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Leica S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD

arashm

Member
you know after reading this far into this
I think we should start a thread and have people state how much they think this thing will cost and how much "they" are willing to pay for it.
should be an interesting read to go with my :) morning coffee
am
 

gogopix

Subscriber
don't know if you need a new thread, but a lot of speculation, on what price SHOULD be. Based on Back prices,and remembering that you are getting camera and 'back', $20,000 rather than $15,000 seems like a more reasonable 'floor'.
I don't think anyone would argue with a new Leica camera being $5,000. A 40MP bacK, $20,000 for SOTA would not be unreasonale, so my bet is

$22,500.

I would likely be willing to pay $25,000.

Think about it; don't look at what people can afford but what it has in value; if Leica can maintain their lens quality and deliver 4x the DMR resolution and support high quality auto focus, it has got to be close to the 'value' of a 40MP Hasselblad in my mind.
Where are those now?

Victor

PS ...and NO I am not independently wealthy; I am 66 years old and still work 14 hour days.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Victor your P65+ will depreciate soon enough to join everyone else's gear in "its worth peanuts land". :D

but dont worry my friend - this moment will coincide with an announcement about their brand new P80+ back with improved LCD!! for a modest $20K changeover price it will be all yours! Also you will get a 'free' 5 terabyte portable hardrive so you can store teh 20 files it wil make.:ROTFL::ROTFL:

little barbs thrown at poor old Hasselblad are so much fun to read!
 

gogopix

Subscriber
well, tell me where the hasselbad barbs are, I woudn't want to miss the fun.

However, if yoiu are referring to my question, it is a real one. I think the Hassebad 39 are between $28k and $33k, so even at $25k the Leica would be high, but not out of line.

Peter, take off the 'noir' coloured glasses, all is not gloom out there!

best regards
Victor
 

robmac

Well-known member
Think we should start a pool. Closest number (body+kit lens) gets the S2 shell Dale had on display (someone must have some strings in Solms they could pull).

One nice thing about looking in on the MF pool is that with every month you hold off they get cheaper and cheaper. While prices are currently adjusting in a step-wise manner to the realities of the new MF market vs old, they will eventual stabilize and then shift into (finally) a normal DSLR-esque style depreciation curve.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Think we should start a pool. Closest number (body+kit lens) gets the S2 shell Dale had on display (someone must have some strings in Solms they could pull).

One nice thing about looking in on the MF pool is that with every month you hold off they get cheaper and cheaper. While prices are currently adjusting in a step-wise manner to the realities of the new MF market vs old, they will eventual stabilize and then shift into (finally) a normal DSLR-esque style depreciation curve.
I am very sure that all the "entry level" MF offers will be below 10k$ for camera, back and lens finally. Give it another 6 - 12 months.

Not fun for the economy, not fun the the MF vendors, but very good for the users. I would even not be surprised, if one or the other vendor will disappear over this time - Leaf? Sinar, etc?

You may be right, at the end of this war a serious MF system will be in the range of a high end Pro DSLR. :cool:

I think I can wait :thumbs:
 

stephengilbert

Active member
ptomsu,

I think six to 12 months is too short a time frame. After all, we want prices to drop, but not so fast that Leica goes out of business. (And we don't want prices to fall to a few hundred dollars, or Leica will have trouble keeping up with demand.)

My advise is to wait six to 12 years. Then, even if prices haven't fallen to the level you desire, you'll at least be able to buy a good used camera.

Steve
 

PeterA

Well-known member
re Hasselblad barbs : You just have to be around a while - they resurface all the time..-:)

Re the world - it IS a beautiful place ..but things are grim..

Someone wrote that people go through 5 stages of grieving :
1. denial ( lots of people still there )
2. anger ( what i felt when haselblad did their first price reduction)
3. negotiation ( what people are doing about everything to do with buying now)
4. depression ( when people se that teh world REALLY HAS CHANGED )
5. Acceptance ( when companies accept the fact that tehy are better off making quality that lasts and stop with the BS)

OR

maybe I am too close to the meltdown and what is going on..-:)


On the S2 - how does one price 'quality'..I know I will end up paying whatever...IF the system works.
 
