The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

Leaf moves manufacture to China?

carstenw

Active member
That's really a shame. I had no idea that anything was wrong. Has anyone talked to Peartree or any other knowledgeable dealer?
 

carstenw

Active member
Sorry Carsten, but you are the worst example of people who do not want to understand
Not at all. Your response to David's comment about Herr Doktor Kaufmann's mention of "Leica Cinema" was:

All the public statement of CEOs and owners of companies are just hot air! In best case they can talk about visions, their visions, over the next few years, but it is definitely not more than visions!
In other words, you think that it is very likely that nothing will come from this, i.e. "Leica Cinema" is vapourware. My counter-argument was that I was not aware of any Leica vapourware in the past, ever. You responded to this with a bunch of comments about Leica products which you thought didn't perform in some way.

You are failing to stick to one point here, and are moving the argument all over the place, including ad hominem attacks.

My point was and is, Leica is not a known vapourware offender. This means that if "Leica Cinema" is mentioned, there will almost certainly be something released. I am sure you will be unhappy with it when it is released :)

Your personal favorite, Phase One, is a strong contender in the vapourware sweepstakers, however, currently having at least two entrants: the vertical grip, and the leaf shutter lenses. If you are so angered by vapourware, you should really consider another back manufacturer. If not, then you should rephrase your criticism of Leica.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Ok folks, let me try different:

Let's take out of discussion the phrase vapourware for the moment - ok?

However you call this, bringing a product to market (one of the following or multiple aplying):

1) too late (DMR, S2, etc.)
2) unmature (M8)
3) launch it but then no follow up (D system)
4) skip without any follow up (DMR and R system)

I call all of these not meeting the expectations of customers, who believe in a company and their products and abilities. But what has always happened in the background were announcements and statements by leading employees and by the CEOs being in charge at these times. And these statements were most of time misleading.

So in general I could call that also vapourware, because even if you bring a product which then does not meet the expectations on a broad base, is at least not better, sometimes even worse than vapurware!

So Carsten, how many of the products did you own and were you directly affected by the flaws - M8, DMR, D System, R System???? If you can answer that you owned all of them and were burned by all of them (like I was) then I would accept your comments and even apologize! :eek:

Otherwise - I am really sorry - you do not know what you are talking about here and better stop :(
 

carstenw

Active member
Let's wrap this up since it isn't of interest to anyone here except us, and is in the wrong thread. I have owned only the M8, and in spite of the problems, I am happy with it. The DMR was too bulky and expensive for me at the time, and I am aware of the past problems, but feel that Leica has done what they could to deal with a difficult situation (unreliable partner, inexperience with digital, waning interest in manual focus lenses). The Digilux cameras were never interesting to me, and I don't see the point of Leica's 4/3 involvement at the camera level.

There are some incorrect statements in your list though. The S2 will only be late if it isn't out by the 1st of September. The R system will only be left without a followup if they don't release a followup. If you mean only today, then you are right. I believe that the timeframe for the R followup is next year, but Leica hasn't made a statement on this yet. They have made a statement that it isn't the end, however, so the R situation is better than the Digilux situation in this regard (only).
 

Ben Rubinstein

Active member
Not Good, Not Good, Not Good. Ironic in a country with a booming economy (almost impossible to get credit for anything here in Israel so no credit crisis, what you have to go through for a mortgage here would scare the pants off an American but it's made sense in the end).

Methinks that all those who ignored the problems with F&H were putting their heads in the sand.

How long till P1 block off the Mamiya's to anyone else leaving just two real players? Can't see Leica ever stepping up to be a equal competitor to the hasselblad express train...
 
Last edited:

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Not Good, Not Good, Not Good. Ironic in a country with a booming economy (almost impossible to get credit for anything here in Israel so no credit crisis, what you have to go through for a mortgage here would scare the pants off an American but it's made sense in the end).

Methinks that all those who ignored the problems with F&H were putting their heads in the sand.

How long till P1 block off the Mamiya's to anyone else leaving just two real players? Can't see Leica ever stepping up to be a equal competitor to the hasselblad express train...
For me the P1 and Mamiya exclusivity is only a matter of time - maybe I am wrong but I am generally pessimistic in that branche!

WRT Hasselblad and P1 expresstrain - you will never get this from Leica! Especially not if they keep going with their 3-system strategy (M, R-follow up, S). They are just a tiny company, with admittedly GREAT ideas and thoughts and skills, but they only can do SO much .....

