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P30+ the real world noise

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just for grins . I processed this in ACR and used pretty close to the same noise reduction. I can't even get the color correct and it just stinks as far as noise
 
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Shelby Lewis

Guest
wow... the ACR rendering is ugly. It also doesn't appear to be as detailed (if that's possible to see on a web-sized image).I'm having similar probs with lightroom and my a900.

Maybe acr just doesn't like medium format and those other cameras that approach MF quality, lol.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I am just not a big fan of ACR and Phase files and actually I am just not a big fan of ACR period. I ALWAYS seem to get a magenta or red cast on any camera i have tried with it. My line is someone at Adobe likes red and it shows. Not as detailed either Shelby good eye.
 

carstenw

Active member
In addition to the noise mentioned by Ben, there are two strong black bands running from the bottom left corner of the screen and directly left. There is something like it in the ACR image, but the C1 image has it much stronger. Is there some way to remove artifacts like that?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I am just not a big fan of ACR and Phase files and actually I am just not a big fan of ACR period. I ALWAYS seem to get a magenta or red cast on any camera i have tried with it. My line is someone at Adobe likes red and it shows. Not as detailed either Shelby good eye.
Well, if one doesn't take the time to set up preferences and calibrations in LR using ACR, then "generic" is what you get.

However, were I shooting a Phase Back, I'd simply stick with C1, no doubt about it.

Guy, do you gel your fill? To my eye the red/cyan are an issue in both versions. The skin has a bit of that nuclear glow to it, and the jacket is contaminated. A natural outcome of the ambient temp perhaps, and something I deal with all the time when dragging the shutter at weddings regardless of camera used. The worst is the M8.



Now that introduces an interesting notion ... one I've been thinking about for a while. Adding an IR filter in conditions like these. I had some technoid once tell me that all digital cameras suffer IR contamination to some degree or another. And as we know from our M8 experiences, tungsten ambient is really bad news in terms of IR.

Wonder if those shots would be a bit more natural out of the camera, better skin tones and rendering of the suit jacket.

Heck, it maybe worth a try just to see if it works in situations like this. I'll order a 77mm for my Hassey lenses and try it. Anyone know which is the weakest IR to look for?

Whatdayathink?
 

carstenw

Active member
Heck, it maybe worth a try just to see if it works in situations like this. I'll order a 77mm for my Hassey lenses and try it. Anyone know which is the weakest IR to look for?
It sounds like a good idea, and worth a shot. The IR filter to get would be an IR blocking filter, like a B+W 486, not an IR absorbing filter. The blocking filters remove light of certain wavelengths, which is perfect for not disturbing the normal light. These filters also don't affect exposure (unless of course the meter sees a significant amount of IR light). The IR blocking filters are sensitive to the angle of the light, however, so super-wides will be problematic. Down to about 50mm should be okay, on MF. I guess you already know all this from your M8 :)

After the experiment of using a blue filter in tungsten lighting was successful in making a small, but visible difference to the image quality, I have toyed with the idea of building up a set of light-colour correction filters, as in the film days, for when the absolute best image quality is desired. Most of them have an exposure factor though, so it would only relevant for tripod situations, for me.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
No this is just a straight Metz flash the red light is all ambient stage lighting they are using. Not sure a IR filter would actually help any. I have never seen any real contamination from the Phase back. On the ACR i simple could not get a good WB off that shirt same place iWB off for C1 and used primarily identical settings as well. Seriously ACRis always got some sort of red contamination. Had it with the M8 and Nikon as well. Not sure why that is. This maybe worth a test. I am shooting some models tomorrow and i will use a Macbeth Chart anyway so we will bring a couple over to ACR and sees how it handles it. But honestly this is why I left LR and ACR was the red issue. Drove me nuts. Also ACR hates the Phase files since it has no profiles for itso yes C1 is the obvious choice for Phase files, you pretty much forced into it since they come in so bad in ACR right out of the can.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Here look at this straight from the can in ACR plus it comes in a stop overexposed which is the only thing I fixed. See this is my starting point
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
C1 straight out of camera i reset everything. Interesting thing ACR has the tint slider all the way to the magenta side at 22 and c1 at 1. It just can't read the Phase files well at all
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
The noise is cleaner right out of the can as well. Obviously ACR is not this bad with Canon , Nikon and others but Phase files are just not built into there algorithms.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
You can say that again, the difference between your P30+ RAW iso 1600 files in ACR and C1 was more than drastic and I do know ACR very very well. I'd be interested to see how well they handle the 'blad files now that they've added them to their list of compatible raw files.