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jonoslack

Active member
Haasy 39 is 22k and your NUTS to even consider 25K for a S2 and I like you. LOL
On the S2 - how does one price 'quality'..I know I will end up paying whatever...IF the system works.
I doubt I'll be getting any of 'em. BUT if the system works . . then I'd certainly consider paying for the S2 - even if it's just for the size and the weather sealing. . . . . IF the system works.
 

robmac

Well-known member
ptomsu.

I think there will ALWAYS be a gap between MF and Hi-end SLRs. I just think that within the next year say, MFDB prices will stabilize at a normalized $$$ gap above such DSLRS.

However at that juncture, both systems will follow a very similar depreciation curve in terms of % value lost with the passage of time -- and more importantly when new models come out. Guess what happens when the first back with a hi-res LCD and LV comes out?

If Canikon make a S2esque move into > 35mm sensors, then that gap will narrow and prices will adjust downward for MF kits, then they will all hold hands as they toboggan down the same depreciation curve. Some folks just want > 24x36 at a reasonable MP count with no AA filter and decent lenses. For those that phew over Nikon/Canon lens performance (I'm one on many occasions), Nikon is getting better and they have to bear in mind that a very nice but not mind-blowing lens immediately 'gains' resolution when bolted to a modest MP-count sensor lacking an AA filter. Then you have (assuming they'd have the image circle) using CV, Leica, Contax, ZF, M645, Hassy F/C_ glass in stop down on said bodies.

I do think the DSLR makers would love to start playing in the higher-price snack bracket where they could charge notably less than the exiting norm for say a Hassy 31MP but still get higher margins due to manufacturing economies, etc.

Leica has a great idea, but it will be a) Leica and b) at Leica prices.

There is also THE other shoe to drop - a discussion John Black and I chatted about off line.

WHEN (not IF) Phamiya comes out with an unit that has Hassy-style integration, the value of existing Phamiya kits will take a 1x step-down adjustment, then ride the curve downward with the rest of the pack.

Integration is a natural goal of the Phase+Mamiya linkage (they did it with that goal in mind - or at least to stop someone else from doing it).

It makes life easier for both vendors, cuts on service/support time (fewer complaints of A not working with B), happier customers (no A blaming B who blames A) when something goes south, fewer instances of something going south (a natural by product of bolting two vendor's products together with miniscule tolerances needed), allows milking Nth degree performance from glass while keeping glass more affordable, etc. Hassy PO'd some folks when they pulled their move, but it makes sense.
 
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ptomsu

Workshop Member
ptomsu,

I think six to 12 months is too short a time frame. After all, we want prices to drop, but not so fast that Leica goes out of business. (And we don't want prices to fall to a few hundred dollars, or Leica will have trouble keeping up with demand.)

My advise is to wait six to 12 years. Then, even if prices haven't fallen to the level you desire, you'll at least be able to buy a good used camera.

Steve
Well,

by then I most probably will not need any camera anymore :D

I live now and I want to do business now and I at least am not waiting such a timespan.

But I can only reiterate - I think the most dramatic price erosions will happen in the next year.

And BTW - I do not care which company will go bankrupt or whatever by this, I want a cheap and godd MF digital solution. All that counts for me :thumbup:
 
K

K3N

Guest
We must not forget that we are getting used to things, even to disadvantages or design-curiosities - both, Leica and Nikon-users.
[...]

but just look at the switch for the exposure method. In the R8 it was perfectly integrated underneath the time wheel - where is it on the F5 (or D3x)? At the side of the prism, who came up with this idea? Just because there was space left?

I would love to hear how a Japanese feels about that, maybe it's the opposite?
[...]
The exposure meter mode? Its because of tradition.

Early professional Nikons had a mechanical body and an interchangeble viewfinder with meter. The controls for the meter ended up on the viewfinder prism. Have a look at the Nikon F (Photomic finder), F2as and F2a.

They've kept this tradition through the original F, F4, F5 to the current D3x.
 
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