I am rather thinking about where the general evolution of high end digital photography will go? What will Sony, Nikon and Canon do in this area? Go to a different (larger) format or will they be able to improve the 35mm format so much further that everything larger than that is just not worth because differences are too small?

So maybe the S2 will be just that right new format. Nobody can tell today, we all can only wait. But I remember the discussions only 2-3 years back, when everybody was saying that more than 30MP in MF will never be necessary and in 35mm the limit will be around 16 to 18MP. And where are we today? And where will this go? And not only in the MP range, but also color depth, AA filters, dynamic range etc?

I think we are just seeing the real start of digital now and we will see a number of more mergers, newcomers and old established ones failing and disappearing. For the moment the leaders seem to be P1 and Hasselblad in MF and C and N in 35mm, but for how long? What about Sony in the future? And has Canon not already lost a big amount of reputation by their lousy implementations in say 1DsMk3 ????

Only time will tell, Leica can play a significant role if they manage to grow again their reputation, for the moment at least they have lost still most of it.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Yup, barring some 11th hr gyrations, certainly looks like a two horse (and one pony) race:

1. Hassy
2. Phamiya 'kit' system
2a Followed by Phase (will probably just do the deed) integrated system.

3. S2, if delivered/priced well (for a Leica), feeding a much smaller peripheral sub-market.

4. MAYBE at some future date Canikon entering with an S2-esque product going after the S2 'lust-listers' and the much larger pro-135 "I want more" DSLR user. IF one of Can/Nikon steps in the pond goes, the 2nd WILL follow. IF comes to pass, why a MUCH larger market than S2? Price, service, support, marketing, manufacturing capacity, trust of larger number of users, etc.

5. Since day dreaming - what about a Phase M7II-D?

Interesting days ahead.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Peter,
in one minute you write the "S2 is too late" in the next thread you write "the S2 might just be the one right new format"
The only bad thing about the DMR I saw was no AF and limit to lower ISO (Which you know before you buy it). Everything else worked as promissed and even better for me. Which particular problem did you have with the DMR?
The M8 has worked for me for over 2,5 years now. I still feel that if we let pure resolution away the M8 (in combination with the excellent lenses) delievers absolutly stunning IQ.
Which particular problem kept you from taking satistying images with the M8?
I now guess you either owned just prototypes or you had bad bad luck or maybe I (and many others) just had good good luck.
I am not a brand kind of guy. I also use Nikon, have owned Canon etc etc. I dont care for the brand but for the product, I care for what it can do and not so much for what it can NOT do.
maybe thats the difference between the 2 of us.
I think its fine to discuss, speculate etc. that what forums are for. I dont even care when it seems to get a "Stammtischgerede"-style. I dont understand at all why you get so personal regarding some people here. Your threads are just an opinion like that of other people here, not more and not less.

Hang loose, Tom



Ok folks, let me try different:

Let's take out of discussion the phrase vapourware for the moment - ok?

However you call this, bringing a product to market (one of the following or multiple aplying):

1) too late (DMR, S2, etc.)
2) unmature (M8)
3) launch it but then no follow up (D system)
4) skip without any follow up (DMR and R system)

I call all of these not meeting the expectations of customers, who believe in a company and their products and abilities. But what has always happened in the background were announcements and statements by leading employees and by the CEOs being in charge at these times. And these statements were most of time misleading.

So in general I could call that also vapourware, because even if you bring a product which then does not meet the expectations on a broad base, is at least not better, sometimes even worse than vapurware!

So Carsten, how many of the products did you own and were you directly affected by the flaws - M8, DMR, D System, R System???? If you can answer that you owned all of them and were burned by all of them (like I was) then I would accept your comments and even apologize! :eek:

Otherwise - I am really sorry - you do not know what you are talking about here and better stop :(
 
Last edited:

Paratom

Well-known member
Really sad to see all this companies to struggle so hard. Lets not make final conclusions before there are final facts. Too much speculation could make life even harder for them.
 

carstenw

Active member
I would really like to hear from Francke & Heidecke, and a sign of life from Sinar would also be comforting. These companies all have a tendency to be too quiet, especially when there is rampant speculation due to various factors. I am not particularly worried about Phase One, Hasselblad or Leica at this time.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
@ Tom

I am not a brand guy either, I have owned almost every brand and they all have their advantages and disadvantages.

I care meanwhile only for the best (or almost best) and of course affordable solution for me and this can be from any brand. So also my time I stay with one brand is always limited. There are exceptions like the M System and this was also the reason I was going through all the issues with my M( - starting from having each lens individually adjusted in Solms (sometimes twice) etc etc.