I don't find the ACR WB dropper to be anywhere near accurate. I click then adjust to taste often by close to 1000K. Custom DNG profiles make a difference (and are incredibly easy to do) and I also have the red saturation permenantly set to -3, I also don't like the default ACR love of red tint...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I remember when I had the M8 I had the red calibration in LR adjusted as well and saved that as a preset. I'm happy for the Blad owners that is good news and maybe they have it set correctly for them but the Phase files is like it does not exist with Adobe. Now i could go in LR and get this setup really well and calibrate for it and save the preset but seriously it just turns me off that i would have to do that when a program with all lens corrections and such plus better noise is already out there and designed for it. Plus it like other cameras as well
 
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Shelby Lewis

Guest
I'm just going to put it out there... no matter what I've done, calibration-wise, the rendering of color on Sony files (and even canon for me) in ACR/Lightroom just doesn't look "right" to me. Can't speak for phase. Even if I adjust for the reds, the balance of color goes all funky and loses smoothness and naturalness in tonal gradation. I should try the dng profiler, but I don't want to add the extra DNG step to my workflow.

Will my clients notice it?... probably not... so i don't sweat it too bad. My complaint is of the nit-picky type. What I also don't like with ACR is the handling of noise and detail is such that I lose some resolution with my newer high-mp equipment. Again... nothing major, but it does cut down on the 3d-ness of the files a little bit (which for portraits is ok).

Unfortunately... I'm running an older macpro on 10.4.x and can't use c1 presently so I'm making due with ACR/Lightroom (and making due pretty well)... but if I take the time to process in RD or RPP, the results are much better.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
I just had a play with a portrait taken at a wedding a year ago, all natural light, no flash. Just couldn't get the colour or tonality any where near right in C1 but it looked great from ACR. In neither was the 'out of the box' WB anywhere near accurate.

I think it boils down to which program you're willing to invest the time and effort into. These programs are all plenty sophisticated enough that when you know them through and through you can get them close enough not to make a difference (assuming a non 'specialised' manufacturer whose cameras are decently profiled). I think the point is to find what works best and learn it so thoroughly that it's more than subconsicous to get the best quality file possible for your needs. Pretty much like a camera. The only complications arise if you have a situation like the one which sparked this whole fascinating conversation over 3 threads, when one RAW converter, for all it's sophisitication, does not support a certain camera or back to it's full potential. The P1 backs, M8 and A900 in ACR are a perfect example. That's when the water gets muddied.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Totally agree Ben and great comments. Some cams just simply do not work well or play well with some converters this is a classic case we are seeing I know for sure with the M8 and Phase and as Shelby is mentioning with the new Sony cam which i am dying to try myself.
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
BTW, serious kudos to this forum, I can't think of a single other forum that those 3 threads on the subject have provided so much information, friendliness and acceptance of peoples preferences. On even the better forums out there it would have automatically become a slinging flame war. This is why this forum is so incredibly helpful and such a nice place to be.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
It's all about the members Ben and I agree 110 percent. Thanks comments like that keep Jack and I in great spirits and other members as well.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
I'm just going to put it out there... no matter what I've done, calibration-wise, the rendering of color on Sony files (and even canon for me) in ACR/Lightroom just doesn't look "right" to me.
Amen to that, only for me it has been for Phase, Canon and Leica files. For posterity, it would be great if you cross-posted this comment in the C1 v LR thread in our processing forum...
 
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