nei1

Guest
Carsten thats very well put,the alpha is a joy the formula one ,clinical,professional.This is a british version:)yes its square
 
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gogopix

Subscriber
I just updated my blog with photos and measurements from yesterday when I had an S2 mockup in our store.

David Farkas Photography Blog

I have side-by-side photos of the S2 and Nikon D3x, S2 and Mamiya 645 AFD, as well as some comparisons of S lenses to Hasselblad HC lenses.

I hope this settles some of the confusion on the size of the S2.

David
Dear David
Nice work. The S2 looks interesting ergonomically, and no one yet (I don't think) has pointed out how Leica got a SMALLER camera with virtually MF capability (the sensor has three times the MP and about the same area of some 645 backs, like H's from PO and Kodak)

By NOT needing room for film cans or DB, not only is the body smaller (electronics wrapped like a SLR) but the prism finder is a LOT smaller. It will definitely have more of an SLR feel. But you HAVE one (at least Mock up) is that true? Also, I can see Leica offering sensor upgrades as needed rather than new backs.

May not be a big deal for some, but I can tell you I often take the Alpa on the trail simply because it packs better. (BTW, with 12 stops and WA lenses, I haven't found any AF, AE etc. necessary.(" f8, don't be late" works for me :)

SO, am I still near the top of your S2 list? I am actually, FINALLY considering selling some stuff.

....maybe

Regards
Victor
 

beamon

New member
Seriously I have read so much BS marketing on this thing that it truly is sickening and I can pretty much punch holes in every argument but alas I am just not going to think about it any more and keep my nose out of it. I truly hate half truths and missing data that it truly drives me crazy but I am going the low blood pressure route from now on. :lecture:
Oh ye of little faith...spend some phone time with Brother David from Dale Photo land and heed Brother John's "12 Steps" now up on the Sunset Bar, then you too will be ready for the coming of the S2! :p:D
 
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