So which system I will chose for MF is still undetermined, but as Leica and all their decisions have really burned me hard in the past years (maybe my own stupidity because I was relying on them) there is definitely a certain amount of reservation for this company from my side. So they need to prove to be ok and if I am still available for an MF system then, it might work out.

Has nothing to do with the fact that I like some of their approaches especially in the S System Nothing else I said and I am still fascinated by their optical quality.

What is so difficult here to understand?

I really stop my conversation WRT this topic now because it is waste of time. Some people want to listen, some not and some do not even want to hear anything bad about Leica. Everyone as he/she likes, I could not care less actually ;)
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Peter, I agree with you : this seems to end in an useless discussion, you have your opinion - and it seems its not possible to go into a fact based discussion.
So lets move on. Tom:cool:
 

dfarkas

Workshop Member
WRT Hasselblad and P1 expresstrain - you will never get this from Leica! Especially not if they keep going with their 3-system strategy (M, R-follow up, S). They are just a tiny company, with admittedly GREAT ideas and thoughts and skills, but they only can do SO much .....
Just to clarify....

Number of employees:
Hasselblad ~100
Phase One ~120
Leica ~1100

Leica is about ten times larger than either Phase or Hasselblad. To put this in perspective, Leica has invested the equivalent of Phase One's annual gross revenue in R&D for the S2.

In the same speech that Dr. Kaufmann mentioned Leica Cinema, he also mentioned a 0.95 Noctilux (I just received my first shipment last week) as one of about 24 new lenses Leica would be releasing in the following 2-3 years (this was Oct 2007). Since then, they have worked towards delivering on that promise with 10 new M lenses, 9 S lenses that will be released in the coming months, and "something else" to follow (most likely AF R lenses). These new lenses aren't just rehashes and updates of older or existing lenses. Each one is brand new and pushes the bounds of what is possible in those given focal lengths. I'm not sure anyone realizes it, but this "express train" of lens designs outpaces Nikon, Canon, Mamiya, and Hasselblad combined.

I also must say that the three system approach is what I think gives Leica more stability in the market. If you are Leaf, you have one product in several flavors. You make and sell digital backs. There is no diversification. If sales of MFDB slump (they have) you have one choice - cut prices. At a certain point, you can't cut anymore and you've now devalued your product. Revenues are down which hinder future R&D. Without R&D, you can't be competitive by offering innovative and attractive products.

Leica is well-diversified. The M system has a large following. Leica makes digital and analog cameras, 20 M lenses, and a plethora of accessories. Their sport optics business is strong with an entirely new line of binoculars and spotting scopes. The R system is on hiatus/in development right now until after the S2, but should be in full swing within a year. And, compact digital cameras continue to be a great line for them. The D-Lux 4 has been a run-away success.

So, Leica has size, resources, fully-funded R&D, a well-diversified business model, an owner who is more focused on long term strategy than short-term quarterly results, and a company with a motivation to succeed. I'd take that bet over a company with lagging sales, stalled R&D, layoffs, drastic price slashing and a limited product portfolio.

David
 

carstenw

Active member
In the same speech that Dr. Kaufmann mentioned Leica Cinema, he also mentioned a 0.95 Noctilux (I just received my first shipment last week) as one of about 24 new lenses Leica would be releasing in the following 2-3 years (this was Oct 2007). Since then, they have worked towards delivering on that promise with 10 new M lenses, 9 S lenses that will be released in the coming months, and "something else" to follow (most likely AF R lenses).
I wonder if the missing lenses and the "Leica Cinema" comment are related?

So, Leica has size, resources, fully-funded R&D, a well-diversified business model, an owner who is more focused on long term strategy than short-term quarterly results, and a company with a motivation to succeed. I'd take that bet over a company with lagging sales, stalled R&D, layoffs, drastic price slashing and a limited product portfolio.
(for Peter) Again, Hasselblad, as strong as they look, don't to my knowledge have any diversification. They have the strongest system on the market today, and they totally dominate the two-tone camera market, but if MFDBs slump, they can be hit hard just like Leaf. They will be able to survive longer, but not forever. I hope that no other companies go under, and that Leaf finds a solution.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I wrote 25 comments and deleted them all. I just can't say something that is rational at this point. I honestly can't even make a joke out of it.:banghead::banghead::banghead::wtf::bugeyes::eek:
 
Top